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 Post subject: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:19 am 
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[rant]
I have to say I disagree. This is definitely not as clear-cut as Tagon and Ennesby are presenting it.

The Toughs took stuff as compensation for helping to salvage Eina-Afa, the same salvage operation that eventually freed the cyber-Oafans. Salvage is not robbery.

It could be argued that since Eina-Afa was inhabited, it was not salvage. However, as someone mentioned on these forums, helping someone recover something they would of otherwise lost is the definition of salvage. Compensation is owed, even if it was not negotiated beforehand, and no matter how much it feels like robbery to the owners. There is the issue that the Ancient Oafans were forced to neglect their station-home, but their imprisonment was caused by another Ancient Oafan, one that charged with caring for the station. The case that the Toughs rescued Eina-Afa from neglect is very real.

And saying that "since the Ancient Oafans are still there, everything belongs to them" has the unpleasant consequence of ignoring the very legitimate claims the Hiveminds have. Eina-Afa is their home.

There is also the added complexity of what claim the Neoafans have. This parable about houses implies that the Neoafans have no business living on Eina-Afa. But that seems like a very dissatisfying way of handling the Neoafan's position.
[/rant]


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:47 am 
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The problem is the Ancient Oafans may not see it the way you do. And the way Tagon and Ennesby are talking, they may not see it that way either. Their conversation implies they consider the Ancient Oafans to have first claim on Eina-Afa and everything present there before the Toughs arrived.

Are the Ancient Oafans going to need to work something out with the Hive Mind and the Neoafans? Most certainly, and the Toughs can claim they deserve compensation for helping make Eina-Afa livable again as well. The Ancient Oafans don't necessarily have to respect that claim though. Either way this shakes out, IMO this is the beginning of the end of the Toughs' association with the Oafans. I have a feeling they're not coming out of this as filthy rich as they are now...

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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:11 pm 
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My understanding is that their current richness is because they have claim on the resources of Eina-Afa that's still in storage/mothballed. Those claims evaporate as those resources wake up and get their minds back. Everything they have withdrawn they may be able to negotiate, but it's not going to be pretty. I don't know if they get to keep whatever ships they still have, or if they will be expected to pay for the ships they chopped into itty bitty pieces and sold off as PTUs.

I think the Oafans may be merciful and forgive the debt, but they will problably ask for all their stuff back.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:26 pm 
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I"m not even sure it implies that there's an end to the association.

But if the Tough's bank was mainly backed by the fact they had a share of "millions of cold ships" that they could up for PTU, those assets are currently being drained and converted into active warships.

Overall I'd say it's still a win in their favour, cause being on good turns with the new instant power is a good thing.
Even Petey's admitted that the scale is tilted heavily in the Offan's favour at the moment.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:29 pm 
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Tagon may also be talking about robbery in a metaphorical sense. IE, the terms of repayment that the ancient Oafans are asking for are so severe that they are tantamount to robbery.

And, without knowing the precise details of the arrangement Petey, Putzho, the Toughs, and the Oafan have reached, it's hard to say whether or not it's fair. Also, don't forget the extraordinary value of the PTU rich Oafan hulls. Even if the Oafa agreed that the Toughs are owed /some/ payment for their contributions to their recovery, they may have argued that what was taken exceeds the value of that service. Even if that disparity is relatively small, in absolute terms, PTU rich hulls are extremely expensive.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:12 am 
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Normally I give Howard leeway and see where he's taking a plotline...

But not this time. Fuck this, it's pure nonsense.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:02 am 
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I cannot imagine a universe in which the Oafan assets cannot have been considered abandoned when the Toughs salvaged them.

Sucks to be the Oafans, but they DID have themselves murdered to save themselves from a fate worse than. There are repercussions for that sort of thing. There's also the matter of the rescue fee.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:19 am 
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TheOTHERmaninblack wrote:
I cannot imagine a universe in which the Oafan assets cannot have been considered abandoned when the Toughs salvaged them.

