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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:27 pm 
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JohnSmith wrote:
Ken, you're going ballistic because somebody is doing something you find rude and reprehensible. But that has absolutely bugger all to do with the philosophical considerations, or in fact whether or not the General would plausibly feel that way. And really, that last one is the only thing that matters at all in this situation.


Seconded.

My problems are that the actions of the Toughs don't make sense for a group with the experiences they already have. It's the apparent incongruity that bothers me, not that Karl is not handling things well. That's the difference between wanting Karl to stop being an idiot, and wanting him to put down the idiot ball. I've posted my in universe objections already.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 9:34 pm 
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There is plenty of room for this, however. The idea that soup out of a personal sized recycler is fundamentally different from soup made using water out of a ships water recycling sytem, is fundamentally different than water taken out of a river, and processed into drinking water by the city utility...that has another city upstream that uses that same water as a outlet for their treated sewage.

If you've grown to accept a thing without really thinking about it or knowing how it really works, it's easier to close your eyes to this new, unsettling, truth, and keep treating it like you always did.
To keep treating water from the municipal tap as obviously potable, but being squicked out by the idea of a block the size of a small shed that turns your untreated black water back into potable water.

Yes, the toughs know, intellectually, that there is no PRACTICAL difference, but they have years of experience telling them otherwise. Until Admiral Breya led the war against the gatekeepers and Kevyn's team figured out JUST HOW the gates worked, they were a black box. Anyone who has grown up with their use being normal isn't going to suddenly start treating anyone who has used one as if they were a different person.

Karl has had several decades where Laz-5 was dead. D.E.A.D. While he will intellectually know that there is no PRACTICAL difference between this new clone, and the last time he saw HIS Kaff, certainly much of that 40 minutes that was "lost" was spent outside of his presence, his life experiences are getting in the way of truly accepting that as true.
He would be more comfortable if there was a bit more tubing between his catheter and his soup straw.

This is human nature.

DrCron wrote:
JohnSmith wrote:
Ken, you're going ballistic because somebody is doing something you find rude and reprehensible. But that has absolutely bugger all to do with the philosophical considerations, or in fact whether or not the General would plausibly feel that way. And really, that last one is the only thing that matters at all in this situation.


Seconded.

My problems are that the actions of the Toughs don't make sense for a group with the experiences they already have. It's the apparent incongruity that bothers me, not that Karl is not handling things well. That's the difference between wanting Karl to stop being an idiot, and wanting him to put down the idiot ball. I've posted my in universe objections already.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:54 am 
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evileeyore wrote:
DrCron wrote:
It's not "He" and "You", its "You" and "You"...

Where as, unlike you, I remember that Karl and Kaff have a slightly adversarial (and humorous) relationship and take that as gentle chiding in the vein of "I love you son, but sacrifice yourself like that again and I'll kill you".



RickBoatright wrote:
From the moment he awoke in the simulation in the tank he wasn't THAT Kaff, he was someone who never had to make that decision, and has to deal with the decisions of others.

You don't think "New Kaff" would make that exact same decision given the same circumstances?

I do. It's the same man.

But he hasn't. Who we are is determined by what choices we make. I agree that Kaff wouldn't hesitate to sacrifice himself to save the lives of those under his command (it's the second time, after all). But he has not actually faced the choice of sacrificing himself, and I assert that facing that choice fundamentally changes a person. So the person that sacrificed himself is not the same as the person that existed 40 mins before.

I think the analogy of the fork that someone brought up is an excellent description of what happened to Tagon.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:25 am 
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Motortiki wrote:
evileeyore wrote:
DrCron wrote:
It's not "He" and "You", its "You" and "You"...

Where as, unlike you, I remember that Karl and Kaff have a slightly adversarial (and humorous) relationship and take that as gentle chiding in the vein of "I love you son, but sacrifice yourself like that again and I'll kill you".



RickBoatright wrote:
From the moment he awoke in the simulation in the tank he wasn't THAT Kaff, he was someone who never had to make that decision, and has to deal with the decisions of others.

You don't think "New Kaff" would make that exact same decision given the same circumstances?

I do. It's the same man.

But he hasn't. Who we are is determined by what choices we make. I agree that Kaff wouldn't hesitate to sacrifice himself to save the lives of those under his command (it's the second time, after all). But he has not actually faced the choice of sacrificing himself, and I assert that facing that choice fundamentally changes a person. So the person that sacrificed himself is not the same as the person that existed 40 mins before.

