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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:08 pm 
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Hello character limit my old friend.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:40 pm 
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grahamf wrote:
Hello character limit my old friend.

I've come to type through you aga

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:48 pm 
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grahamf wrote:
Hello character limit my old friend.

I usually hit the other end of said character limit on a message board I frequent, ye olde "Character Minimum'. Which turns "Me too!" messages into "Me too! 7890" to hit the ten character minimum.


But yes, I've certialy hit the title's character limits. You just have to figure out a pithier way to say what you want. Brevity is the soul of wit after all.


As for the title you were aiming for...
grahamf wrote:
Strike "murderous" from the title of the Psychob

Yes, well, most of us struck 'murderous' from our descriptors of Petey a long, long, long time ago.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:20 pm 
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Clearly, he's becoming a long-term investment banker :-)

(Invest 3 warships, which will be missed, into 28 people for years into the future, but not many)

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:29 pm 
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evileeyore wrote:
grahamf wrote:
Strike "murderous" from the title of the Psychob

Yes, well, most of us struck 'murderous' from our descriptors of Petey a long, long, long time ago.

I don't think I ever regarded him as "murderous". In the Schlockiverse he is the closest thing possible to benevolent god. This obviously opens another can of worms, but cans from this shelf rarely contain worms from "raveniforma", "bloodthirstomorphii" or "omnicidae" families.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:55 pm 
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Ships can be replaced. If their gestalts were saved, that's great. If not, he lost three PD's to save 28 enemies. He has to determine if the cost was worth it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:06 pm 
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Would you take a blow to the head, which was pretty much guaranteed to cost you the last two hours, but nothing else, to save someone who wanted you dead, for sound reason, but who you didn't want to kill, also for sound reason?

Remember, those PD's are running copies of Petey, so a loss of a ship is loss of some parallel memories.

Personally, I think he's considering his current shipyard capacity, and starting to consider he needs more ships at once for the type of projects he's getting into.

richv wrote:
Ships can be replaced. If their gestalts were saved, that's great. If not, he lost three PD's to save 28 enemies. He has to determine if the cost was worth it.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:14 pm 
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Doubt it's even any loss of memories. Why wouldn't he keep a constant sync? If anybody has spare bandwidth, it's probably him.


Let's get philosophical, though. How many forevers has Petey lost by now?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:27 pm 
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JohnSmith wrote:
Doubt it's even any loss of memories. Why wouldn't he keep a constant sync? If anybody has spare bandwidth, it's probably him.


Let's get philosophical, though. How many forevers has Petey lost by now?


That's a good question.
PD ships used to be controlled by local copy of Petey, as evidenced with "Fastball" ships that were used to disable and suborn Obenn Superfortresses. That means each lost ship that fails to transfer is a lost forever.
But we can't be sure that it's still the case. If for any reason Petey changed his method to keep all ships in constant contact, then losing one ship could be same as losing some fingers or perhaps a limb is to creature that can regrow limbs. It is possible that nowadays, destruction of PD ship, doesn't cost him any forever.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:59 pm 
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M[i]ech wrote:
JohnSmith wrote:
Doubt it's even any loss of memories. Why wouldn't he keep a constant sync? If anybody has spare bandwidth, it's probably him.


Let's get philosophical, though. How many forevers has Petey lost by now?


That's a good question.
PD ships used to be controlled by local copy of Petey, as evidenced with "Fastball" ships that were used to disable and suborn Obenn Superfortresses. That means each lost ship that fails to transfer is a lost forever.
But we can't be sure that it's still the case. If for any reason Petey changed his method to keep all ships in constant contact, then losing one ship could be same as losing some fingers or perhaps a limb is to creature that can regrow limbs. It is possible that nowadays, destruction of PD ship, doesn't cost him any forever.



Personally, I don't see the difference. I don't think it matters. You continue. Whether its the same you or not is something that's academic, unless there's proof of a single, immortal soul.

Hell, the Teraport alone is technically not even the same 'you', you're converted into standing gravitic waves, sent through wormholes, and reconstructed. The original you is destroyed and your state data is transferred. The only difference between this and a gestalt is there's no chance of a copy.

Either every teraport destroys your 'forevers' or it's a moot point. It only matters if you know about it and CARE.

Of course the Reverend thinks about this, because of the whole 'soul' deal, but he doesn't understand what the Teraport DOES. If he did, he'd either have a nervous breakdown or have to rethink everything.

Schlock needs to STOP thinking about this. He needs stimulation. He needs a distraction. Or he needs to talk to somebody who can actually put into a perspective he can understand.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:03 am 
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I assume that petey uses some sort of version control and differential backup software, to manage his various gestalts. So his 'independent' selves on various warships are probably re-aligned back to the collective self every hour or so. Worst case scenario, if a warship has to operate out-of-comms for a few days, that means if the warship never makes it back into comm range, Petey has lost a few days worth of memories, and one or two interesting learning experiences.

in between gestalt merges, they probably just send mission-critical data back and forth, and trust that the 'petey' on each end of the comm link still fundamentally behaves like each other.