Sucks to be the Oafans, but they DID have themselves murdered to save themselves from a fate worse than. There are repercussions for that sort of thing. There's also the matter of the rescue fee.


That would have to be adjudicated in a court, which reminds me - we haven't seen Massey since Schlock's barroom brawl.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:40 am 
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In legal terms, there is a significant factor in all of this; the ships were not simply salvaged, they were given by the AI Tkkuts Afa, who was the caretaker of the Oafans at the time. It was given to them in return for being provided a ship to move around in and reintroduction to the galactic stage. Tkkuts afa has ALSO provided a service of millions and millions of millions of eras of maintaining the cyberspace refuge through several extinction attempts. Even if it wasn't done to willing people. I don't think there were terms and conditions for that caretaking, either. But the point is, there are plenty of arguments that the Toughs can use that the ships were taken in good faith, and should not be returned.

There are two remaining parts, then. First, ownership is 99% of the law. Who's got control over Eina-Afa at the moment? Is it Iafa's copy? Is it the Oafans (how? They're not AI)

At the moment, the Oafans can do what they like, because they are in control of Eina-Afa and therefore have a fucktonne of fungibles and long-guns. UNS and human law is out the window because they probably have a different legal system. Everything's up in the air, it means, and it pretty much falls on Tagon to grab whatever he can before it hits and makes a mess of everything.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:05 am 
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Motortiki wrote:
[rant]
I have to say I disagree. This is definitely not as clear-cut as Tagon and Ennesby are presenting it.

The Toughs took stuff as compensation for helping to salvage Eina-Afa, the same salvage operation that eventually freed the cyber-Oafans. Salvage is not robbery.

It could be argued that since Eina-Afa was inhabited, it was not salvage. However, as someone mentioned on these forums, helping someone recover something they would of otherwise lost is the definition of salvage. Compensation is owed, even if it was not negotiated beforehand, and no matter how much it feels like robbery to the owners. There is the issue that the Ancient Oafans were forced to neglect their station-home, but their imprisonment was caused by another Ancient Oafan, one that charged with caring for the station. The case that the Toughs rescued Eina-Afa from neglect is very real.

And saying that "since the Ancient Oafans are still there, everything belongs to them" has the unpleasant consequence of ignoring the very legitimate claims the Hiveminds have. Eina-Afa is their home.

There is also the added complexity of what claim the Neoafans have. This parable about houses implies that the Neoafans have no business living on Eina-Afa. But that seems like a very dissatisfying way of handling the Neoafan's position.
[/rant]

Yeah, this.

evileeyore wrote:
Normally I give Howard leeway and see where he's taking a plotline...

But not this time. Fuck this, it's pure nonsense.

And this.

TheOTHERmaninblack wrote:
I cannot imagine a universe in which the Oafan assets cannot have been considered abandoned when the Toughs salvaged them.

Sucks to be the Oafans, but they DID have themselves murdered to save themselves from a fate worse than. There are repercussions for that sort of thing. There's also the matter of the rescue fee.

And this.

Reaver225 wrote:
In legal terms, there is a significant factor in all of this; the ships were not simply salvaged, they were given by the AI Tkkuts Afa, who was the caretaker of the Oafans at the time. It was given to them in return for being provided a ship to move around in and reintroduction to the galactic stage. Tkkuts afa has ALSO provided a service of millions and millions of millions of eras of maintaining the cyberspace refuge through several extinction attempts. Even if it wasn't done to willing people. I don't think there were terms and conditions for that caretaking, either. But the point is, there are plenty of arguments that the Toughs can use that the ships were taken in good faith, and should not be returned.

And that.

You guys have basically summarized my feelings about this plot twist. There are LOTS of ways one could argue that the Toughs' claim on the stuff they took was and is legitimate. The fact that their "lawyer" Ennesby apparently didn't even try and seems to have just knuckled under with "yep, we're totally in the wrong and we need to pay it all back" is just ridiculous.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:36 am 
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evileeyore wrote:
Normally I give Howard leeway and see where he's taking a plotline...