I think the analogy of the fork that someone brought up is an excellent description of what happened to Tagon.


So somebody who makes that choice, goes through with it, but somehow survives, but has no memory of making that choice isn't the same person?

What about people who decide to commit suicide during a dissociative state and have no memory of doing so when they wake up in the hospital?

Go ahead and tell me that you think that anybody who suffers a brain injury and forgets parts of their life isn't the same person. Go tell somebody who has somebody like that in their family. Tell them about this 'program fork' analogy. I'll wait until you come out of intensive care. Maybe you'll even have forgotten you did it due to just such an injury, and you can convince yourself you aren't the same person you were.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:29 am 
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Motortiki wrote:
But he hasn't.

How many times does Kaff have to die sacrificing himself for others and then have that sacrifice undone and his memories reset to a prior "fork" for you to accept that that is a basic personality trait of his?

More than twice I presume.

Quote:
I assert that facing that choice fundamentally changes a person.

I disagree. It might change a person. It might also simply be who the person always has been.



I would also like to point out, you keep asserting the choice changed him. So what? Who Kaff was before the choice is the same person he is now.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:39 am 
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Sean wrote:
If you've grown to accept a thing without really thinking about it or knowing how it really works, it's easier to close your eyes to this new, unsettling, truth, and keep treating it like you always did.
To keep treating water from the municipal tap as obviously potable, but being squicked out by the idea of a block the size of a small shed that turns your untreated black water back into potable water.


My take on that analogy is that it makes no sense for someone who has happily survived on, known about, and participated in maintaining a ship's closed system to get violently ill over a suits equivalent. If Karl had expressed some reservations over Murtaugh having her brain rebuilt from incomplete backup, or if other Toughs were acting more in line with how they've reacted in the past, this would feel a Lot less forced. (Bunnigus's well over 48+ hour brain fart and the lack of other restorations bug me most)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:54 am 
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We didn't hear much from the other Toughs about Murtaugh's rebuild, but we know SHE had a problem with it. But there are a lot of perception differences between Murtaugh and Tagon's deaths. Murtaugh was rebuilt from her own remains, and as you point out, people are used to that. Her backup was compromised, yes, but it was also up to date. Maybe she can't remember the books she read, or the face of her best friend - but she remembers the current mission, and the names of the Toughs she's recently met. Her rebuild was immediate, not four flipping months later (Roll for Continuity Stress says the Eclipse Phase player.) Tagon was very, very dead and very, very gone.


As far as the waste recycling goes, I'm reminded of some research I heard about this year. On a city scale, people get quite upset if you tell them their water is recycled waste. A lot of that anger disappears if you give them distance - if you tell them it's waste that was purified and piped from another city, or if you say it's waste that was purified and then allowed to sit in a reservoir for a year before use. There is no practical difference in either case, but the emotions change. I dare say with restoring backups it's a bit the opposite - people are less upset if you decrease the memory gap and don't take very long to rebuild the person, even if the philosophical questions are exactly the same in either case.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:10 pm 
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Kendrakirai wrote:

So somebody who makes that choice, goes through with it, but somehow survives, but has no memory of making that choice isn't the same person?

What about people who decide to commit suicide during a dissociative state and have no memory of doing so when they wake up in the hospital?

Go ahead and tell me that you think that anybody who suffers a brain injury and forgets parts of their life isn't the same person. Go tell somebody who has somebody like that in their family. Tell them about this 'program fork' analogy. I'll wait until you come out of intensive care. Maybe you'll even have forgotten you did it due to just such an injury, and you can convince yourself you aren't the same person you were.

Having been in close proximity to the brain damage case, more than once, I can tell you that the person afterwards is not the same as the person before. They are still family of course, but the father that was before is not the same as the father that is now. Personality, memory, and most importantly, how they view those memories has all changed, and treating that person who suffered trauma as if they are the same as before makes no one involved happy.

Realizing, even with no continuity gap, that the person I knew is gone is a strange experience, and it informs a lot of my opinions on this topic. With my own father, it was in subtle ways, and actually led to me re-connecting with him. With a friend's father, the damage was so extreme that they actually mourned him as dead, even though the body was still breathing and re-learning to walk and talk.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:28 am 
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Motortiki wrote:
Kendrakirai wrote:

So somebody who makes that choice, goes through with it, but somehow survives, but has no memory of making that choice isn't the same person?

What about people who decide to commit suicide during a dissociative state and have no memory of doing so when they wake up in the hospital?

