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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:46 pm 
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This could be really really bad. As long as they don't get chinook, worst case is she cauterizes the hive with a long gun. So its not the end of the world but still really really bad. Plus jump star prime likely still has shields.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:07 am 
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Hives get preyed upon by things which take advantage of the hive structure. So it would make sense for this hive to at least be aware of the possibility of infection, and possible have some kind of defense.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:04 am 
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I imagine Chinook is defended, but that doesn't mean it's good enough to ward off these attackers.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:47 am 
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TBH, I'm more concerned with operational security angle. If Ot-Skadak are that linked, then it's reasonable assumption that everyone inside can full of sky knows everything about each Tough's op.



EDIT: Oh, boy. Was I wrong...


Last edited by M[i]ech on Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:57 pm 
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So, if we assume one tool in the enemies arsenal is the ability and willingness to hijack your brain, control your body, and leave a saved copy for later upload into the All-Star...

And if we assume they're also pretty good at hacking AI's and other synthetic intelligences....

and if we assume that their primary mission is still the destruction of that archive....

What exactly are they trying to ACHIEVE right now?

It almost looks like they want to capture and suborn every useful military asset on or near that base, then use those assets to verify complete destruction of the archive...

But I'm not completely convinced that suborning a handful of hive-warriors using physical access would actually allow them to leapfrog into suborning the rest of the hive.

On the other hand, it might allow them to read out any local logs of security data the hive-warriors had on file when captured, and it might allow them to listen in to large portions of the Hive-mind's ongoing data traffic, and MAYBE they could insert a few "innocuous requests" into the datastream, to be carried out by other portions of the Hive that weren't really paying attention...

But that really doesn't sound THAT bad. One more annoyance, but probably manageable.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:17 pm 
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Krennson wrote:
...But I'm not completely convinced that suborning a handful of hive-warriors using physical access would actually allow them to leapfrog into suborning the rest of the hive.

On the other hand, it might allow them to read out any local logs of security data the hive-warriors had on file when captured, and it might allow them to listen in to large portions of the Hive-mind's ongoing data traffic, and MAYBE they could insert a few "innocuous requests" into the datastream, to be carried out by other portions of the Hive that weren't really paying attention...

But that really doesn't sound THAT bad. One more annoyance, but probably manageable.

No, no, no! Remember how the Esperin were uber hackers who could penetrate anything through even the most remote connection? Remember how they were able to totally hack everything based only on data connections. Remember how they were totally unstoppable.

You may have trouble remembering because none of that happened in the actual comic. But here in the discussion group the Toughs were totally doomed because their opponents were completely unstoppable infiltrators and/or hackers.

This is even worse. Obviously the Allstar can hack absolutely anything without needing any actual access. The fact that the Allstar isn't actually sending out any of its real forces (resorting to using a just recruited survey guy) and has communication cutouts that prevent it from actually using its resources to hack the hive mind is irrelevant.

Don't bother with your "logic" that the hive minds are presumably very well defended against hacking and the Allstar is working remotely. This isn't the comic, it's a discussion thread, so the Toughs are DOOMED! DOOMED I say!

Note: Since there are multiple hive minds it should follow that the individual minds are approximately as resistant to being hacked as Schlock is to being eaten by hostile nanos, and for much the same reason, an evolved intelligence needs to have at least some minor resistance to the most obvious route of predation by similar organisms. The Allstar may be able to learn quite a bit via monitoring the hypernode communications of the hives, and the allstar itself could probably hack such a mind given access to a substantial number of nodes, but the alstar isn't directly on the field and IMAO nothing we've got evidence of being deployed should be able to crack a hive mind.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:30 pm 
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Honestly I'm not sure why the discussion is even going in the direction of hacking the hive mind. The last comic was specifically discussing that the warrior drones are remote controlled. And they're linked to the engineers on the ship. If anything is getting hacked it's going to be one or both set of drones. Not the hive mind all the way back on eina afa which is of no real use to the infiltrators. I'd also agree that any distributed intelligence like the hive mind is going to be pretty resistant to hacking and control. Even if individual drones are vulnerable the rest of the mind is going to note the discrepancies and start taking countermeasures before a hacker can gain any major control. If anything I'd say a biological mind, like the original exploration crew, is far more vulnerable as that sort of thing isn't something they evolved to defend against.