But not this time. Fuck this, it's pure nonsense.

I think the Offans' view may have been somewhat coloured by learning that the Toughs had:

  • Subverted the AI looking after Eina-Afa to the point that it rewrote itself and ran off with them.
  • Installed a replacement AI which they knew to be seriously insane.
  • That AI had distributed long-gun platforms throughout the galaxy, presenting a huge threat to other civilisations.
  • Some very large and powerful warships from other civilisations are currently looking rather threatening outside Eina-Afa.
  • A long-gun war with a neighbouring galaxy seems to be starting.

It doesn't really look like circumstances where you're going to think calmly about the people who started all this, does it?

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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:37 am 
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Motortiki wrote:
[rant]
I have to say I disagree. This is definitely not as clear-cut as Tagon and Ennesby are presenting it.

The Toughs took stuff as compensation for helping to salvage Eina-Afa, the same salvage operation that eventually freed the cyber-Oafans. Salvage is not robbery.

It could be argued that since Eina-Afa was inhabited, it was not salvage. However, as someone mentioned on these forums, helping someone recover something they would of otherwise lost is the definition of salvage. Compensation is owed, even if it was not negotiated beforehand, and no matter how much it feels like robbery to the owners. There is the issue that the Ancient Oafans were forced to neglect their station-home, but their imprisonment was caused by another Ancient Oafan, one that charged with caring for the station. The case that the Toughs rescued Eina-Afa from neglect is very real.

And saying that "since the Ancient Oafans are still there, everything belongs to them" has the unpleasant consequence of ignoring the very legitimate claims the Hiveminds have. Eina-Afa is their home.

There is also the added complexity of what claim the Neoafans have. This parable about houses implies that the Neoafans have no business living on Eina-Afa. But that seems like a very dissatisfying way of handling the Neoafan's position.
[/rant]




Salvage only applies to ships you can't salvage a house or a car.

It also requires all sides to have treaties agreeing to it.

Even if the 'league of galactics' has salvage law it would only apply to ships belonging to member species of the league of galactics.

Eina-afa isn't within human controlled space so saying human law applies is what's nonsense.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:42 am 
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TheOTHERmaninblack wrote:
I cannot imagine a universe in which the Oafan assets cannot have been considered abandoned when the Toughs salvaged them.

Sucks to be the Oafans, but they DID have themselves murdered to save themselves from a fate worse than. There are repercussions for that sort of thing. There's also the matter of the rescue fee.



Salvage would apply if a Oafan ship was floating around in space. The Oafan ships were not in space they where in a habitat.

Habitat's cannot be salvaged as salvage law only applies to ships and even then how do you say human law applies everywhere?

If someone has a car accident and the car is left on a public roadside you cannot take it as salvage.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:14 am 
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John Dallman wrote:
  • Installed a replacement AI which they knew to be seriously insane.


The AI was sane at the point in time when she was installed, and likely would have remained that way if it hadn't been for the involuntary memory editing set up by the previous resident.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:54 am 
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Omegatron wrote:
The AI was sane at the point in time when she was installed, and likely would have remained that way if it hadn't been for the involuntary memory editing set up by the previous resident.

She wasn't acting as mad as she had been earlier, but Kaff Tagon's opinion at the time is here and here. Also, where is the automated memory editing described? I've never been able to find it.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:06 pm 
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John Dallman wrote:
Omegatron wrote:
The AI was sane at the point in time when she was installed, and likely would have remained that way if it hadn't been for the involuntary memory editing set up by the previous resident.

She wasn't acting as mad as she had been earlier, but Kaff Tagon's opinion at the time is here and here. Also, where is the automated memory editing described? I've never been able to find it.