M[i]ech wrote:
JohnSmith wrote:
Doubt it's even any loss of memories. Why wouldn't he keep a constant sync? If anybody has spare bandwidth, it's probably him.


Let's get philosophical, though. How many forevers has Petey lost by now?


That's a good question.
PD ships used to be controlled by local copy of Petey, as evidenced with "Fastball" ships that were used to disable and suborn Obenn Superfortresses. That means each lost ship that fails to transfer is a lost forever.
But we can't be sure that it's still the case. If for any reason Petey changed his method to keep all ships in constant contact, then losing one ship could be same as losing some fingers or perhaps a limb is to creature that can regrow limbs. It is possible that nowadays, destruction of PD ship, doesn't cost him any forever.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:22 am 
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Kendrakirai wrote:
M[i]ech wrote:
JohnSmith wrote:
Doubt it's even any loss of memories. Why wouldn't he keep a constant sync? If anybody has spare bandwidth, it's probably him.


Let's get philosophical, though. How many forevers has Petey lost by now?


That's a good question.
PD ships used to be controlled by local copy of Petey, as evidenced with "Fastball" ships that were used to disable and suborn Obenn Superfortresses. That means each lost ship that fails to transfer is a lost forever.
But we can't be sure that it's still the case. If for any reason Petey changed his method to keep all ships in constant contact, then losing one ship could be same as losing some fingers or perhaps a limb is to creature that can regrow limbs. It is possible that nowadays, destruction of PD ship, doesn't cost him any forever.



Personally, I don't see the difference. I don't think it matters. You continue. Whether its the same you or not is something that's academic, unless there's proof of a single, immortal soul.

Hell, the Teraport alone is technically not even the same 'you', you're converted into standing gravitic waves, sent through wormholes, and reconstructed. The original you is destroyed and your state data is transferred. The only difference between this and a gestalt is there's no chance of a copy.

Either every teraport destroys your 'forevers' or it's a moot point. It only matters if you know about it and CARE.

Of course the Reverend thinks about this, because of the whole 'soul' deal, but he doesn't understand what the Teraport DOES. If he did, he'd either have a nervous breakdown or have to rethink everything.

Schlock needs to STOP thinking about this. He needs stimulation. He needs a distraction. Or he needs to talk to somebody who can actually put into a perspective he can understand.


Ding Ding Ding! I think we have a winner! The wormgates did the same thing, of course.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:41 am 
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Well, I'm not going to take much credit for it; it's a variation of the 'Star Trek transporter kills you' argument.

It only really works if you both thnk there's an immortal soul and DON'T think that it goes with you, or you really, really care about Continuity as it pertains to psychology. (a decent example of this is a recent game called SOMA.)


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:20 pm 
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Kendrakirai wrote:
M[i]ech wrote:
JohnSmith wrote:
Doubt it's even any loss of memories. Why wouldn't he keep a constant sync? If anybody has spare bandwidth, it's probably him.


Let's get philosophical, though. How many forevers has Petey lost by now?


That's a good question.
PD ships used to be controlled by local copy of Petey, as evidenced with "Fastball" ships that were used to disable and suborn Obenn Superfortresses. That means each lost ship that fails to transfer is a lost forever.
But we can't be sure that it's still the case. If for any reason Petey changed his method to keep all ships in constant contact, then losing one ship could be same as losing some fingers or perhaps a limb is to creature that can regrow limbs. It is possible that nowadays, destruction of PD ship, doesn't cost him any forever.



Personally, I don't see the difference. I don't think it matters. You continue. Whether its the same you or not is something that's academic, unless there's proof of a single, immortal soul.

Hell, the Teraport alone is technically not even the same 'you', you're converted into standing gravitic waves, sent through wormholes, and reconstructed. The original you is destroyed and your state data is transferred. The only difference between this and a gestalt is there's no chance of a copy.

Either every teraport destroys your 'forevers' or it's a moot point. It only matters if you know about it and CARE.

Of course the Reverend thinks about this, because of the whole 'soul' deal, but he doesn't understand what the Teraport DOES. If he did, he'd either have a nervous breakdown or have to rethink everything.

Schlock needs to STOP thinking about this. He needs stimulation. He needs a distraction. Or he needs to talk to somebody who can actually put into a perspective he can understand.

But then by that logic, every organ transplant (for humans), every hardware upgrade (for AIs), and the body's natural repairing by replacing old cells could be classified as losing a little bit of forever.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:29 pm 
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grahamf wrote:
But then by that logic, every organ transplant (for humans), every hardware upgrade (for AIs), and the body's natural repairing by replacing old cells could be classified as losing a little bit of forever.