I will note however that unlike the Essperin the allstar infiltrators have demonstrated a real ability to hack just about anything if given time to do so. What I'm not sure of is if they can do so just instantly in the middle of the fight. But them overwhelming captain Tagon's position and then suborning the warrior drones seems like a real possibility. Just they'll have to win that fight first.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:59 pm 
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Doug Lampert wrote:
No, no, no! Remember how the Esperin were uber hackers who could penetrate anything through even the most remote connection?

--snip--

Things that the all-star has done in-comic:
* Uploaded people during the course of a planetary apocalypse.
* Hijacked a ship and brains via a data handshake
* Hijacked people by breacher missile.
* Hijacked every bit of heavy equipment on this loading dock

And of course, we saw some of the all-star residents say that the infiltrators were going to "Suborn everything." The idea that everything includes people is clearly not unreasonable.

EDIT: And poof. Done and Done.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:42 pm 
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JohnSmith wrote:
Doug Lampert wrote:
No, no, no! Remember how the Esperin were uber hackers who could penetrate anything through even the most remote connection?

--snip--

Things that the all-star has done in-comic:
* Uploaded people during the course of a planetary apocalypse.
* Hijacked a ship and brains via a data handshake
* Hijacked people by breacher missile.
* Hijacked every bit of heavy equipment on this loading dock

And of course, we saw some of the all-star residents say that the infiltrators were going to "Suborn everything." The idea that everything includes people is clearly not unreasonable.

EDIT: And poof. Done and Done.


Note however that the first instance was done using Allstar ships specifically built for that purpose, and the next two were done next to the Allstar itself with all its massive computing capabilities. The last instance was done after the infiltrators had a full day to set things up undisturbed.

What we have not seen is the Allstar infiltrators instantly suborn hostile units. And given that by this point they are using standard galactic equipment rather than anything they brought with them I find the idea that they could do so questionable. The best contemporary hackers we have seen are Para and the Essperin and they all need hardware access to work their hacks.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:47 pm 
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Update: I figured out why they would want to hack the Hive, or at least a small portion of it.

They're hoping to steal one of Chinook's long guns. With that, that can either ash the entire ice vault, or else trigger mutually assured galactic destruction, and reboot civilization.

Krennson wrote:
So, if we assume one tool in the enemies arsenal is the ability and willingness to hijack your brain, control your body, and leave a saved copy for later upload into the All-Star...

And if we assume they're also pretty good at hacking AI's and other synthetic intelligences....

and if we assume that their primary mission is still the destruction of that archive....

What exactly are they trying to ACHIEVE right now?

It almost looks like they want to capture and suborn every useful military asset on or near that base, then use those assets to verify complete destruction of the archive...

But I'm not completely convinced that suborning a handful of hive-warriors using physical access would actually allow them to leapfrog into suborning the rest of the hive.

On the other hand, it might allow them to read out any local logs of security data the hive-warriors had on file when captured, and it might allow them to listen in to large portions of the Hive-mind's ongoing data traffic, and MAYBE they could insert a few "innocuous requests" into the datastream, to be carried out by other portions of the Hive that weren't really paying attention...

But that really doesn't sound THAT bad. One more annoyance, but probably manageable.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:58 pm 
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Krennson wrote:
Update: I figured out why they would want to hack the Hive, or at least a small portion of it.

They're hoping to steal one of Chinook's long guns. With that, that can either ash the entire ice vault, or else trigger mutually assured galactic destruction, and reboot civilization.

Krennson wrote:
So, if we assume one tool in the enemies arsenal is the ability and willingness to hijack your brain, control your body, and leave a saved copy for later upload into the All-Star...

And if we assume they're also pretty good at hacking AI's and other synthetic intelligences....

and if we assume that their primary mission is still the destruction of that archive....

What exactly are they trying to ACHIEVE right now?

It almost looks like they want to capture and suborn every useful military asset on or near that base, then use those assets to verify complete destruction of the archive...

But I'm not completely convinced that suborning a handful of hive-warriors using physical access would actually allow them to leapfrog into suborning the rest of the hive.

On the other hand, it might allow them to read out any local logs of security data the hive-warriors had on file when captured, and it might allow them to listen in to large portions of the Hive-mind's ongoing data traffic, and MAYBE they could insert a few "innocuous requests" into the datastream, to be carried out by other portions of the Hive that weren't really paying attention...

But that really doesn't sound THAT bad. One more annoyance, but probably manageable.