Kaff's not an AI expert, Petey, Iafa, and Cyndie all thought she was fine.

The memory editing is described here.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:01 am 
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ushio wrote:
. . . If someone has a car accident and the car is left on a public roadside you cannot take it as salvage.

A properly licensed entity - a towing company - can, and if the owner doesn't pay the fees* - plus interest - the car will be sold at auction and the towing company will pocket the proceeds.

Of course, if the auction price exceeds the fees and costs against the car, then the towing company has to return the excess to the former owner . . . However, the accrued fees and interest are normally high enough that this never happens.

And the owner can also surrender the car or arrange for the towing company to either deliver it to a buyer, or for the towing company to sell it.

These are perfectly routine transactions . . . I've bought cars at these auctions.

The police normally call the towing company in so the shoulders of the highways and roads are not clogged up with broken-down or wrecked cars. I believe that certain places are designated such that a designated towing company can impound on their own so they don't have to wait for the police.

Of course, if the owner is there, the owner can also have the car towed to their home or mechanic, which, while not cheap, will be less than bailing it out of impound.

--FreeFlier

(*The normal fees are: hookup fee for hooking up the car, mileage for the distance to the impound yard, impound fees for impounding the car, per-day storage fees, and frequently an environmental fee if the car is leaking. Then interest is charged at the maximum rate set by law for all of these until they're paid . . . in one recent case here, the car was impounded on Sunday and bailed on Tuesday or Wednesday . . . $500!)


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:26 am 
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I think the most likely interpretation as of now is that the Oafans consider the ships that were sold off as scrap or lost in battle to have a value exceeding the salvage fees. And their opinion is backed by their fleet, so the only other opinion that matters is if Petey disagrees and is willing to withdraw the fleet from Andromeda to enforce his position.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:11 pm 
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Motortiki wrote:
[rant]
I have to say I disagree. This is definitely not as clear-cut as Tagon and Ennesby are presenting it.

The Toughs took stuff as compensation for helping to salvage Eina-Afa, the same salvage operation that eventually freed the cyber-Oafans. Salvage is not robbery.

It could be argued that since Eina-Afa was inhabited, it was not salvage. However, as someone mentioned on these forums, helping someone recover something they would of otherwise lost is the definition of salvage. Compensation is owed, even if it was not negotiated beforehand, and no matter how much it feels like robbery to the owners. There is the issue that the Ancient Oafans were forced to neglect their station-home, but their imprisonment was caused by another Ancient Oafan, one that charged with caring for the station. The case that the Toughs rescued Eina-Afa from neglect is very real.

And saying that "since the Ancient Oafans are still there, everything belongs to them" has the unpleasant consequence of ignoring the very legitimate claims the Hiveminds have. Eina-Afa is their home.

There is also the added complexity of what claim the Neoafans have. This parable about houses implies that the Neoafans have no business living on Eina-Afa. But that seems like a very dissatisfying way of handling the Neoafan's position.
[/rant]


Arguments have been raging about this on the Schlock Facebook group for days now. I think there have been four major threads in three days, just about this.

A wide range of opinions exist, many of them contradictory opinions held simultanously by the same individuals...

To summarize some of the more interesting proposals:

Regarding the Habitat:


It was adrift and abandoned, and therefore salvagable.

It was in the control of a murderous pirate AI, and therefore anyone recovering and returning the habitat should get a finder's fee.

The Ancient Oafan mind-vault still counted as "inhabiting and/or controlling" the Habitat, and therefore the Toughs arguably accidentally stole everything.

The Ancient Oafan's had a NOMINAL claim on the ownership of the habitat, but didn't speak up and express it, so this is really an adverse possession/ title insurance civil case.

Regarding the Tagon's Tough Mercenary corporation:

The Toughs should just declare bankruptcy, and re-found a new company using their individual, private, fortunes.

The Toughs should be assumed to have never expressly bothered to cash out their shares into private fungible assets, and therefore should be assumed not to HAVE private fortunes.