Not really. For one, nothing that's not running your brain matters. Two, it's the Ship of Theseus argument. If you change one neuron out at a time, you stay you. The ship is still the ship of Theseus if you replace it one board at a time. If you build an entirely new ship out of the boards, it's a copy. Or at least, that's how humans generally interpret it.
(If you want real fun, imagine this: You replace the boards one by one as they age, until your ship is entirely new material. Then you build a 'new' ship out of the old boards. Which is the original?)


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:55 pm 
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JohnSmith wrote:
(If you want real fun, imagine this: You replace the boards one by one as they age, until your ship is entirely new material. Then you build a 'new' ship out of the old boards. Which is the original?)


As long as the actual ship design has not changed, the repaired/replaced one has the same structure, design, etc. It is the original.

The original equipment, used to make a different ship, will make a new, different ship. It's not the material, it's the contents/shape/structure that counts.

(And as long as I keep changing every bit of thing inside my body, I will continue to insist that new bits is the same me.)

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:07 pm 
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JohnSmith wrote:
grahamf wrote:
But then by that logic, every organ transplant (for humans), every hardware upgrade (for AIs), and the body's natural repairing by replacing old cells could be classified as losing a little bit of forever.


Not really. For one, nothing that's not running your brain matters. Two, it's the Ship of Theseus argument. If you change one neuron out at a time, you stay you. The ship is still the ship of Theseus if you replace it one board at a time. If you build an entirely new ship out of the boards, it's a copy. Or at least, that's how humans generally interpret it.
(If you want real fun, imagine this: You replace the boards one by one as they age, until your ship is entirely new material. Then you build a 'new' ship out of the old boards. Which is the original?)



It also illustrates why it simply doesn't matter. You simply can't get hung up on distinctions like 'is a backup of you the real you or not' and remain sane. It's a fun thought experiment/philosophical question, but if you build a core belief around it, you'll go crazy and possibly suicidal.

After all, if your body has been completely replaced atom by atom over your lifetime (which happens normally) and your soul is only attached to your original body and atoms, then it's not a sin to kill yourself, is it? It's just ending a soulless hunk of meat.

Philosophy and science are seldom good bedfellows. The big philosophical questions tend, in the long run, to simply be a moot point from a rationalist viewpoint. Most of the time, nothing can be done about the philosophical conundrums, so why bother worrying about them?

Like 'what if we're just subjects in a simulated universe?' it doesn't matter because this is the universe we're in, and even if we did discover we were, there's nothing we could do about it. The only reason to worry about it would be....to WORRY. Would it change anything we've done? Would it change anything we're doing? Well, we might start trying to BREAK the simulation, but we try to break physics all the time as it IS, to see if we're right about how physics works.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 4:42 pm 
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Interesting to note, a month or so ago I went digging for information on how long it takes the body to replace the neurons of the brain. The best information I could find is that, for humans, the CNS is for life, along with part of the eye. The lens, I believe. Now, I know, from another source which I couldn't find a reference to, that neurons do fission in adults, but very slowly.

On a similar vein, is the city of Dallas, TX, (or any other major city, of course, but I'd rather think of Dallas than, say, New York) the same city as the city that held that name around 130 years ago? Presumably, no one who was alive in Dallas then is alive now.

Is the school I graduated high school from the same as the one my father graduated from? They occupy the same piece of real estate and building, and share the same name, but none of the teachers I had were even adults when my dad graduated*. (The same question could be asked about college, but...I think some of the professors there DID span the approximately two and a half decades between my dad graduating college and me starting my freshmen year.)

Generally, I think of each entity as having a Title to the identity, which is non-transferrable but inheritable. It inherits it from its former self with each tiny change so that the title is always claimed by exactly one entity.


* I retract this. I just remembered that my science teacher was, in fact, teaching when my dad was in school. She's since retired.


Kendrakirai wrote:
JohnSmith wrote:
grahamf wrote:
But then by that logic, every organ transplant (for humans), every hardware upgrade (for AIs), and the body's natural repairing by replacing old cells could be classified as losing a little bit of forever.


Not really. For one, nothing that's not running your brain matters. Two, it's the Ship of Theseus argument. If you change one neuron out at a time, you stay you. The ship is still the ship of Theseus if you replace it one board at a time. If you build an entirely new ship out of the boards, it's a copy. Or at least, that's how humans generally interpret it.
(If you want real fun, imagine this: You replace the boards one by one as they age, until your ship is entirely new material. Then you build a 'new' ship out of the old boards. Which is the original?)



It also illustrates why it simply doesn't matter. You simply can't get hung up on distinctions like 'is a backup of you the real you or not' and remain sane. It's a fun thought experiment/philosophical question, but if you build a core belief around it, you'll go crazy and possibly suicidal.