See the problem with that is that they have no way of knowing that Chinook has long guns. That's a secret that the Urtheep explorers wouldn't have known as the Toughs have worked very hard to keep it. And it's not as if the infiltrators have gotten access to the Tough's data at any point. Just because the Allstar knows that the current galactic civilization has long guns doesn't mean they know who exactly has them. Credomar and Lota are the far more likely indicators.

And really it's not necessary to account for their actions. Just suborning the Cynthetic Certainty would provide plenty of firepower for their needs.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:11 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
Krennson wrote:
Update: I figured out why they would want to hack the Hive, or at least a small portion of it.

They're hoping to steal one of Chinook's long guns. With that, that can either ash the entire ice vault, or else trigger mutually assured galactic destruction, and reboot civilization.

Krennson wrote:
So, if we assume one tool in the enemies arsenal is the ability and willingness to hijack your brain, control your body, and leave a saved copy for later upload into the All-Star...

And if we assume they're also pretty good at hacking AI's and other synthetic intelligences....

and if we assume that their primary mission is still the destruction of that archive....

What exactly are they trying to ACHIEVE right now?

It almost looks like they want to capture and suborn every useful military asset on or near that base, then use those assets to verify complete destruction of the archive...

But I'm not completely convinced that suborning a handful of hive-warriors using physical access would actually allow them to leapfrog into suborning the rest of the hive.

On the other hand, it might allow them to read out any local logs of security data the hive-warriors had on file when captured, and it might allow them to listen in to large portions of the Hive-mind's ongoing data traffic, and MAYBE they could insert a few "innocuous requests" into the datastream, to be carried out by other portions of the Hive that weren't really paying attention...

But that really doesn't sound THAT bad. One more annoyance, but probably manageable.


See the problem with that is that they have no way of knowing that Chinook has long guns. That's a secret that the Urtheep explorers wouldn't have known as the Toughs have worked very hard to keep it. And it's not as if the infiltrators have gotten access to the Tough's data at any point. Just because the Allstar knows that the current galactic civilization has long guns doesn't mean they know who exactly has them. Credomar and Lota are the far more likely indicators.

And really it's not necessary to account for their actions. Just suborning the Cynthetic Certainty would provide plenty of firepower for their needs.


They would have found out about Chinook's long guns as soon as they hacked the first Warrior-drone on the ground: The hive-mind almost certainly knows about it, and Warrior-drones deployed with Tagon's Toughs presumably have local copies of a briefing about the Tough's history with the long guns.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:28 pm 
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Krennson wrote:

They would have found out about Chinook's long guns as soon as they hacked the first Warrior-drone on the ground: The hive-mind almost certainly knows about it, and Warrior-drones deployed with Tagon's Toughs presumably have local copies of a briefing about the Tough's history with the long guns.


First of all you're saying that they would be attempting this whole plan based on the information they would have gotten from hacking the warriors who only just now got deployed. Second again I don't think they can hack combat drones on the fly like that. Warrior drones would be exactly the platforms most hardened against outside hacking. Can they be hacked? Probably, but not without some sort of sign, and likely not without hardware access.

Finally you assume that the warriors would know about the long guns. And honestly I doubt they would. I doubt most of the Tough's grunts have been briefed, and while the engineers probably do know why would they upload sensitive information like that into the warrior drones who don't need and are most likely to be destroyed and captured. Remember these are drones, they aren't full entities in their own right so they don't need full separate copies of all the information the hive mind has on the Toughs. Just whatever they need to operate effectively.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:32 pm 
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Long gun shots are untraceable, if the all star really wanted to use one I am sure they have their own. They know about the "end guns" after all.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:45 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
Krennson wrote:

They would have found out about Chinook's long guns as soon as they hacked the first Warrior-drone on the ground: The hive-mind almost certainly knows about it, and Warrior-drones deployed with Tagon's Toughs presumably have local copies of a briefing about the Tough's history with the long guns.


First of all you're saying that they would be attempting this whole plan based on the information they would have gotten from hacking the warriors who only just now got deployed. Second again I don't think they can hack combat drones on the fly like that. Warrior drones would be exactly the platforms most hardened against outside hacking. Can they be hacked? Probably, but not without some sort of sign, and likely not without hardware access.

Finally you assume that the warriors would know about the long guns. And honestly I doubt they would. I doubt most of the Tough's grunts have been briefed, and while the engineers probably do know why would they upload sensitive information like that into the warrior drones who don't need and are most likely to be destroyed and captured. Remember these are drones, they aren't full entities in their own right so they don't need full separate copies of all the information the hive mind has on the Toughs. Just whatever they need to operate effectively.


