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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:06 pm 
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Maybe they should name the ship Indiana....or Henry.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:27 pm 
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Spitfire.

But yeah, I suppose maneuvering would be the objective for this ship.


Plus maybe you can use this to paint a target for the long gun?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:36 pm 
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Wow, I never actually realized how small Kitesfear was.

If that barrel is 45m, and the anni is another 5m a Dragon class probably isn't much more than 65m from point to point.

For reference.... the A-10 is 16.26 m long. And has it's main gun off-set as well.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:04 pm 
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All of this kind of raises the question - why the heck is the richest mercenary company in the universe giving the (ex?)CEO and previous highest ranking officer of the company a teensy tiny ship with questionable combat capabilities?


Last edited by JohnSmith on Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:05 pm 
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He probably could get something bigger if he wanted. This was more of something quick to get in 4 months so he had a deck under his feet. Also its cheap, so if its replaced quickly no big loss.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:07 pm 
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Daniel the Broc wrote:
. . . For reference.... the A-10 is 16.26 m long. And has it's main gun off-set as well.

The A-10 Warthog is a lot bigger than it looks.

JohnSmith wrote:
All of this kind of raises the question - why the heck is the richest mercenary company in the universe giving the (ex?)CEO and previous highest ranking officer of the company a teensy tiny ship with questionable combat capabilities?
Warior4356 wrote:
He probably could get something bigger if he wanted. This was more of something quick to get in 4 months so he had a deck under his feet. Also its cheap, so if its replaced quickly no big loss.

Also, AFAWK nobody has actually deployed a ship of this configuration in combat, so they need to evolve a combat doctrine for it . . . and that is generally regarded as requiring a more skilled and experienced officer than would normally be assigned to a ship of those capabilities.

--FreeFlier


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:52 pm 
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It's not a bad strategy, if everyone is bulletproof. I somehow doubt shields are that much more effective than regular weapons, though. In particular, this new ship would need loads of shielding to make good use of the main gun.

Also, I'm wondering why they didn't just give him an existing oafan ship. They couldn't have sold/scrapped them all already. Best I can figure is they aren't well designed as warships, which might make sense if their offense was just the long guns.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:02 pm 
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I think the main point is this ship is very agile.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:58 pm 
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That weapon sounds suspiciously familiar to the design of the hyperspace death ray. I wonder if the project's cause of demise was more political than financial in nature.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:21 am 
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ExenTrik wrote:
It's not a bad strategy, if everyone is bulletproof. I somehow doubt shields are that much more effective than regular weapons, though. In particular, this new ship would need loads of shielding to make good use of the main gun.

Also, I'm wondering why they didn't just give him an existing oafan ship. They couldn't have sold/scrapped them all already. Best I can figure is they aren't well designed as warships, which might make sense if their offense was just the long guns.


Same reason kevyn is not using one. They are worth a fortune and losing them in combat is dumb.

Also I believe in this universe, the "knife" is gravy guns. Guns being Missiles mostly.


Last edited by Warior4356 on Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:26 am 
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I'm reminded of "On Basilisk Station", myself.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:58 am 
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Sean wrote:
I'm reminded of "On Basilisk Station", myself.

Hmmmm . . . true . . .

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:14 am 
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Daniel the Broc wrote:
Wow, I never actually realized how small Kitesfear was.

If that barrel is 45m, and the anni is another 5m a Dragon class probably isn't much more than 65m from point to point.

For reference.... the A-10 is 16.26 m long. And has it's main gun off-set as well.



Kitesfear is 70m long according to the diagram's in the books it is tiny, for example the WW2 US Navy Fletcher class destroyer is 115m long (15m longer than the Serial Peacemaker) and weighs 2000 tons and is the most produced US destroyer with 175 built.

The dragon class cruiser is clearly a cheap mass produced and disposable escort ship.

We know Bristlecone is the Toughs smallest ship so far as it's a gunboat. If only we knew how big the Neosynchronicity was. It was called a corvette by the UNS so it may be a little smaller than a Dragon class.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:03 am 
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Tagon's always done well with small ship operations. Giving him a smaller, more maneuverable ship with the capability to punch well above its weight class and he'd do very well for the material available on the table.

A gravy braided ship gun also sounds like DME killing equipment.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:27 am 
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ushio wrote:
Kitesfear is 70m long according to the diagram's in the books it is tiny, for example the WW2 US Navy Fletcher class destroyer is 115m long (15m longer than the Serial Peacemaker) and weighs 2000 tons and is the most produced US destroyer with 175 built.

The dragon class cruiser is clearly a cheap mass produced and disposable escort ship.



That's actually a much better comparison. I got hung up on the over-sized- off-center main gun mount.

Flower-class corvettes were the mainstay of Atlantic escorts in WW2, and they were 62m, with a crew of 85.