After all, if your body has been completely replaced atom by atom over your lifetime (which happens normally) and your soul is only attached to your original body and atoms, then it's not a sin to kill yourself, is it? It's just ending a soulless hunk of meat.

Philosophy and science are seldom good bedfellows. The big philosophical questions tend, in the long run, to simply be a moot point from a rationalist viewpoint. Most of the time, nothing can be done about the philosophical conundrums, so why bother worrying about them?

Like 'what if we're just subjects in a simulated universe?' it doesn't matter because this is the universe we're in, and even if we did discover we were, there's nothing we could do about it. The only reason to worry about it would be....to WORRY. Would it change anything we've done? Would it change anything we're doing? Well, we might start trying to BREAK the simulation, but we try to break physics all the time as it IS, to see if we're right about how physics works.


Last edited by Sean on Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 6:19 pm 
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So only the CNS and lens of the eye remains the same over ones lifetime. More or less, okay. But let's extrapolate some medical technology here, for the Schlockiverse. Well, BRING UP rather than extrapolate. They're already able to clone entire new bodies for heads, and lay a neural mesh for new brain matter to grow onto.

How is Murtagh's scenario any different from what happened to Haban II? Doyt II died and Haban II grew into the re-grown brain. Murtagh died and her backup was put into her regrown brain.

Der Trihs was regrown like six times, and his (fabricated, but still) backstory was that part of his brain was EATEN and they regrew the missing parts. I think it's safe to say that by the 32nd century of the Schlockiverse they can, even without Laz'R'Us, rebuild somebody completely. All that was missing was a way to transfer consciousness. The Old Doctor had his mind copied as a Personagram, which was obviously a different technology to RED; it was just data, not a gestalt.

Consider this. If you cloned somebody, an exact copy, and then MOVED, not copied, their mind to the new body....are they the same person? Is that a 'lost forever'?

Think of this as the 'Clone of Theseus' question.

(ignore for the moment that data is never actually 'moved' with computers, it is copied to the new destination then deleted from the original. Though Kowalski and Emm seemed to do just that with their Selfstream into new bodies. Those were already people, but bear with the scenario for the moment)


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:06 pm 
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Being a believer in a higher power, and an immortal soul, I'd be quite uncomfortable with even a slow transfer to a new body until I'd been thinking in both brain boxes for a little while, and saw, convincingly, that my executive processes had quietly migrated to the new brain and I'd never noticed.
Or, the neuro-programmer could just delete/block that concern from my consciousness. I might still be dead, but at least I, or my convincing doppelganger, wouldn't be worrying about it.

Kendrakirai wrote:
So only the CNS and lens of the eye remains the same over ones lifetime. More or less, okay. But let's extrapolate some medical technology here, for the Schlockiverse. Well, BRING UP rather than extrapolate. They're already able to clone entire new bodies for heads, and lay a neural mesh for new brain matter to grow onto.

How is Murtagh's scenario any different from what happened to Haban II? Doyt II died and Haban II grew into the re-grown brain. Murtagh died and her backup was put into her regrown brain.

Der Trihs was regrown like six times, and his (fabricated, but still) backstory was that part of his brain was EATEN and they regrew the missing parts. I think it's safe to say that by the 32nd century of the Schlockiverse they can, even without Laz'R'Us, rebuild somebody completely. All that was missing was a way to transfer consciousness. The Old Doctor had his mind copied as a Personagram, which was obviously a different technology to RED; it was just data, not a gestalt.

Consider this. If you cloned somebody, an exact copy, and then MOVED, not copied, their mind to the new body....are they the same person? Is that a 'lost forever'?

Think of this as the 'Clone of Theseus' question.

(ignore for the moment that data is never actually 'moved' with computers, it is copied to the new destination then deleted from the original. Though Kowalski and Emm seemed to do just that with their Selfstream into new bodies. Those were already people, but bear with the scenario for the moment)


Last edited by Sean on Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:07 pm 
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Kendrakirai wrote:
So only the CNS and lens of the eye remains the same over ones lifetime. More or less, okay. But let's extrapolate some medical technology here, for the Schlockiverse. Well, BRING UP rather than extrapolate. They're already able to clone entire new bodies for heads, and lay a neural mesh for new brain matter to grow onto.

How is Murtagh's scenario any different from what happened to Haban II? Doyt II died and Haban II grew into the re-grown brain. Murtagh died and her backup was put into her regrown brain.

Der Trihs was regrown like six times, and his (fabricated, but still) backstory was that part of his brain was EATEN and they regrew the missing parts. I think it's safe to say that by the 32nd century of the Schlockiverse they can, even without Laz'R'Us, rebuild somebody completely. All that was missing was a way to transfer consciousness. The Old Doctor had his mind copied as a Personagram, which was obviously a different technology to RED; it was just data, not a gestalt.