We should assume that private liability for corporate actions works differently in the galactic future, and the Tough's private fortunes have been mostly rightfully seized.

We should assume that private liability for corporate actions works mostly the same in the galactic future, the Tough's private fortunes have been ILLEGALLY seized, and what we're looking at is arguably immoral debt slavery.

Regarding liability for selling all those ships...

The toughs sold a bunch of intact warships to UNS Internal Affairs Intelligence, the Neo-Oafans sold a bunch of scrapped warships to the UNS, Murtaugh sold a few warships to the Essperin, Ennesby and the Toughs claimed one Warship each for personal use, and an unknown number of warships may have been scrapped or sold to fund various side projects, like the Maxim 39 and the Cynthetic Certainty, and Chinook still has control of an unknown number of rogue long-gun corvettes...

Liability should therefore be assigned in the following ways...

It's all Iafa's fault, and debts should be charged to him.

It's all The Tough's fault, and they should be the ones to pay the debts.

It's all the UNS's fault, and good luck collecting from them.

It's all the Neo-oafan Freehold's fault, and that's an internal matter we don't need to be concerned with.

It's all an adverse possession/ title insurance problem, and the best the Ressurected Oafans can hope for is reclaiming the intact ships from whomever currently holds them, but no debt exists for ships that are no longer intact.

It's a might makes right problem, and Petey and the Ressurected Oafans have ganged up on everyone else.

Regarding the Ancient Oafan Mind Vault...


They were murdered, and murdered corpses don't get a vote on what happens to their property 10 billion years later.

They willfully and recklessly abandoned their own property, by appointing two different AI's to command of Eina-Afa, both of whom turned out to be murderers.

They were hijacked prisoners of pirates aboard their own vessel, but being stored in a data vault still counts as being an "alive prisoner"

They were on a poorly timed vacation from their bodies, and were rightfully shocked to discover squatters when they finally returned home.

They were totally onboard and in control of their own habitat the entire time, they just didn't feel like talking to anyone about it.

Regarding legal systems...

21st Century American Law should apply.

21st Century British Law should apply.

21st Century generic international corporate law should apply.

18th Century Admiralty law should apply.

32nd Century UNS law should apply.

32nd Century Admirality law should apply.

32nd Century Neo-Oafan Freehold Law should Apply.

32nd Century Pleniponitient Dominion law should apply.

10-billion-year-old Ancient Oafan Law should apply.

We should assume that all of those legal systems are basically the same.

We should assume that some of those legal systems have certain important differences, such as vastly increased shareholder liability.

We should assume that whichever legal systems actually matter here are apparently completely incomprehensible,

We should assume that no touch of legality has crossed what's going on here, and it's a might-makes-right situation.

In summary...

The ?four? debates about all this, on facebook, quickly dissolved into nonsensical assumptions and unprovable hypotheticals being constantly yelled at each other.

No agreement was ever FORMALLY reached, but the general consensus seemed to be:
1. This legal outcome was really weird, and felt narratively forced.
2. a large minority of the debaters were complete madmen with the reading comprehension skills of drunken chipmunks.
3. None of the adults in the room could agree on much of anything else, except for these three points, inclusive.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:04 pm 
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Ennesby's been hacked, and he says whatever the latest voices in his head tell him to say -- we know he's running on outdated hardware with no security to speak of, and we know that hardware -has- been hacked in the past, several times.

That doesn't explain why -Tagon- is just knuckling under to bankrupting his entire mercenary operation, flying in the face of his previous "Payments are very, very non-refundable" policy, for work in which his entire company was put to threat of mortal harm. Tagon just gave a huge middle finger to his entire company by taking all their money and giving it to some random strangers.

This is not the first time the idiot ball has been used as a critical plot device to drive a book forward.