I think at this point the enemy is hacking anything they can as a matter of policy. Based on today's strip, there's certainly reason to believe that the enemy has gotten close enough to the warriors to hack them, and to hack Phil in turn.

I'm guessing that if the Enemy did not already know that Cindercone had Long Guns, they would have figured that out as soon as they hacked the first warrior drone. And that as soon as they knew that, they addded a new contigency plan to their arsenal, based on hacking enough drones in Eina-Eifa to capture a long gun.

Also, I'm not certain how the Hive Mind actually distributes its intelligence: based on the events of the Oafan visit to earth, it appears that even small swarms of miniature scout drones are capable of operating a collective intelligence between them.

My operating assumption is that ALL drones, of any type, including Phil, have local copies of any and all relevant data to their current assignment, sufficient for ANY network of drones in local space to operate a shared intelligence which can make informed decisions. So all drones assigned to the toughs know everything the Hive Mind knows about the Toughs, because any combination of surviving drones in or near the Cynthetic Certaintity might, at any time, need to form an ad-hoc decision-making network.

I'm also assuming that the Hive Mind has never really needed to worry about internal information security or hacking defenses until now... All their protocols are probably based around the thorough and efficient caching of relevant information, instead.

Granted, I'm making a LOT of assumptions, and am probably wrong about half of them. But my logic does appear to be defensible.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:48 pm 
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Warior4356 wrote:
Long gun shots are untraceable, if the all star really wanted to use one I am sure they have their own. They know about the "end guns" after all.


I'm assuming that the infiltration team was not issued long-gun access by the All-Star because they didn't need it and weren't authorized to use it.

And that the infiltration team decided to steal a long-gun anyway.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:17 pm 
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Krennson wrote:
Warior4356 wrote:
Long gun shots are untraceable, if the all star really wanted to use one I am sure they have their own. They know about the "end guns" after all.


I'm assuming that the infiltration team was not issued long-gun access by the All-Star because they didn't need it and weren't authorized to use it.

And that the infiltration team decided to steal a long-gun anyway.


That one is quite likily.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:29 am 
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I'm not even gonna drive out in the Epipleptic forest y'all have decided to camp in, but i am gonna start whacking some of your crazy off at the knees:


JohnSmith wrote:
Things that the all-star has done in-comic:
* Uploaded people during the course of a planetary apocalypse.

Yes, absolutely.

Quote:
* Hijacked a ship and brains via a data handshake

Indetermined.

Quote:
* Hijacked people by breacher missile.

Indetermined.

Quote:
* Hijacked every bit of heavy equipment on this loading dock

Not even close. Because I'd call the doors 'heavy' and they were never hacked...

Also the All Star team is down to P.E.T.s, so I'm guessing it's out of the heavy stuff, and is just keeping the Toughs occupied while it finishes erasing the hard storage.


Quote:
And of course, we saw some of the all-star residents say that the infiltrators were going to "Suborn everything." The idea that everything includes people is clearly not unreasonable.

Ya, you're gonna need to cite that one because... if it's the comic I think it was that's not what was said.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:22 am 
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* Hijacked via data handshake
* Hijacked by breacher
* Hijacked all the heavy equipment
* Suborn many things. And yes, I misremembered the exact phrasing, but the implication is similar. There's fine reason to think people are included in that list of targets.


To cut off "but the actual hijacks aren't shown!" the last thing the crew of the freighter saw was the breacher going for his face. There's not a lot it could be except a payload delivery system. Any of these could be twisted to mean other things, but overall, they certainly give the impression of a group capable of ad-hoc brain hijacking.
I know you like arguing for the sake of arguing eeyore, but anybody saying "we don't have any reason to think that the all-star can hack people!" doesn't have a leg to stand on.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:33 am 
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JohnSmith wrote:
* Hijacked via data handshake
* Hijacked by breacher
* Hijacked all the heavy equipment
* Suborn many things. And yes, I misremembered the exact phrasing, but the implication is similar. There's fine reason to think people are included in that list of targets.


To cut off "but the actual hijacks aren't shown!" the last thing the crew of the freighter saw was the breacher going for his face. There's not a lot it could be except a payload delivery system. Any of these could be twisted to mean other things, but overall, they certainly give the impression of a group capable of ad-hoc brain hijacking.
I know you like arguing for the sake of arguing eeyore, but anybody saying "we don't have any reason to think that the all-star can hack people!" doesn't have a leg to stand on.


