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The Nightstar Zoo • View topic - 2018-9-13 Robbery

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 Post subject: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:19 am 
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[rant]
I have to say I disagree. This is definitely not as clear-cut as Tagon and Ennesby are presenting it.

The Toughs took stuff as compensation for helping to salvage Eina-Afa, the same salvage operation that eventually freed the cyber-Oafans. Salvage is not robbery.

It could be argued that since Eina-Afa was inhabited, it was not salvage. However, as someone mentioned on these forums, helping someone recover something they would of otherwise lost is the definition of salvage. Compensation is owed, even if it was not negotiated beforehand, and no matter how much it feels like robbery to the owners. There is the issue that the Ancient Oafans were forced to neglect their station-home, but their imprisonment was caused by another Ancient Oafan, one that charged with caring for the station. The case that the Toughs rescued Eina-Afa from neglect is very real.

And saying that "since the Ancient Oafans are still there, everything belongs to them" has the unpleasant consequence of ignoring the very legitimate claims the Hiveminds have. Eina-Afa is their home.

There is also the added complexity of what claim the Neoafans have. This parable about houses implies that the Neoafans have no business living on Eina-Afa. But that seems like a very dissatisfying way of handling the Neoafan's position.
[/rant]


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:47 am 
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The problem is the Ancient Oafans may not see it the way you do. And the way Tagon and Ennesby are talking, they may not see it that way either. Their conversation implies they consider the Ancient Oafans to have first claim on Eina-Afa and everything present there before the Toughs arrived.

Are the Ancient Oafans going to need to work something out with the Hive Mind and the Neoafans? Most certainly, and the Toughs can claim they deserve compensation for helping make Eina-Afa livable again as well. The Ancient Oafans don't necessarily have to respect that claim though. Either way this shakes out, IMO this is the beginning of the end of the Toughs' association with the Oafans. I have a feeling they're not coming out of this as filthy rich as they are now...

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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:11 pm 
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My understanding is that their current richness is because they have claim on the resources of Eina-Afa that's still in storage/mothballed. Those claims evaporate as those resources wake up and get their minds back. Everything they have withdrawn they may be able to negotiate, but it's not going to be pretty. I don't know if they get to keep whatever ships they still have, or if they will be expected to pay for the ships they chopped into itty bitty pieces and sold off as PTUs.

I think the Oafans may be merciful and forgive the debt, but they will problably ask for all their stuff back.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:26 pm 
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I"m not even sure it implies that there's an end to the association.

But if the Tough's bank was mainly backed by the fact they had a share of "millions of cold ships" that they could up for PTU, those assets are currently being drained and converted into active warships.

Overall I'd say it's still a win in their favour, cause being on good turns with the new instant power is a good thing.
Even Petey's admitted that the scale is tilted heavily in the Offan's favour at the moment.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:29 pm 
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Tagon may also be talking about robbery in a metaphorical sense. IE, the terms of repayment that the ancient Oafans are asking for are so severe that they are tantamount to robbery.

And, without knowing the precise details of the arrangement Petey, Putzho, the Toughs, and the Oafan have reached, it's hard to say whether or not it's fair. Also, don't forget the extraordinary value of the PTU rich Oafan hulls. Even if the Oafa agreed that the Toughs are owed /some/ payment for their contributions to their recovery, they may have argued that what was taken exceeds the value of that service. Even if that disparity is relatively small, in absolute terms, PTU rich hulls are extremely expensive.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:12 am 
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Normally I give Howard leeway and see where he's taking a plotline...

But not this time. Fuck this, it's pure nonsense.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:02 am 
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I cannot imagine a universe in which the Oafan assets cannot have been considered abandoned when the Toughs salvaged them.

Sucks to be the Oafans, but they DID have themselves murdered to save themselves from a fate worse than. There are repercussions for that sort of thing. There's also the matter of the rescue fee.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:19 am 
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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:40 am 
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In legal terms, there is a significant factor in all of this; the ships were not simply salvaged, they were given by the AI Tkkuts Afa, who was the caretaker of the Oafans at the time. It was given to them in return for being provided a ship to move around in and reintroduction to the galactic stage. Tkkuts afa has ALSO provided a service of millions and millions of millions of eras of maintaining the cyberspace refuge through several extinction attempts. Even if it wasn't done to willing people. I don't think there were terms and conditions for that caretaking, either. But the point is, there are plenty of arguments that the Toughs can use that the ships were taken in good faith, and should not be returned.

There are two remaining parts, then. First, ownership is 99% of the law. Who's got control over Eina-Afa at the moment? Is it Iafa's copy? Is it the Oafans (how? They're not AI)

At the moment, the Oafans can do what they like, because they are in control of Eina-Afa and therefore have a fucktonne of fungibles and long-guns. UNS and human law is out the window because they probably have a different legal system. Everything's up in the air, it means, and it pretty much falls on Tagon to grab whatever he can before it hits and makes a mess of everything.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:05 am 
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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:36 am 
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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:37 am 
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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:42 am 
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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:14 am 
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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:54 am 
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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:06 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:01 am 
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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:26 am 
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I think the most likely interpretation as of now is that the Oafans consider the ships that were sold off as scrap or lost in battle to have a value exceeding the salvage fees. And their opinion is backed by their fleet, so the only other opinion that matters is if Petey disagrees and is willing to withdraw the fleet from Andromeda to enforce his position.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:11 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:04 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:29 pm 
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Tagon's knuckling under for the same reason Petey is. Apparently the Oafans have a huge fleet of long guns. And if you want to stay on the good side of the people who can kill you instantly you do what they say.

That said I have two major complaints. First the Toughs appear to be on the hook for the ships that were traded to the UNS. This is not legitimate in my opinion. Putting aside all questions of salvage and ownership in that case they were acting as agents of the Neo Oafan freehold and its the Neo Oafan freehold that should be held responsible not them.

If the Toughs absolutely must be held responsible it's for the ships they sold to the Intelligence department. And that was maybe one or two squadrons not thousands of ships.

Second and my more major complaint is that the Oafans rolled out of their millions of years long imprisonment and despite the ships being in disrepair were apparently able to instantly whip up a huge fleet that threatens Petey both economically and militarily.

I mean what. Not even the Allstar was that powerful. And it's even older than the Oafans. I call bull.

This could have been an interesting story. It could have been an interesting story and still take all the Toughs riches away, but for the moment it just feels like a Diabolus Ex Machina. Maybe it will all be explained later, but for now I'm going to withdraw my Patreon subscription over this.

I don't know if my forum complaints will ever reach Howard, but my missing payment will. Even if it is just a tiny amount of money proportionally.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:54 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:31 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:43 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:54 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:56 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:19 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:24 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:27 pm 
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Last edited by Arcanestomper on Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:28 pm 
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