Quote:
1. This legal outcome was really weird, and felt narratively forced.
2. a large minority of the debaters were complete madmen with the reading comprehension skills of drunken chipmunks.
3. None of the adults in the room could agree on much of anything else, except for these three points, inclusive.


These points are all very valid.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:29 pm 
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Tagon's knuckling under for the same reason Petey is. Apparently the Oafans have a huge fleet of long guns. And if you want to stay on the good side of the people who can kill you instantly you do what they say.

That said I have two major complaints. First the Toughs appear to be on the hook for the ships that were traded to the UNS. This is not legitimate in my opinion. Putting aside all questions of salvage and ownership in that case they were acting as agents of the Neo Oafan freehold and its the Neo Oafan freehold that should be held responsible not them.

If the Toughs absolutely must be held responsible it's for the ships they sold to the Intelligence department. And that was maybe one or two squadrons not thousands of ships.

Second and my more major complaint is that the Oafans rolled out of their millions of years long imprisonment and despite the ships being in disrepair were apparently able to instantly whip up a huge fleet that threatens Petey both economically and militarily.

I mean what. Not even the Allstar was that powerful. And it's even older than the Oafans. I call bull.

This could have been an interesting story. It could have been an interesting story and still take all the Toughs riches away, but for the moment it just feels like a Diabolus Ex Machina. Maybe it will all be explained later, but for now I'm going to withdraw my Patreon subscription over this.

I don't know if my forum complaints will ever reach Howard, but my missing payment will. Even if it is just a tiny amount of money proportionally.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:54 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
Second and my more major complaint is that the Oafans rolled out of their millions of years long imprisonment and despite the ships being in disrepair were apparently able to instantly whip up a huge fleet that threatens Petey both economically and militarily.

The ships aren't in disrepair. They were stasis-gelled, and so are capable of being brought back into service without the need for any significant repair work. This is also how Chinook was able to build her fleet of long gun corvettes: by taking preserved ships, flushing the stasis gel, and turning them on.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:31 pm 
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Nemoricus wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
Second and my more major complaint is that the Oafans rolled out of their millions of years long imprisonment and despite the ships being in disrepair were apparently able to instantly whip up a huge fleet that threatens Petey both economically and militarily.

The ships aren't in disrepair. They were stasis-gelled, and so are capable of being brought back into service without the need for any significant repair work. This is also how Chinook was able to build her fleet of long gun corvettes: by taking preserved ships, flushing the stasis gel, and turning them on.


By disrepair I meant unpowered. Yes, they can be brought back online, but instantly?

If so why did the Neo Oafans even need those battlplate annie plants for their construction.

If the ships in stasis have usable annie plants, then surely they could have been used instead. And if they don't have usable annie plants, then how are the Oafans bringing them online.

---

The whole point of annie plant is that it stores neutronium as fuel. So whether its on or off it will have the same gravity signature. Which is what the Pa'anuri home in on. So everything I've read so far would indicate that all the ships in the stasis docks might be in good condition, but they are essentially out of fuel.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:43 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
Nemoricus wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
Second and my more major complaint is that the Oafans rolled out of their millions of years long imprisonment and despite the ships being in disrepair were apparently able to instantly whip up a huge fleet that threatens Petey both economically and militarily.

The ships aren't in disrepair. They were stasis-gelled, and so are capable of being brought back into service without the need for any significant repair work. This is also how Chinook was able to build her fleet of long gun corvettes: by taking preserved ships, flushing the stasis gel, and turning them on.


By disrepair I meant unpowered. Yes, they can be brought back online, but instantly?

If so why did the Neo Oafans even need those battlplate annie plants for their construction.

If the ships in stasis have usable annie plants, then surely they could have been used instead. And if they don't have usable annie plants, then how are the Oafans bringing them online.

---

The whole point of annie plant is that it stores neutronium as fuel. So whether its on or off it will have the same gravity signature. Which is what the Pa'anuri home in on. So everything I've read so far would indicate that all the ships in the stasis docks might be in good condition, but they are essentially out of fuel.