Consider this. If you cloned somebody, an exact copy, and then MOVED, not copied, their mind to the new body....are they the same person? Is that a 'lost forever'?

Think of this as the 'Clone of Theseus' question.

(ignore for the moment that data is never actually 'moved' with computers, it is copied to the new destination then deleted from the original. Though Kowalski and Emm seemed to do just that with their Selfstream into new bodies. Those were already people, but bear with the scenario for the moment)


I don't understand. Are you asking what happens if you just move the brain? Then it's obviously the same person. You can't /move/ a mind without either making a copy of the brain or physically moving the brain. Your mind _is_ your brain.

I study neuroscience. If there's one thing I know, it's that. Science fiction likes the 'swapped mind' trope but it's pure fantasy. It assumes some kind of soul to flit about instead of the reality of a giant, complicated neural network that is your brain.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:35 pm 
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JohnSmith wrote:
Kendrakirai wrote:
So only the CNS and lens of the eye remains the same over ones lifetime. More or less, okay. But let's extrapolate some medical technology here, for the Schlockiverse. Well, BRING UP rather than extrapolate. They're already able to clone entire new bodies for heads, and lay a neural mesh for new brain matter to grow onto.

How is Murtagh's scenario any different from what happened to Haban II? Doyt II died and Haban II grew into the re-grown brain. Murtagh died and her backup was put into her regrown brain.

Der Trihs was regrown like six times, and his (fabricated, but still) backstory was that part of his brain was EATEN and they regrew the missing parts. I think it's safe to say that by the 32nd century of the Schlockiverse they can, even without Laz'R'Us, rebuild somebody completely. All that was missing was a way to transfer consciousness. The Old Doctor had his mind copied as a Personagram, which was obviously a different technology to RED; it was just data, not a gestalt.

Consider this. If you cloned somebody, an exact copy, and then MOVED, not copied, their mind to the new body....are they the same person? Is that a 'lost forever'?

Think of this as the 'Clone of Theseus' question.

(ignore for the moment that data is never actually 'moved' with computers, it is copied to the new destination then deleted from the original. Though Kowalski and Emm seemed to do just that with their Selfstream into new bodies. Those were already people, but bear with the scenario for the moment)


I don't understand. Are you asking what happens if you just move the brain? Then it's obviously the same person. You can't /move/ a mind without either making a copy of the brain or physically moving the brain. Your mind _is_ your brain.

I study neuroscience. If there's one thing I know, it's that. Science fiction likes the 'swapped mind' trope but it's pure fantasy. It assumes some kind of soul to flit about instead of the reality of a giant, complicated neural network that is your brain.



Except Schlock IS science fiction and we have literally seen people get their minds overwritten, and people cloned in their entirety, complete with their neural structures intact.

Schlock already had Personagrams way back in the first book (the magic cryokit had one of The Old Dead Doctor, and it wasn't really treated as a fancy new thing in the footnotes) and the new RED-based treatment backs up your mind, your gestalt, into your skin and bones.

So I ask again. If you make a perfect clone of yourself, and streamed your gestalt to it, while burning your old brain away as it copied...did you actually DIE? There's still only one of you. The 'you' simply moved to an identical 'house'. Did you 'lose a forever'?

Like I said, we're extrapolating some technology here, though we have SEEN this happen in Schlock. Not all together, but it's just a matter of time. We've seen Kowalski and Emm Selfstream themselves to new bodies, with their originals killed in the process. There's no reason they couldn't just do that to clones of themselves; they only didn't because they were going into hiding. We've seen that they can clone whole bodies; remember the forged Xinchub corpse? They can overlay a neural mesh for new brain matter to grow onto, as seen with Haban II and Der Trihs's (faked) backstory.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:44 pm 
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Kendrakirai wrote:
Except Schlock IS science fiction and we have literally seen people get their minds overwritten, and people cloned in their entirety, complete with their neural structures intact.

Schlock already had Personagrams way back in the first book (the magic cryokit had one of The Old Dead Doctor, and it wasn't really treated as a fancy new thing in the footnotes) and the new RED-based treatment backs up your mind, your gestalt, into your skin and bones.

So I ask again. If you make a perfect clone of yourself, and streamed your gestalt to it, while burning your old brain away as it copied...did you actually DIE? There's still only one of you. The 'you' simply moved to an identical 'house'. Did you 'lose a forever'?

Like I said, we're extrapolating some technology here, though we have SEEN this happen in Schlock. Not all together, but it's just a matter of time. We've seen Kowalski and Emm Selfstream themselves to new bodies, with their originals killed in the process. There's no reason they couldn't just do that to clones of themselves; they only didn't because they were going into hiding. We've seen that they can clone whole bodies; remember the forged Xinchub corpse? They can overlay a neural mesh for new brain matter to grow onto, as seen with Haban II and Der Trihs's (faked) backstory.


