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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:12 pm 
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So how clear can we make this picture.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:28 pm 
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100% if you add an alpha layer.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:59 am 
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Well, bubble 3 is "261 light-minutes form edge to center". That's about about 4.7^10 kilometers. By comparison, the orbit of neptune is about 4.5^10 kilometers (250 light-minutes).

On the other hand, bubble 0 is "two light-seconds across", which is just a hair under 600,000 KM, but that sounds like a diameter, while bubble 3 is a radius. By comparison, the orbit of Mercury has a radius of about 58,000,000 KM.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:00 pm 
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So, one ship, in one mercenary company, has a fabber that can TAD an entire solar system and do a massive killbox over bigger than mercury's orbit ...

Folks, this is EVE Online level of solar system control / capital ship denial.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:36 pm 
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They definitely made it into the big time.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:31 pm 
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This is also the mercenary company one of whose captains was able to finance three year's production of an entire colony out of her personal assets. Admittedly that pretty much took all of her assets. But she was a relatively new hire, I bet she wasn't the most invested in the company by a long shot.

And even given all that they're still nowhere near the capacity of the big players like the UNS, just one of whose battleplate's probably easily dwarfs this entire set up. They're still just one mercenary company. Although almost assuredly one of the largest private military forces at this point.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:44 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
And even given all that they're still nowhere near the capacity of the big players like the UNS, just one of whose battleplate's probably easily dwarfs this entire set up.

While you might be pretty close to accurate on other counts, this one is actually false.

Considering they purchased a battleplate from the UNS... okay, sure, the guys bankrolling them made the purchase, but the Toughs rolled out to Petey with a fleet of PTU hulled ships as 'loot/pay' from the mission that set this big ball rolling.

Do not underestimate the depth and width of the Tough's bank account. Massey did say he knew all the numbers when they hired Sanctum Adroit.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:22 pm 
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evileeyore wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
And even given all that they're still nowhere near the capacity of the big players like the UNS, just one of whose battleplate's probably easily dwarfs this entire set up.

While you might be pretty close to accurate on other counts, this one is actually false.

Considering they purchased a battleplate from the UNS... okay, sure, the guys bankrolling them made the purchase, but the Toughs rolled out to Petey with a fleet of PTU hulled ships as 'loot/pay' from the mission that set this big ball rolling.

Do not underestimate the depth and width of the Tough's bank account. Massey did say he knew all the numbers when they hired Sanctum Adroit.


I meant in fabrication capacity. If the Tough's had the fabber capacity of a battleplate they would not have needed to make that purchase in the first place.

And even now I bet most of the capacity of the battleplate they purchased is going into infrastructure rather than making military units for them. While on the other hand the UNS has a bunch more battleplates, and the capacity to build more in a relatively short frame of time.

Also did the Toughs hire Sanctum Adroit using their own funds or were they acting as agents of the Oafa again? I know it was phrased as a subcontractor job, but how much were the Oafa paying them for law enforcement services originally. I believe the final figure was a fairly reasonable fee not some astronomically high number.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:59 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
evileeyore wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
And even given all that they're still nowhere near the capacity of the big players like the UNS, just one of whose battleplate's probably easily dwarfs this entire set up.

While you might be pretty close to accurate on other counts, this one is actually false.

Considering they purchased a battleplate from the UNS... okay, sure, the guys bankrolling them made the purchase, but the Toughs rolled out to Petey with a fleet of PTU hulled ships as 'loot/pay' from the mission that set this big ball rolling.

Do not underestimate the depth and width of the Tough's bank account. Massey did say he knew all the numbers when they hired Sanctum Adroit.


I meant in fabrication capacity. If the Tough's had the fabber capacity of a battleplate they would not have needed to make that purchase in the first place.

And even now I bet most of the capacity of the battleplate they purchased is going into infrastructure rather than making military units for them. While on the other hand the UNS has a bunch more battleplates, and the capacity to build more in a relatively short frame of time.

Also did the Toughs hire Sanctum Adroit using their own funds or were they acting as agents of the Oafa again? I know it was phrased as a subcontractor job, but how much were the Oafa paying them for law enforcement services originally. I believe the final figure was a fairly reasonable fee not some astronomically high number.