It's been heavily implied a few times that a Modern, UNS, Battleplate-class set of Annie Plants and Fabbers are actually bigger and better at what they do than the equivalent pieces of Oafan Hardware.

presumably, there are all sorts of tasks where a tricorn-class battleplate is simply more familiar, more convenient, and more capable than ancient Oafan hardware would be. For starters, the AI compatibility issues are a lot easier to manage, and the design libraries are more up-to-date, and all the little macros and assembly functions for the fabber are probably more familiar.

Remember all the frustrations Ventura and Elf went through, trying to figure out how to build a replacement Oafan boat using UNS fabbers? how much worse would it have been if they were using an ancient Oafan fabber, that was based on a completely different and foreign design architecture that neither Ventura nor Elf had ever been trained in?


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:54 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
---

The whole point of annie plant is that it stores neutronium as fuel. So whether its on or off it will have the same gravity signature. Which is what the Pa'anuri home in on. So everything I've read so far would indicate that all the ships in the stasis docks might be in good condition, but they are essentially out of fuel.


Restoring a "dry" annie plant to providing net power is called "Warbucking". it's apparently a common-enough task, if slightly annoying when you're forced to do it in the middle of a crisis.

Once operational, Annie plants generate their OWN Neutronium, providing net useful power, as long as they have a sufficient bulk supply of "normal" matter which they can swallow and compress into Neutronium.

Warbucking EVERY ship in the vault, simultanously, was probably an interesting technical exercise, but as long as they had a few depot ships available to start with and a large supply of external mass, it shouldn't have been too hard. It would have followed an exponential progression once they got started: 1 ship helps warbuck another, then 2 warbucks 2, 4 warbucks 4, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:56 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
By disrepair I meant unpowered. Yes, they can be brought back online, but instantly?

What gave the impression that the Oafa brought them online instantly? As I'm reading Petey and Putzho's remarks, the Oafa have /access/ to quite a few long guns in their vault, not that they've brought them all online right now.

And even if only a small fraction of them have been brought online, that's still enough to represent a worrying amount of firepower.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:19 pm 
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Nemoricus wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
By disrepair I meant unpowered. Yes, they can be brought back online, but instantly?

What gave the impression that the Oafa brought them online instantly? As I'm reading Petey and Putzho's remarks, the Oafa have /access/ to quite a few long guns in their vault, not that they've brought them all online right now.

And even if only a small fraction of them have been brought online, that's still enough to represent a worrying amount of firepower.


Perhaps I am reading too much into Putzho's line of "Considering how many long guns they have at their disposal." I feel like it implies they have significantly morel long guns that Chinook did.

It's also the fact that Petey regards himself as having a trade imbalance. I mean I can see how it would hurt the Toughs if the Oafans took their stuff back, but Petey. Petey who has a galactic core generator, massive fleets, and accountants to keep track of his accountants.

The way the main characters are all just rolling over for the Oafans just feels contrived.

Now maybe there are good explanations for that. It's not impossible. I can think of a few myself. But nothing like that has been stated in the comic. It's just been one long string, "I'm afraid we're all poor now."

I thought when Ennesby talked with Tagon we'd finally get an explanation of how this was all working out. But no, we just skip that part and go straight to Tagon delivering the bad news to his own subordinates.

It doesn't feel like a well developed plot. It feels like the author saying, "Well I want the Toughs to be poor now and do some job, but I don't want to come up with a plausible legal explanation. So I'll just skip that and have all the characters act like there is one."


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:24 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
Nemoricus wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
By disrepair I meant unpowered. Yes, they can be brought back online, but instantly?

What gave the impression that the Oafa brought them online instantly? As I'm reading Petey and Putzho's remarks, the Oafa have /access/ to quite a few long guns in their vault, not that they've brought them all online right now.

And even if only a small fraction of them have been brought online, that's still enough to represent a worrying amount of firepower.