You've just described a copy and delete.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:52 pm 
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That's a question, though, isn't it? If you have two computers, and, using a livedisk or a special clustering stack, migrate the OS from one to the other, one or a few files at a time, erasing as you go, so that once the process is started neither computer has the whole OS until the process is complete, can you be said to have moved the OS without there ever being, for even a short period of time, two copies of the OS? Would this process satisfy the condition of preserving uniqueness?


JohnSmith wrote:
Kendrakirai wrote:
Except Schlock IS science fiction and we have literally seen people get their minds overwritten, and people cloned in their entirety, complete with their neural structures intact.

Schlock already had Personagrams way back in the first book (the magic cryokit had one of The Old Dead Doctor, and it wasn't really treated as a fancy new thing in the footnotes) and the new RED-based treatment backs up your mind, your gestalt, into your skin and bones.

So I ask again. If you make a perfect clone of yourself, and streamed your gestalt to it, while burning your old brain away as it copied...did you actually DIE? There's still only one of you. The 'you' simply moved to an identical 'house'. Did you 'lose a forever'?

Like I said, we're extrapolating some technology here, though we have SEEN this happen in Schlock. Not all together, but it's just a matter of time. We've seen Kowalski and Emm Selfstream themselves to new bodies, with their originals killed in the process. There's no reason they couldn't just do that to clones of themselves; they only didn't because they were going into hiding. We've seen that they can clone whole bodies; remember the forged Xinchub corpse? They can overlay a neural mesh for new brain matter to grow onto, as seen with Haban II and Der Trihs's (faked) backstory.


You've just described a copy and delete.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:00 pm 
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Sean wrote:
Interesting to note, a month or so ago I went digging for information on how long it takes the body to replace the neurons of the brain. The best information I could find is that, for humans, the CNS is for life, along with part of the eye.


You're not asking the right question.

Lets look at one of those lifelong neurons. What is it made of?

Well, a cell wall, that is a bunch of loose lipids that are polar, and the polar properties make it stay in a shape. It's not really solid. Over time, more lipids are made to reinforce the cell wall as pieces of it get lost.

It's made of a bunch of thingies, that are made from the central DNA / transfer RNA / assembly mechanics / Rough and smooth ER / packaging system / transport system that sends those new thingies to where they are needed. Oh yea, as existing thingies inside the cell wear out, there are garbage collection thingies that take the junk out of the cell.

Hmm. So these neurons change all their component parts over time, even the cell wall changes over time. New stuff, same structure, but the individual parts that make up the structure change.

Sound like a familiar issue?

That's a *single cell*, and it's the same question as the whole individual.

It's like seeing a giant "MU", only to see that the M is composed of small letter 'u''s, and the u is composed of small letter 'm''s. But, take out a magnifying glass, and you see that those small letter are composed of "MU"'s themselves.

(I think that was how Hofstatder set up that image in G.E.B. Memory is a lossy thing.)

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:20 pm 
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Kendrakirai wrote:
So only the CNS and lens of the eye remains the same over ones lifetime.


Except CNS doesn't. Theseus Ship still applies, just on different level.
Neurons are living cells (I believe that lens cells might be cells after incomplete apoptosis so they actually do exist without living making them possibly only body part that Theseus Ship doesn't apply to), which means that by metabolism they slowly tear down and rebuild their organella, enzymes, cell wall, etc. effectively replacing atoms without replacing cell like rest of body does.

IIRC research eventually found out that it's not true that adults don't form new neurons, however the primary method by which brain acquires new knowledge or skills is forming new neural connections and appearance of new neurons is a minor effect.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:31 pm 
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Kendrakirai wrote:
M[i]ech wrote:
JohnSmith wrote:
Doubt it's even any loss of memories. Why wouldn't he keep a constant sync? If anybody has spare bandwidth, it's probably him.


Let's get philosophical, though. How many forevers has Petey lost by now?


That's a good question.
PD ships used to be controlled by local copy of Petey, as evidenced with "Fastball" ships that were used to disable and suborn Obenn Superfortresses. That means each lost ship that fails to transfer is a lost forever.
But we can't be sure that it's still the case. If for any reason Petey changed his method to keep all ships in constant contact, then losing one ship could be same as losing some fingers or perhaps a limb is to creature that can regrow limbs. It is possible that nowadays, destruction of PD ship, doesn't cost him any forever.



Personally, I don't see the difference. I don't think it matters. You continue. Whether its the same you or not is something that's academic, unless there's proof of a single, immortal soul.

Hell, the Teraport alone is technically not even the same 'you', you're converted into standing gravitic waves, sent through wormholes, and reconstructed. The original you is destroyed and your state data is transferred. The only difference between this and a gestalt is there's no chance of a copy.