Okay the problem is that the only time the Allstar has hacked someone at a distance it was with their own equipment. Whereas at this point the infiltrators are working within the limitations of Urtheep equipment. If they could hack people at a distance and instantly, then why are they even fighting Tagon. They could have hacked the ground crew, used the warrior drones as a door to the engineers and been done with it.

Or better yet, hack Tagon and simply use his captain's authority to get what they want. It's not that the allstar can't hack people. It's that we haven't seen the infiltrators demonstrate the same capability. Things would have been a lot simpler for them if they could have simply hijacked the dock workers and spread through the station. Or hit the Daggermother when she was defending the vault.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:12 am 
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The best evidence that they aren't brainhacking at a distance is that they are using an armed attack. With that sort of brain hacking, you find out who is in command, convince them the data is better off destroyed, then you disappear. Starting the whole arc off with "we expunged the data because it seemed like a trap, here is your fee that the person who used to be in charge agreed to, now go away" wouldn't be as fun though.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:32 pm 
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JohnSmith wrote:

That's a lot of reaching you're doing.

I'm not saying your assumptions are incorrect. I'm simply pointing out that you are making assumptions based on no evidence other than "I think it had to happen this way".

There are other options.

Quote:

So... that's all the heavy equipment then? I rather doubt it.

Quote:
* Suborn many things. And yes, I misremembered the exact phrasing, but the implication is similar. There's fine reason to think people are included in that list of targets.

I'm pointing out "You are reaching conclusions not supported by evidence". In this case a misreading.

Quote:
To cut off "but the actual hijacks aren't shown!" the last thing the crew of the freighter saw was the breacher going for his face. There's not a lot it could be except a payload delivery system.

Yes, the payload being what a missile normally carries (explosive, death, carnage, etc). Meanwhile they get uploaded via other means (By say nannies that were teraported aboard. Or some magic upload ray the All-Star team has).

Sure. It's pretty safe to say the breacher carried upload nannies (but then... they spread so quickly as to stop the formation of short-term memory? questioninglook.jpg). My point, again, isn't that you're wrong, but that you are basing your assumptions on what you think has happened, as exactly as you put it "the actual hijacks aren't shown".

Quote:
Any of these could be twisted to mean other things, but overall, they certainly give the impression of a group capable of ad-hoc brain hijacking.

upraisedeyebrow.jpg

Quote:
I know you like arguing for the sake of arguing eeyore, but anybody saying "we don't have any reason to think that the all-star can hack people!" doesn't have a leg to stand on.

And where did I say that? Once again, you are making assumptions based on non-existent evidence.


It's not the conclusion "they were uploaded/hijacked*" that I'm questioning, it's your shaky assumptions about the methods. You're building theories on a questionable foundation.

Breaking it down (with an equal lack of evidence):

*Hijacked via data handshake
Most certainly not. As I pointed out months ago the Jozangles Purse was standing on the All-Star, it had physical access. The simplest explanation is subornation via infiltration nannies. At which point the All-Star would know the Tzundigo was inbound and when it would arrive...

*Hijacked by breacher
This one is pretty possible. I doubt(ed) it as it means the payload had to be capable of downloading faster than memory is formed... however... as we've since seen that the AST has magic upload rays, this one becomes more probable. It's still not in evidence though. The crew of the Tzundigo could easily have been uploaded before they were fired on.

Also... they weren't hijacked at all. Just uploaded and killed.

*Hijacked all the heavy equipment
Already pointed out... 'All' is probably more than reaching.

*Suborn everything
You've walked this one back one step. The problem here is... there are a lot more steps you've skipped. As Arcanestomper and DrCron note: They aren't/haven't doing it, so why continue presuming they can?

My evidence? The door. They couldn't hack a door, so... yeah, I'm doubting they have magic brain-hacking capacity at their disposal (however they do have machine hacking capacity... and the Ot-Skadak are more machine than meat...).

Of course everything the AS Ground Team has done so far has been diversion stacked on diversion hidden behind diversion to cover a diversion so a diversion could go on... so... the failure to hack a door may simply have been more of the same.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:49 pm 
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Quote:
I'm not saying your assumptions are incorrect. I'm simply pointing out that you are making assumptions based on no evidence other than "I think it had to happen this way".
Take your words out of my mouth, thanks.