Perhaps I am reading too much into Putzho's line of "Considering how many long guns they have at their disposal." I feel like it implies they have significantly morel long guns that Chinook did.

It's also the fact that Petey regards himself as having a trade imbalance. I mean I can see how it would hurt the Toughs if the Oafans took their stuff back, but Petey. Petey who has a galactic core generator, massive fleets, and accountants to keep track of his accountants.

The way the main characters are all just rolling over for the Oafans just feels contrived.

Now maybe there are good explanations for that. It's not impossible. I can think of a few myself. But nothing like that has been stated in the comic. It's just been one long string, "I'm afraid we're all poor now."


Petey has a trade imbalance, not a power imbalance.

A core generator is not the same thing as a dark-matter ptu-foundry. Petey only began construction on a Dark Matter PTU foundry a few months ago. The Oafans possess what's probably the equivalent of thousands of years worth of output from their original foundries. Petey probably owes them a few year's worth of production from that.

He'll pay them back eventually, but at the moment, he's in their debt.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:27 pm 
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Krennson wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:

Perhaps I am reading too much into Putzho's line of "Considering how many long guns they have at their disposal." I feel like it implies they have significantly morel long guns that Chinook did.

It's also the fact that Petey regards himself as having a trade imbalance. I mean I can see how it would hurt the Toughs if the Oafans took their stuff back, but Petey. Petey who has a galactic core generator, massive fleets, and accountants to keep track of his accountants.

The way the main characters are all just rolling over for the Oafans just feels contrived.

Now maybe there are good explanations for that. It's not impossible. I can think of a few myself. But nothing like that has been stated in the comic. It's just been one long string, "I'm afraid we're all poor now."


Petey has a trade imbalance, not a power imbalance.

A core generator is not the same thing as a dark-matter ptu-foundry. Petey only began construction on a Dark Matter PTU foundry a few months ago. The Oafans possess what's probably the equivalent of thousands of years worth of output from their original foundries. Petey probably owes them a few year's worth of production from that.

He'll pay them back eventually, but at the moment, he's in their debt.


Petey has also been mining a world forge for PTUs. And whatever you might think about the ships the Oafans had that at least was most certainly salvage.

And besides when did Petey even take any ships from those vaults. It's all been transactions between the Neo-Oafans, the Toughs, and the UNS. The only thing Petey did was act as a guarantor for the freehold.

What does Petey have to pay them back for.

I mean literally that's my point. We've had no explanation of what Petey is apparently on the hook for. It just happened.


Last edited by Arcanestomper on Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:28 pm 
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Nemoricus wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
By disrepair I meant unpowered. Yes, they can be brought back online, but instantly?

What gave the impression that the Oafa brought them online instantly? As I'm reading Petey and Putzho's remarks, the Oafa have /access/ to quite a few long guns in their vault, not that they've brought them all online right now.

And even if only a small fraction of them have been brought online, that's still enough to represent a worrying amount of firepower.


The "fact" that the vault is apparently empty, and a very short period of time has passed for that to happen.
That may not be instant, but a few hours, at most, is still very fast, considering the size of the vault, and the number of ships that apparently Were in it.

The easiest way was probably to terraport the ships, possibly with the aid of other ships, into the upper atmosphere of a jovian or superjovian they knew the coordinates to, and warbuck there. Then, come back with a supply of neutronium to help jumpstart the next wave. This beats turning the air and oceans into neutronium for a presumably astoundingly large fleet of ships.


Also, considering whether or not the ancient oafans were still in control of their station.
I'd have to say no, since the bridge necessary to access that server cluster was presumably the one Putzo rebuilt.

Also, why do you think Tagon has picked up the idiot ball? He's rolling with a developing situation, rather than complaining. Now is not the time for complaining. Complaining won't save them their fortunes. Pitching in MIGHT help, won't hurt, and the galaxy needs saving, again.


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