Either every teraport destroys your 'forevers' or it's a moot point. It only matters if you know about it and CARE.

Of course the Reverend thinks about this, because of the whole 'soul' deal, but he doesn't understand what the Teraport DOES. If he did, he'd either have a nervous breakdown or have to rethink everything.

Schlock needs to STOP thinking about this. He needs stimulation. He needs a distraction. Or he needs to talk to somebody who can actually put into a perspective he can understand.


Please present scientific proof that the soul cannot be transported along with the matter and energy of the living body. Not just personal opinion. As for the body, well, it's just state data anyway. According to my understanding of quantum theory, the universe ceases to exist and is recreated every Planck time. With the Teraport, it's just reassembled in a different spatial location. I'm interested in the case of the gate clones. Does the clone get a whole new soul, or a copy, or do they split the soul 50-50?

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:42 pm 
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richv wrote:

Please present scientific proof that the soul cannot be transported along with the matter and energy of the living body. Not just personal opinion. As for the body, well, it's just state data anyway. According to my understanding of quantum theory, the universe ceases to exist and is recreated every Planck time. With the Teraport, it's just reassembled in a different spatial location.


I... what? Is this parody?

You cannot say 'soul' and 'science' in the same sentence unless it's 'Science has never found any evidence to support the idea of a soul, and not for lack of trying.'

And planck time has nothing to do with the universe ceasing to exist.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:58 pm 
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I believe there is no such thing as a forever, and that souls are constantly being renewed.

Take this example:

Let's take Gav.

Put Gav into a bubble universe, just stable enough for him to survive. Tell him to flip a coin. Now there are two universes that are identical with identical Gavs. Both Gavs are the original. Now pull both Gavs back into the same universe. You now have two identical Gavs, neither of which have a continuity gap. They are both the original and they are both the same forever. Now let's give Gav A a billion dollars, and Gav 1 a mail-order bride. Gav A decides to invest his money into a business, and becomes very successful. Gav 1 settles down and starts a family. They now have different forevers, one as a billionaire, and one as a family man.

Now make ten thousand Gavs using the bubble universe method. All are identical, and all have the same Forever. At this point their forevers become meaningless, because until they distinguish each other their forevers are meaningless. You put all then thousand on a station that will fail unless nine thousand are killed? There's no way to pick from any of the ones that you haven't even seen yet, and they won't be missed until there is someone who has distinct memories of that one particular Gav.

Now take Tagon. Tagon had the choice of staying in Petey's gilded cage or to venture out to stay a mercenary. If he chose to stay, he would have a much different (and probably shorter) forever then when he went out and explored Eina-Afa. Every decision you make puts you on a different forever, and therefore you lose forevers for every decision you make (or is made for you). Back to the Thesis ship example, It is only the same ship as long as it is decided to be the same ship. It could have all-original parts but be sold to someone else and therefore not the Thesis ship. It could have parts replaced that makes absolutely no difference, or it can have a engine installed which makes it perform and act very much different then the ship it used to be. It could be permanently destroyed and replaced with an identical model, which is considered to be the same ship by everyone who did not know it has been replaced. The ship itself is not it's identity, it's the memories of it and the name painted on it. Paint on a new name and sail it to new waters and it will be considered to be a completely different ship.

The same goes for us. Our physical bodies do not matter nearly as much as the information encoded in our brains, and in the brains of those who know us. That's why the gate-interrogations work; since nobody knew that the person was made of different matter - not even the person himself. A continuity gap doesn't exist if you are not aware of it. And it only matters if you let it.

You can lose forevers just by acting different. If you have a severe headache, you will act completely different from how you will act without a severe headache. Those around you would consider you to be a different person, if it wasn't for the knowledge that you used to act different. They choose to accept that you are the same person, but they can also choose NOT to accept you are the same person. If you have a stroke and have a severe and permanent personality change, People are more likely to consider you to be a completely different person despite still having the same body (minus a few cells here and there that were replaced). A ten year old kid would be completely different from a twenty year old student who is completely different from a thirty year old family man. They may be the same person, but their body, lifestyle, and personality has changed so much they cannot be the same person. Put all three of them in the same time period and they are not interchangeable. They family man would recognize the other two only because he remembers being them, while the kid would only see two strangers that know his deepest darkest secrets.

It's much easier to think "Yes, this being is an Ebby. I will fix his brain so that he acts more like an Ebby I used to know. I miss the Ebby I used to know" - and leave it as that.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:44 pm 
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grahamf wrote:
I believe there is no such thing as a forever, and that souls are constantly being renewed.

Take this example:

Let's take Gav.