And really though. None of the usual armament was removed. So this is still the same great warship ship that Tagon used for years. It can't go toe to toe with battleplates, but it's not supposed to. But it may actually hold it's own against frigates now, punching way above it's weight-class. I think that's something Tagon can get behind, and I think he's more comfortable with that role than he is being a Capital ship captain.

http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2001-03-21


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:04 am 
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Ships of such a size were also notoriously unpleasant vessels to sail, due to the cramped conditions and large quantities of machinery. And most of the Kitesfear is taken up by its annie plant...

"...a compact mass of machinery not meant to keep the sea nor to live in... as five sevenths of the ship are taken up by machinery and fuel, whilst the remaining two sevenths, fore and aft, are the crew's quarters; officers forward and the men placed aft. And even in those spaces are placed anchor engines, steering engines, steam pipes, etc. rendering them unbearably hot in tropical regions."

"Being in command of a destroyer for a long period, especially in wartime... is not very good for the health. Life on a destroyer in winter, with bad food, no comforts, would sap the powers of the strongest men in the long run. A destroyer is always more uncomfortable than the others, and rain, snow, and sea-water combine to make them damp; in fact, in bad weather there is not a dry spot where one can rest for a moment. Yesterday I looked at myself in a mirror for a long time; I was disagreeably surprised to see my face thin, full of wrinkles, and as old as though I were fifty. My clothes cover nothing but a skeleton, and my bones are full of rheumatism."

But then I don't really recall how big the company was back on those days. It might have only been a couple of dozen people? I wonder who'll be posted to his new command, maybe Ennesby will even get a hull under him again!

Edit: although my knowledge of warships only goes to the early 20th century, a quick google reveals a modern ship of twice that length (and of course the Kitesfear is much wider) can accommodate up to two hundred.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:04 pm 
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mossyfisk wrote:
Ships of such a size were also notoriously unpleasant vessels to sail, due to the cramped conditions and large quantities of machinery. And most of the Kitesfear is taken up by its annie plant...

"...a compact mass of machinery not meant to keep the sea nor to live in... as five sevenths of the ship are taken up by machinery and fuel, whilst the remaining two sevenths, fore and aft, are the crew's quarters; officers forward and the men placed aft. And even in those spaces are placed anchor engines, steering engines, steam pipes, etc. rendering them unbearably hot in tropical regions."

"Being in command of a destroyer for a long period, especially in wartime... is not very good for the health. Life on a destroyer in winter, with bad food, no comforts, would sap the powers of the strongest men in the long run. A destroyer is always more uncomfortable than the others, and rain, snow, and sea-water combine to make them damp; in fact, in bad weather there is not a dry spot where one can rest for a moment. Yesterday I looked at myself in a mirror for a long time; I was disagreeably surprised to see my face thin, full of wrinkles, and as old as though I were fifty. My clothes cover nothing but a skeleton, and my bones are full of rheumatism."

But then I don't really recall how big the company was back on those days. It might have only been a couple of dozen people? I wonder who'll be posted to his new command, maybe Ennesby will even get a hull under him again!

Edit: although my knowledge of warships only goes to the early 20th century, a quick google reveals a modern ship of twice that length (and of course the Kitesfear is much wider) can accommodate up to two hundred.




The Toughs have always been under a hundred people even when they had the 3 ships at the beginning of the 15th book. Back when they had the Kitesfear they where much smaller than that. While a Fletcher had a crew of over 300. So I don't think it's going to be cramped.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:21 pm 
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I see two, opposing, points on this.
On one hand, you'd use as much automation as possible to reduce the manpower requirements of the ship. For the same ship, adding automation, and thus reducing crew complement, would free up space for the remaining crew
On the other hand, you'd reduce the overall size of the vessel to match the volume demanded by the manpower requirements, plus materiel, that the ship has to accommodate.
So, presumably, a 30th century craft would be no more pleasant to operate than a 20th century craft. You'd only build it as big as it needed to be, at least so long as it was a working ship.

Of course, with terraport cages, if they can't be blocked, there's no real reason to put the magazines, or even the quarters, aboard the ship. That would allow for tiny, gnat-sized, ships that could dish out damage on par with much larger craft, both in terms of instantaneous damage and damage over time.


ushio wrote:
mossyfisk wrote:
Ships of such a size were also notoriously unpleasant vessels to sail, due to the cramped conditions and large quantities of machinery. And most of the Kitesfear is taken up by its annie plant...

"...a compact mass of machinery not meant to keep the sea nor to live in... as five sevenths of the ship are taken up by machinery and fuel, whilst the remaining two sevenths, fore and aft, are the crew's quarters; officers forward and the men placed aft. And even in those spaces are placed anchor engines, steering engines, steam pipes, etc. rendering them unbearably hot in tropical regions."

"Being in command of a destroyer for a long period, especially in wartime... is not very good for the health. Life on a destroyer in winter, with bad food, no comforts, would sap the powers of the strongest men in the long run. A destroyer is always more uncomfortable than the others, and rain, snow, and sea-water combine to make them damp; in fact, in bad weather there is not a dry spot where one can rest for a moment. Yesterday I looked at myself in a mirror for a long time; I was disagreeably surprised to see my face thin, full of wrinkles, and as old as though I were fifty. My clothes cover nothing but a skeleton, and my bones are full of rheumatism."