What I said was that it was not unreasonable to think that the All-Star infiltrators could or would attempt to suborn people as well as equipment. This was in response to Doug going all "you idiots and your wild ideas."

I considered it up in the air what would happen. Except, of course that today's comic is such an obvious tell that if the Bosun doesn't kill all the hive-mind critters on board he should probably be shot himself. (If the engineer HASN'T been compromised, I refer him to Ennesby's observation: Announcing that you've been hacked has operational consequences.)

As for your specific arguments...
Quote:
That's a lot of reaching you're doing.

Wait, that's not an argument!

Quote:
So... that's all the heavy equipment then? I rather doubt it.
Pedantic AND pointless. What are you looking for, evidence that they've got the cranes too?

Quote:
I'm pointing out "You are reaching conclusions not supported by evidence". In this case a misreading.
You're going to have to explain how I'm misreading anything. "They're going to suborn something." That's pretty straighforward. Action word "suborn," traditionally defined as "bribe or otherwise induce (someone) to commit an unlawful act such as perjury." In the science fiction context, meaning to forcefully take over something. Subject word is "something", meaning a thing.

Quote:
Yes, the payload being what a missile normally carries (explosive, death, carnage, etc). Meanwhile they get uploaded via other means (By say nannies that were teraported aboard. Or some magic upload ray the All-Star team has).
If it was explosive, mr "you-shot-me-in-the-face" would be unlikely to still be there... It's not unreasonable to think that the breacher is what delivered the scanning mcguffin.
Quote:
It's pretty safe to say the breacher carried upload nannies

Quote:
upraisedeyebrow.jpg

you... arg...
For the love of dog be consistent! You JUST agreed that the breacher payload was probably an upload mechanism!
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And where did I say that?

Oh, I see. Did you not notice that I was responding to Doug, who DID say that?
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standing on the All-Star

Could be. The explicit "They granted us seemingly full access" is a clear honeypot though.
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The crew of the Tzundigo could easily have been uploaded before they were fired on.

"The last thing I remember is you shooting me in the face." The timeline given is that the breacher ended that particular lizard-thing's stream of consciousness.
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'All' is probably more than reaching.
Pendantic and meaningless.
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You've walked this one back one step.
I haven't walked anything back. I just misremembered the line. The point is that the All Star seems to think that the infiltration crew seems to be intending to suborn things to reach the icebox.
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My evidence? The door.
So they can hack a few hundred war machines, but not a door.
...
Right.
The door is either Idiot Ball "We forgot because the plot said we were discovered now" or "We intended to be caught around now."

And now just let me repeat so you don't forget it: The specifics DON'T MATTER. What matters is the impression we have been given of the All-Star's capabilities. Thinking that they might suborn a person is reasonable. This is doubly demonstrated by the fact that today's comic telegraphed one of the engineers being suborned. That or the hive mind discovering bad jokes, in which case Howard is quite intentionally trying to make us think the engineer is suborned.

(As far as the whole "They don't have the equipment!" line of reasoning goes, that's a great point! Which is maybe why it's been discussed how the warriors are connected to the engineers, who have a hypernode link to the hive. Last time we saw a group mind it was by radio, and that seems likely here, too. I wonder if the infiltrators have had the chance to build a radio...)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:04 pm 
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Too Late


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:36 pm 
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evileeyore wrote:
My evidence? The door. They couldn't hack a door, so... yeah, I'm doubting they have magic brain-hacking capacity at their disposal (however they do have machine hacking capacity... and the Ot-Skadak are more machine than meat...).


Didn't read entire discussion, so just chiming in, but if it's the door I think you mean, then there's nothing to hack because controls have been slagged. Those doors need to be fixed before anyone can hack them.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:02 pm 
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Actually considering this whole conversation I'm going to put out a crazy theory. The whole Ot-Skadak hacking is just misdirection. Another layer of diversion to maneuver the Toughs into position.

The real hack was way back when Neeka was picking through the robots brain matter. Her spreading her internals into the ship's trash system was the second stage. And the infiltrators are finally gaining control, or choosing to exert it.

I like this theory better because it both gives them a longer timeframe to conduct the hack, as well as physical access rather than the supposed wireless hacking of the Ot-Skadat.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:17 pm 
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JohnSmith wrote:
What I said was that it was not unreasonable to think that the All-Star infiltrators could or would attempt to suborn people as well as equipment.