Yeah, don't confuse money/resources with military hardware. There is a long history of those with one being victimized by those with the other.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:03 am 
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If I recall correctly, they needed the battleplate's annies to warbuck Eina-Afa's systems. Once they are all spun up I expect Chinook would've been sitting on a pretty sweet throne.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:28 am 
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grahamf wrote:
If I recall correctly, they needed the battleplate's annies to warbuck Eina-Afa's systems. Once they are all spun up I expect Chinook would've been sitting on a pretty sweet throne.

Exactly. They didn't need the battleplate's fabbers, they needed it's annies. The Toughs have been ahead on the "strategic use of fabbing" for most of the comic. The only fabbers they've ever needed were macro-scale fabberies, large enough to build/repair starships.

They make these huge TAD fields with TAD enabled terapedoes.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:38 pm 
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evileeyore wrote:
The Toughs have been ahead on the "strategic use of fabbing" for most of the comic.

Makes sense, as they have not one, but three "mad scientists" in company--Kevyn, Elf, and Ventura.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:19 pm 
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Black Sheep wrote:
evileeyore wrote:
The Toughs have been ahead on the "strategic use of fabbing" for most of the comic.

Makes sense, as they have not one, but three "mad scientists" in company--Kevyn, Elf, and Ventura.

None of them are what I would ever describe as a "scientist".

Kev is a mad multi-field engineer.
Elf is a competent combat engineer.
Ventura is a very good (but evil) robot engineer.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:56 pm 
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evileeyore wrote:
Black Sheep wrote:
evileeyore wrote:
The Toughs have been ahead on the "strategic use of fabbing" for most of the comic.

Makes sense, as they have not one, but three "mad scientists" in company--Kevyn, Elf, and Ventura.

None of them are what I would ever describe as a "scientist".

Kev is a mad multi-field engineer.
Elf is a competent combat engineer.
Ventura is a very good (but evil) robot engineer.

I don't think I'd describe Ventura as evil . . . tightly focused to the point of obsessive behavior, and not good at thinking through the consequences, but not evil.

Evil implies malice, and I don't see that with her behavior.

--FreeFlier


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:58 pm 
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Technically every self - claimed "mad scientist" always seems to do more engineering than science. The side effect of being a mad scientist is that there is usually no one else you trust that is willing to do the engineering for you, so you have to do it yourself. Kevyn is no exception.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:20 pm 
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FreeFlier wrote:
evileeyore wrote:
Black Sheep wrote:
Makes sense, as they have not one, but three "mad scientists" in company--Kevyn, Elf, and Ventura.

None of them are what I would ever describe as a "scientist".

Kev is a mad multi-field engineer.
Elf is a competent combat engineer.
Ventura is a very good (but evil) robot engineer.

I don't think I'd describe Ventura as evil . . . tightly focused to the point of obsessive behavior, and not good at thinking through the consequences, but not evil.

Evil implies malice, and I don't see that with her behavior.

--FreeFlier


Utter irreverence for self determination and will of sentient beings is generally considered evil. In Haven Hive she talked a lot about her hacks preserving intelligence and problem solving of machines, but she completely and deliberately ignored the fact that what she did was tantamount to brain washing, overwriting will of AIs. She also threatened that on Ennesby, Tailor and did it to Tag.

In world where machines are sentient, and brains can be downloaded, that's capital E kind of evil.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:29 pm 
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M[i]ech wrote:
Utter irreverence for self determination and will of sentient beings is generally considered evil. In Haven Hive she talked a lot about her hacks preserving intelligence and problem solving of machines, but she completely and deliberately ignored the fact that what she did was tantamount to brain washing, overwriting will of AIs. She also threatened that on Ennesby, Tailor and did it to Tag.

In world where machines are sentient, and brains can be downloaded, that's capital E kind of evil.

M[i]ech gets where I stand on this subject.

The only difference between her and Colonel DeHaans, is Para has big eyes and better PR.



And DeHaans has been ingested. So... okay, there are two primary differences.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:43 pm 
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evileeyore wrote:
M[i]ech wrote:
Utter irreverence for self determination and will of sentient beings is generally considered evil. In Haven Hive she talked a lot about her hacks preserving intelligence and problem solving of machines, but she completely and deliberately ignored the fact that what she did was tantamount to brain washing, overwriting will of AIs. She also threatened that on Ennesby, Tailor and did it to Tag.

In world where machines are sentient, and brains can be downloaded, that's capital E kind of evil.

M[i]ech gets where I stand on this subject.

The only difference between her and Colonel DeHaans, is Para has big eyes and better PR.