But then I don't really recall how big the company was back on those days. It might have only been a couple of dozen people? I wonder who'll be posted to his new command, maybe Ennesby will even get a hull under him again!

Edit: although my knowledge of warships only goes to the early 20th century, a quick google reveals a modern ship of twice that length (and of course the Kitesfear is much wider) can accommodate up to two hundred.




The Toughs have always been under a hundred people even when they had the 3 ships at the beginning of the 15th book. Back when they had the Kitesfear they where much smaller than that. While a Fletcher had a crew of over 300. So I don't think it's going to be cramped.


Last edited by Sean on Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:59 pm 
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"Seeing as you decided to go out in a blaze of glory, here's a ship that will allow you to do knife-fighting maneuvers."

"As you blew up an STS warhead to take out enemy troops last time, we're expecting much bigger enemies taken down now."


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:02 pm 
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Reaver225 wrote:
A gravy braided ship gun also sounds like DME killing equipment.

I wonder about that. They gravity in this case isn't the real weapon, it's mass to pierce a shield with to get the actual weapon through. I expect it'd be like hitting them with a hammer, it'll hurt but won't compare to teraporting them full of holes.

Sean wrote:
Of course, with terraport cages, if they can't be blocked, there's no real reason to put the magazines, or even the quarters, aboard the ship. That would allow for tiny, gnat-sized, ships that could dish out damage on par with much larger craft, both in terms of instantaneous damage and damage over time.

Oh I like that idea. Ammo teracages I suppose you'd call them. The only argument I can see against it is a security one, but setting up teraport cages to self destruct is a small matter. Alternatively, if the energy using it is high enough a conventional energy weapon might be more effective in the long run, we don't quite have that information. But I expect at least some ammo would have enough of a yield to compensate.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:16 pm 
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Actually, a gravy-braided plasma beam is basically just....a ship-mounted plasma lance. The gravity braid is what keeps the plasma from dispersing into a diffuse cone since the EM field isn't enough for ship-to-ship distances.

At least, that's what I recall from my last archive run.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:22 pm 
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grahamf wrote:
Plus maybe you can use this to paint a target for the long gun?


I think this is going to be the main use for the main gun.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:19 pm 
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Kendrakirai wrote:
Actually, a gravy-braided plasma beam is basically just....a ship-mounted plasma lance. The gravity braid is what keeps the plasma from dispersing into a diffuse cone since the EM field isn't enough for ship-to-ship distances.

At least, that's what I recall from my last archive run.


Yup, and according to the archives it'll keep the thing going for interplanetary distances.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:27 pm 
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JohnSmith wrote:
Kendrakirai wrote:
Actually, a gravy-braided plasma beam is basically just....a ship-mounted plasma lance. The gravity braid is what keeps the plasma from dispersing into a diffuse cone since the EM field isn't enough for ship-to-ship distances.

At least, that's what I recall from my last archive run.


Yup, and according to the archives it'll keep the thing going for interplanetary distances.


If it weren't for us being TOLD it's a short-range weapon, I could see a potential use for it. Fire it, then let your beaters herd your target into its path.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:45 pm 
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Hey, wait.. isn't Captain Kaff Tagon especially skilled with a combat knife? I seem to remember him being especially scary at close range...


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:56 pm 
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0z79 wrote:
Hey, wait.. isn't Captain Kaff Tagon especially skilled with a combat knife? I seem to remember him being especially scary at close range...


He does seem to get good use out of his lethal shoelaces, yes.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:08 pm 
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Sean wrote:
0z79 wrote:
Hey, wait.. isn't Captain Kaff Tagon especially skilled with a combat knife? I seem to remember him being especially scary at close range...


He does seem to get good use out of his lethal shoelaces, yes.


I was thinking more of when someone threw a knife into his eye and he plucked it out, threw the eye away, then thanked his assailant before gutting him like a fish, with said knife. :p


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:36 am 
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Sean wrote:
JohnSmith wrote:
Kendrakirai wrote:
Actually, a gravy-braided plasma beam is basically just....a ship-mounted plasma lance. The gravity braid is what keeps the plasma from dispersing into a diffuse cone since the EM field isn't enough for ship-to-ship distances.

At least, that's what I recall from my last archive run.


Yup, and according to the archives it'll keep the thing going for interplanetary distances.


If it weren't for us being TOLD it's a short-range weapon, I could see a potential use for it. Fire it, then let your beaters herd your target into its path.


I'd guess from the description that it's a long-range plasma lance but the gravitic braid weakens too much for it to break shields long before it stops containing the plasma. Which would mean it's deadly at long range if you can strip a target's shields by some other means, but usually if you can take out their shields you can destroy them with the same weapon.

My guess is that they were originally designed to operate in packs, letting at least some get into effective range and take out much larger ships. Or, since they're from the wormgate era, to lurk near gates and destroy ships as they pass through.


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