Which isn't what I was responding.

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Pedantic AND pointless. What are you looking for, evidence that they've got the cranes too?

Since that would support your statement, yes.

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You're going to have to explain how I'm misreading anything. "They're going to suborn something."

Which is still not what you claimed. You claimed "All the things". All.

All.

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you... arg...
For the love of dog be consistent! You JUST agreed that the breacher payload was probably an upload mechanism!

I was. I was taking umbrage to the use of "twisted" as though someone (obviously by your statement not you, were twisting things). Did you even read what I had quoted? Does the bold function not work on the posts on your screen?

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And where did I say that?

Oh, I see. Did you not notice that I was responding to Doug, who DID say that?

Then you should confine such a response to that individual and not say, slap it down in a sentence in which you are directly responding to me?

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Could be. The explicit "They granted us seemingly full access" is a clear honeypot though.

Absolutely. To buy tme. For the subornation to take effect.

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The crew of the Tzundigo could easily have been uploaded before they were fired on.

"The last thing I remember is you shooting me in the face." The timeline given is that the breacher ended that particular lizard-thing's stream of consciousness.

Right. I concede that point. It's highly likely the breacher delivered an upload payload.




M[i]ech wrote:
Didn't read entire discussion, so just chiming in, but if it's the door I think you mean, then there's nothing to hack because controls have been slagged. Those doors need to be fixed before anyone can hack them.

Well yes. They were slagged because it was trying to use the door. It failed.


(I forgot why the door got slagged... and had misremembered thinking the bot was trying to hack the door when the controls got slagged)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:38 pm 
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I respond to Doug ranting about how we're crazy to think that the all-star can suborn people. You jump in with,
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I'm not even gonna drive out in the Epipleptic forest y'all have decided to camp in, but i am gonna start whacking some of your crazy off at the knees:

And then jump into my points about why it's reasonable to think that the all-star can suborn people. You then somehow take issue with my point that the info and impression we've been given, is that the all-star can suborn people. Mostly by arguing that my wording is not precise enough, apparently?
You get really fixated on doors and cranes, even though that has nothing to do with the actual argument.

Sorry Eeyore. This has not been one of your finer arguments.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:24 am 
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JohnSmith wrote:
You then somehow take issue with my point that the info and impression we've been given, is that the all-star can suborn people.

You all (pluralistically) were building a house of cards on a foundation of sand.

I was attacking the foundational points. The "hijacking via the handshake protocol", the "hijacking via the breacher missile", "all the heavy equipment", "suborning everything"... that these were shaky data points.

I "wasn't driving out into the Epileptic Forest" was to mean "I'm not chasing down the end point of this theory", to wit that the All-Star Team are master brain hackers that can brain hack anything and that the entire plan was to somehow lure the Ot-Skadak out to hack Chinook via the hive...

Again as I've mentioned in every response to you (aside from the first one), I have no issue with the fact that the AL players are crazy good at the meat hacking game.

My issue was with you taking liberties in deciding what was evident in comic and what wasn't.

Pedantic you say? Absolutely.

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Mostly by arguing that my wording is not precise enough, apparently?

No... again that you are skipping steps. Deciding what happened when it was never shown.

We still don't know how Jozangle's Purse was suborned.
It's not clear (but I agree highly suggested) that the crew of the Tzundigo was uploaded (not hijacked) via the breacher missile.
You brought up the cranes, but yes, that points to sloppy reasoning on your part claiming "all" the heavy equipment was hacked.
Misremembering a line that you were using as defining proof of the theory?

I'm fine with you raising up a shaky forest of theories... I was just pointing out the soil you were using was riddled with bad logic.






Mostly I strongly doubt that brain hacking will feature any more heavily than it has. The last three out of four stories have heavily featured brain-hacking, the ramifications, and the fallout of it. It's time for a change.

I didn't feel like wading in to the theory fight, but saw an area I could sink a few counter-points into.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:42 pm 
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evileeyore wrote:
Mostly I strongly doubt that brain hacking will feature any more heavily than it has. The last three out of four stories have heavily featured brain-hacking, the ramifications, and the fallout of it. It's time for a change.

If one viewed the teraport in that light, that would read
"The last 5 books have heavily featured teraport usage in fights, the ramifications, and the fallout of it. It's time for a change."

And yet we are still having it featured significantly in all operations, up to and including Tagon dying to clear a room full of teraport cages last book.


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