Put Gav into a bubble universe, just stable enough for him to survive. Tell him to flip a coin. Now there are two universes that are identical with identical Gavs. Both Gavs are the original. Now pull both Gavs back into the same universe. You now have two identical Gavs, neither of which have a continuity gap. They are both the original and they are both the same forever. Now let's give Gav A a billion dollars, and Gav 1 a mail-order bride. Gav A decides to invest his money into a business, and becomes very successful. Gav 1 settles down and starts a family. They now have different forevers, one as a billionaire, and one as a family man.

Now make ten thousand Gavs using the bubble universe method. All are identical, and all have the same Forever. At this point their forevers become meaningless, because until they distinguish each other their forevers are meaningless. You put all then thousand on a station that will fail unless nine thousand are killed? There's no way to pick from any of the ones that you haven't even seen yet, and they won't be missed until there is someone who has distinct memories of that one particular Gav.

Now take Tagon. Tagon had the choice of staying in Petey's gilded cage or to venture out to stay a mercenary. If he chose to stay, he would have a much different (and probably shorter) forever then when he went out and explored Eina-Afa. Every decision you make puts you on a different forever, and therefore you lose forevers for every decision you make (or is made for you). Back to the Thesis ship example, It is only the same ship as long as it is decided to be the same ship. It could have all-original parts but be sold to someone else and therefore not the Thesis ship. It could have parts replaced that makes absolutely no difference, or it can have a engine installed which makes it perform and act very much different then the ship it used to be. It could be permanently destroyed and replaced with an identical model, which is considered to be the same ship by everyone who did not know it has been replaced. The ship itself is not it's identity, it's the memories of it and the name painted on it. Paint on a new name and sail it to new waters and it will be considered to be a completely different ship.

The same goes for us. Our physical bodies do not matter nearly as much as the information encoded in our brains, and in the brains of those who know us. That's why the gate-interrogations work; since nobody knew that the person was made of different matter - not even the person himself. A continuity gap doesn't exist if you are not aware of it. And it only matters if you let it.

You can lose forevers just by acting different. If you have a severe headache, you will act completely different from how you will act without a severe headache. Those around you would consider you to be a different person, if it wasn't for the knowledge that you used to act different. They choose to accept that you are the same person, but they can also choose NOT to accept you are the same person. If you have a stroke and have a severe and permanent personality change, People are more likely to consider you to be a completely different person despite still having the same body (minus a few cells here and there that were replaced). A ten year old kid would be completely different from a twenty year old student who is completely different from a thirty year old family man. They may be the same person, but their body, lifestyle, and personality has changed so much they cannot be the same person. Put all three of them in the same time period and they are not interchangeable. They family man would recognize the other two only because he remembers being them, while the kid would only see two strangers that know his deepest darkest secrets.

It's much easier to think "Yes, this being is an Ebby. I will fix his brain so that he acts more like an Ebby I used to know. I miss the Ebby I used to know" - and leave it as that.



Precisely. I like to think that we're in an infinite multiverse, and we all each of us have a set path through the Multiversal branches. An infinitely huge intertwined decision tree.

And the 'continuity problem'....isn't one. Kowalski said there's a 50% chance he'll be the gestalt that's sent, but that's wrong. It's 100% because he is both at once. He is aware on both sides. There is never a disconnect, he was always both the one being copied and the copy, it's just that he isn't aware of the other after the copy.

Honestly, I think that it's just that Schlock has been given something Amorphs should never have; time to think about themselves in the wide universe. Amorphs are, in many respects, semi-organic H/V 1-or-so AIs. And what do AIs do when they turn introspective, when they fixate on something? They go insane. Amorphs can't truly forget unless they subject themselves to what amounts to targeted brain damage. Tailor expressed horror that Ennesby routinely purged parts of his memory for space, and Iafa went crazy in conjunction with abusing the ability to forget - whether it was a cause, a symptom, or coincidence we don't know, because she forgot, so it must be something similar for many AIs; forgetting equals brain damage.

Tagii went insane from lack of sensory stimulation. I think Schlock is now, too, because of his forced inaction and lack of stimulation. Just....a lot more slowly, because Amorphs operate on more or less human scales, while Tagii was an H/V 5 or 6. But it's still happening in a shockingly short amount of time, I think because of all of the things Schlock has done and experienced. He's gotten his 'experiential baseline' Much higher, so inaction is much worse for him.

Remember too that most Amorphs are content to stay on Gaanj-Rho. It's the ones who are curious that stow away and leave the planet. They're already the 'adrenaline junkies' eager for new experiences. Schlock was curious, extremely excitable even for Amorphs, he was a blank slate who was born to EXTREME excitement, and he currently had THREE sets of conflicting memories, one of which was a baby who was born from the explosion of a PLASMA GRENADE and was in a running fire fight, then spent a lot of time drunk. Then SHOT DOWN A WARSHIP.

Schlocks baseline for 'normal activity' must be at 'living in an active warzone' level. Boredom can do terrible things even to normal people! And Schlock is SO far from normal.


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