And DeHaans has been ingested. So... okay, there are two primary differences.


*blink* *blink*
That similarity never occurred to me.
After you pointed out, it's striking, Laz'R'Us burrs, if not completely removes, the line between their... fields of expertise.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:41 pm 
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M[i]ech wrote:
*blink* *blink*
That similarity never occurred to me.
After you pointed out, it's striking, Laz'R'Us burrs, if not completely removes, the line between their... fields of expertise.

With the complete kit he was given by Petey, there is no line between their expertise.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:35 am 
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evileeyore wrote:
M[i]ech wrote:
*blink* *blink*
That similarity never occurred to me.
After you pointed out, it's striking, Laz'R'Us burrs, if not completely removes, the line between their... fields of expertise.

With the complete kit he was given by Petey, there is no line between their expertise.

Though there is a difference in how they go about what they do. Para places a high value on the comfort of her subjects, DeHaans did not.

That being said, malice is most definitely not what defines evil.
FreeFlier wrote:
I don't think I'd describe Ventura as evil . . . tightly focused to the point of obsessive behavior, and not good at thinking through the consequences, but not evil.
--FreeFlier

Actually, obsessive behavior and ignores consequences is a pretty good definition of evil.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:27 am 
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Motortiki wrote:
evileeyore wrote:
M[i]ech wrote:
*blink* *blink*
That similarity never occurred to me.
After you pointed out, it's striking, Laz'R'Us burrs, if not completely removes, the line between their... fields of expertise.

With the complete kit he was given by Petey, there is no line between their expertise.

Though there is a difference in how they go about what they do. Para places a high value on the comfort of her subjects, DeHaans did not.

That being said, malice is most definitely not what defines evil.
FreeFlier wrote:
I don't think I'd describe Ventura as evil . . . tightly focused to the point of obsessive behavior, and not good at thinking through the consequences, but not evil.
--FreeFlier

Actually, obsessive behavior and ignores consequences is a pretty good definition of evil.


No, that's closer to sociopathy than evil.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:32 pm 
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I'd just go with "young". She's at that stage where she Knows Everything, and is smarter than her parents, elders. She doesn't consider the complications because she's deluded in thinking she has it all under control. She's no more evil, in that regard, than a high school or college student who makes unwise decisions while behind the wheel of a car.

Her brainhacking is a problem, but I can't think of a time when she's done so purely for her own selfish interests. She did the Cindercone and the TARbots to pull her friends feet out of the fire, and she did Tailor while still an agent of Int-Aff-Int, and this afforded her more leeway in her intelligence gathering.

Dehaans loved his job. He was a practicing sadist. A monster leashed to the needs of the state, but a monster first, and a monster through and through.

Kendrakirai wrote:
Motortiki wrote:
evileeyore wrote:
With the complete kit he was given by Petey, there is no line between their expertise.

Though there is a difference in how they go about what they do. Para places a high value on the comfort of her subjects, DeHaans did not.

That being said, malice is most definitely not what defines evil.
FreeFlier wrote:
I don't think I'd describe Ventura as evil . . . tightly focused to the point of obsessive behavior, and not good at thinking through the consequences, but not evil.
--FreeFlier

Actually, obsessive behavior and ignores consequences is a pretty good definition of evil.


No, that's closer to sociopathy than evil.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:58 pm 
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Kendrakirai wrote:
No, that's closer to sociopathy than evil.

Evil is as evil does.

Sean wrote:
She's no more evil, in that regard, than a high school or college student who makes unwise decisions while behind the wheel of a car.

No. She is no more evil than a young twenties aged rapist who gets away with it because it's not illegal*.


* And when it is very much illegal (TARbots, Cindercone) money pays off all the right people.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:15 pm 
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Motortiki wrote:
. . .
FreeFlier wrote:
I don't think I'd describe Ventura as evil . . . tightly focused to the point of obsessive behavior, and not good at thinking through the consequences, but not evil.
Actually, obsessive behavior and ignores consequences is a pretty good definition of evil.

I didn't say ignores consequences, I said she doesn't think them through well enough.

And that's a lack of experience.

Is a teenager who drives too fast and has a serious accident evil?

Also, remember that her former employers trained her to do what she was told, and not think through the consequences . . .