Go ahead and tell me that you think that anybody who suffers a brain injury and forgets parts of their life isn't the same person. Go tell somebody who has somebody like that in their family. Tell them about this 'program fork' analogy. I'll wait until you come out of intensive care. Maybe you'll even have forgotten you did it due to just such an injury, and you can convince yourself you aren't the same person you were.

Having been in close proximity to the brain damage case, more than once, I can tell you that the person afterwards is not the same as the person before. They are still family of course, but the father that was before is not the same as the father that is now. Personality, memory, and most importantly, how they view those memories has all changed, and treating that person who suffered trauma as if they are the same as before makes no one involved happy.

Realizing, even with no continuity gap, that the person I knew is gone is a strange experience, and it informs a lot of my opinions on this topic. With my own father, it was in subtle ways, and actually led to me re-connecting with him. With a friend's father, the damage was so extreme that they actually mourned him as dead, even though the body was still breathing and re-learning to walk and talk.

I had a stroke six years ago. I had to basically come back from the dead. My memories are largely intact. My personality is different. Even my wife and son say I'm a different person, but still entitled to the positions of 'husband' and 'father.' Of course, I think the personality difference is about five percent. Nobody made a memorial to my former self though.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:27 am 
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evileeyore wrote:
Motortiki wrote:
But he hasn't.

How many times does Kaff have to die sacrificing himself for others and then have that sacrifice undone and his memories reset to a prior "fork" for you to accept that that is a basic personality trait of his?

More than twice I presume.

Quote:
I assert that facing that choice fundamentally changes a person.

I disagree. It might change a person. It might also simply be who the person always has been.



I would also like to point out, you keep asserting the choice changed him. So what? Who Kaff was before the choice is the same person he is now.

I figured out a good way of saying what I mean: The Kaff Tagon who exsists is someone who would make that choice. The Kaff Tagon who died is someone who did make that choice.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:25 am 
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So it's time to bump the discussion of "Am I still me" again.

Looking over the archives, I found http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-05-20

"I want to be reassured that I'm the woman I used to be". This was a Laz-3 head blown. They recovered the body parts, and had a 4 day "you are dead".

Not 4 months, but 4 days.

She wants to be welcomed back as the same captain that she was before.

Her new body is more unlike her old body than Kaff's body. She was more unsure of "am I the same person" than he. Yet there was no forum outcry.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:08 am 
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If I recall correctly, there was, just not as dramatic as this one. I think the old argument of whether teraports kill you or not got kicked around.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:26 am 
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keybounce wrote:
So it's time to bump the discussion of "Am I still me" again.

Looking over the archives, I found http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2015-05-20

"I want to be reassured that I'm the woman I used to be". This was a Laz-3 head blown. They recovered the body parts, and had a 4 day "you are dead".

Not 4 months, but 4 days.

She wants to be welcomed back as the same captain that she was before.

Her new body is more unlike her old body than Kaff's body. She was more unsure of "am I the same person" than he. Yet there was no forum outcry.

The big difference is that she was worrying if she was the same person, rather than her being outright told that she wasn't the same person. Which if you consider that she lost the ten days prior to her death and 1% of her memories in general makes the way that Kaff is being treated after losing just 40 minutes far worse.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:19 am 
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Grashtel wrote:
Which if you consider that she lost the ten days prior to her death and 1% of her memories in general makes the way that Kaff is being treated after losing just 40 minutes far worse.

Again: Exactly how is he being treated?

Only one person has outright said "you are not the Kaff that died" and that was a robot not designed for bedside manner*. Karl has chided him a few times, but aside from that everyone else has treated him as the old Kaff Tagon.


Now, during his absence, Karl has been dealing with his lack of proper perspective. Which is why he was chided and offered the captaincy of the Toughs new cruiser and not told to prove himself to be the "real" Kaff Tagon.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:10 pm 
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This really didn't need to get bumped. But it's here now, so what the heck.

The difference so far as I can see is perception. Murtaugh was gone for less time, and people are used to "Suffered terrible damage but we bagged the bits in time." Tagon was reduced to monotonic vapour, and continued to suffer from a case of existence failure for long enough that people got used to him being dead.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:41 pm 
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Yeah. I'm pretty sure if people died for about as long as it takes to respawn in Call of Duty, it'd be perceived another way. A minor setback. A quirk of defensive technology. etc.

Also, http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2001-08-30, "I prefer taking the long, safe shot to marching into enemy territory with a bomb strapped to my chest."


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