--FreeFlier


Last edited by FreeFlier on Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:17 pm 
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evileeyore wrote:
M[i]ech wrote:
*blink* *blink*
That similarity never occurred to me.
After you pointed out, it's striking, Laz'R'Us burrs, if not completely removes, the line between their... fields of expertise.

With the complete kit he was given by Petey, there is no line between their expertise.


From ethical point of view, there never was any difference, from technical point of view, there may or may not be.
I would expect Laz'R'Us consciousness and memory storage to differ from those used in AIs, if anything, because of difference in hardware that actually runs those processes. I could very well be wrong, but that's what I meant.

Still, that detail isn't important, what's important, is that due to her better PR, I never made a connection that Para=DeHaans, despite having all the elements to do so.

Sean wrote:
I'd just go with "young". She's at that stage where she Knows Everything, and is smarter than her parents, elders. She doesn't consider the complications because she's deluded in thinking she has it all under control. She's no more evil, in that regard, than a high school or college student who makes unwise decisions while behind the wheel of a car.


Call me overly strict, but I would consider level of negligence that causes fatal accident, to be evil. Catholics would call that sin of omission, Kant would call that failure to treat human as an end, Mill would note that death of victim and incarceration of perpetrator causes decrease in happiness. Either way, they all would agree that it's wrong.

However, I don't consider your simile as genuinely valid.
She doesn't just make mistakes. She's deliberately brainwashing sentient beings, just because she can.

(Here, I should probably explain, that due to "Ship of Theseus" problem, I consider information to be the important part of sentience (even nowadays, we can't regrow limbs or organs just yet, but transplantations and medical implants are reason enough to start shifting definition of "human" away from just physical body), and as such, for me brainwashing is a form of murder. Fantasy-like necromancy even: original person is dead and body is inhabited by mockery of original consciousness, usually programmed to do the master's bidding without question.)

Really, Para doesn't regard AIs as people, instead treating them as objects to be used, abused and discarded. All her talk is little more than smokescreen to throw off observers, or perhaps she likes her slaves just creative and free willed enough to not require constant micromanagement. Either way, she kills, brainwashes or to use TVTropes term: "mindrapes" as she wants, just because she can. Not everything that is permitted by law is good and not everything that is prohibited is evil, here UNS (and likely not just UNS) law allows something that is deeply wrong.

If you don't see my point, consider the following thought experiment: tomorrow, Para is visiting your house, and without asking you for permission rewriting your mind so that you become her willing slave, she will also change gender of your mind and perhaps attach some more limbs to your body. You are not allowed to run, hide or defend yourself.
On how many different levels is that wrong?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:49 pm 
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In other words, Para is just like an Emergent's "Director of Human Resources".

If you don't know: Imagine if successful college students were boosted with a drug that "focused" them, making them better and better at their skill -- Einstein level intelligence, but highly specialized.

Now, make this common. Say 25% of college grads. (That's a guess -- we never got the exact figure).

How common? So you lose one Einstein -- there's another. Just plug them in, and replace the old one.

Intelligence, and skill at a discipline, become so common that they are discardable. And the people who are responsible for running things make use of these "human resource"'s.

To Ventura, an AI is just another resource.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:24 pm 
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keybounce wrote:
In other words, Para is just like an Emergent's "Director of Human Resources".

If you don't know: Imagine if successful college students were boosted with a drug that "focused" them, making them better and better at their skill -- Einstein level intelligence, but highly specialized.

Now, make this common. Say 25% of college grads. (That's a guess -- we never got the exact figure).

How common? So you lose one Einstein -- there's another. Just plug them in, and replace the old one.

Intelligence, and skill at a discipline, become so common that they are discardable. And the people who are responsible for running things make use of these "human resource"'s.

To Ventura, an AI is just another resource.


This has EVIL written all over it in more ethical systems than I care to list.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:53 pm 
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M[i]ech wrote:
This has EVIL written all over it in more ethical systems than I care to list.


Hint: the Emergents are not the protagonists of A Deepness in the Sky.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:46 am 
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Cindercone and the tarbots you can argue that changing how they think is worse the killing them but it was a combat situation. If fighting the local authorities is evil then the Toughs as a whole are evil.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 11:24 am 
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danacarson wrote:
Cindercone and the tarbots you can argue that changing how they think is worse the killing them but it was a combat situation.

This is false. The bots can be put back the way they were, so long as they still exist (or backups exist).

Quote:
If fighting the local authorities is evil then the Toughs as a whole are evil.

No one is making that argument.


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