The Nightstar Zoo

Nightstar IRC Network - irc.nightstar.net
It is currently Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:39 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:03 pm 
Offline
Intern
Intern
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:52 pm
Posts: 1046
Well the Stature becomes moot anyways. Also, Seems Schlock has gotten over the dying thing - as it turns out a little bloodbath was just the ticket after all.

_________________
If you need to use a squeegee, they're probably at least Laz-4


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:38 pm 
Offline
Entertainment
Entertainment

Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:01 pm
Posts: 744
grahamf wrote:
Well the Stature becomes moot anyways. Also, Seems Schlock has gotten over the dying thing - as it turns out a little bloodbath was just the ticket after all.

I just wish they'd stop the "new version" thing--that adds complications that aren't there.

_________________
I used to be Junius Gallio, until I messed up retyping my password in the Great Password Reset. Nice to be back.

" I gotta stop doing mathematics while sober."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:06 pm 
Offline
Monkey House Exhibit
Monkey House Exhibit

Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:53 pm
Posts: 399
Well what else are they supposed to call it? It's not the original person being revived. It's a new copy being downloaded into a cloned body. This is obvious when you realize its perfectly possible to use this process when the original version hasn't actually died yet.

In fact since Evvy has a penchant for downloading the consciousnesses of the people it grabs we might actually see more than one copy of people running around.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:24 am 
Offline
Janitor
Janitor
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:44 pm
Posts: 2274
Arcanestomper wrote:
In fact since Evvy has a penchant for downloading the consciousnesses of the people it grabs we might actually see more than one copy of people running around.

Unlikely as Evvy has also replaced the original with a new mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:39 am 
Offline
Intern
Intern
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:03 am
Posts: 1138
evileeyore wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
In fact since Evvy has a penchant for downloading the consciousnesses of the people it grabs we might actually see more than one copy of people running around.

Unlikely as Evvy has also replaced the original with a new mind.

What he means is that a downloaded, virtual version will be snorted into the machine, and we will see them running around. Their hijacked originals will then commit suicide, and upon being dead, they'll be duplicated from backup while the originals are still virtual people.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:19 am 
Offline
Entertainment
Entertainment

Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:01 pm
Posts: 744
Arcanestomper wrote:
It's not the original person being revived.


I still see that as a difference that isn't a difference. But I also realize that if the series author doesn't see it that way, then my objections aren't terribly relevant.

Quote:
In fact since Evvy has a penchant for downloading the consciousnesses of the people it grabs we might actually see more than one copy of people running around.

Oh, we already had that with the Gate-Clones, and the Gav-Clones.

_________________
I used to be Junius Gallio, until I messed up retyping my password in the Great Password Reset. Nice to be back.

" I gotta stop doing mathematics while sober."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:29 am 
Offline
Safari Exhibit
Safari Exhibit

Joined: Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:41 pm
Posts: 157
The thought of this god-AI being so powerful as to sneer at their crude backups, hunt THOSE down and exterminate/assimilate.... then find the cute widdle fuzzy bear and put him in a jar for giggles, makes me smile :twisted:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:37 pm 
Offline
Janitor
Janitor
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:44 pm
Posts: 2274
Fishman wrote:
What he means is that a downloaded, virtual version will be snorted into the machine, and we will see them running around. Their hijacked originals will then commit suicide, and upon being dead, they'll be duplicated from backup while the originals are still virtual people.

Ah, yes, good call.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:40 pm 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 10:10 pm
Posts: 344
Fishman wrote:
evileeyore wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
In fact since Evvy has a penchant for downloading the consciousnesses of the people it grabs we might actually see more than one copy of people running around.

Unlikely as Evvy has also replaced the original with a new mind.

What he means is that a downloaded, virtual version will be snorted into the machine, and we will see them running around. Their hijacked originals will then commit suicide, and upon being dead, they'll be duplicated from backup while the originals are still virtual people.


Or, the god-machine will lose them, because their RED backup and restore functions provide anti-virus type defenses against just this type of attack. Then you get two copies without one committing suicide and being revived first.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:50 pm 
Offline
Monkey House Exhibit
Monkey House Exhibit

Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:53 pm
Posts: 399
Black Sheep wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
It's not the original person being revived.


I still see that as a difference that isn't a difference. But I also realize that if the series author doesn't see it that way, then my objections aren't terribly relevant.


Certainly the new copy is not a lesser version. It is essentially the person minus whatever few minutes to hours of memory they lived between their backup and their death. So in all practical respects it is the same person being revived. I mean that's the point. If it wasn't essentially the same person then the original would have no incentive to make backups.

Still from a continuity of consciousness perspective the original died and a brand new version is being made. The terminology might be a bit harsh, but its accurate.

Sean wrote:
Fishman wrote:
evileeyore wrote:
Unlikely as Evvy has also replaced the original with a new mind.

What he means is that a downloaded, virtual version will be snorted into the machine, and we will see them running around. Their hijacked originals will then commit suicide, and upon being dead, they'll be duplicated from backup while the originals are still virtual people.


Or, the god-machine will lose them, because their RED backup and restore functions provide anti-virus type defenses against just this type of attack. Then you get two copies without one committing suicide and being revived first.


Or we could have the scenario where 1. Evvy takes control of the original and makes a new digital copy. 2. The hijacked original drops out of contact so the backup facility generates a new version. And finally 3. the redhack defenses kick in restoring the original to full control.

Pretty unlikely, but it would be hilarious.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:40 pm 
Offline
Entertainment
Entertainment

Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:54 am
Posts: 682
Arcanestomper wrote:
Certainly the new copy is not a lesser version. It is essentially the person minus whatever few minutes to hours of memory they lived between their backup and their death. So in all practical respects it is the same person being revived. I mean that's the point. If it wasn't essentially the same person then the original would have no incentive to make backups.

Still from a continuity of consciousness perspective the original died and a brand new version is being made. The terminology might be a bit harsh, but its accurate.

Absolutely true.

I personally wonder if the loss of continuity is actually any worse than the one we suffer when we sleep, but it's definitely there in this scenario. Any hypothetical alien that didn't sleep would probably be horrified at the concept that a human conscious mind just... stops once a day. And arguing about 'states of consciousness' just isn't going to cut it. My brain doesn't cease activity, but that's hardly the same thing as having the "John Smith" process running. A BSODed computer still has all the transistors powered, but it's certainly not running Windows.


Back to the comic. Given the "Let's make sure our RED backups are current" premise, I feel pretty confident we're going to end up with everybody abducted by the Galactic All-Stars, new versions of them cloned up, and then both groups meeting in the middle somewhere. Just to drive all the weirdness home.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:50 am 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 10:10 pm
Posts: 344
I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure my self.bin is running throughout sleep, but my spool/memory keeps getting flushed.

I'm certainly "aware" when I'm asleep. Sometimes I even remember being aware. I even have opinions on the events within my dreams. You don't?



JohnSmith wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
Certainly the new copy is not a lesser version. It is essentially the person minus whatever few minutes to hours of memory they lived between their backup and their death. So in all practical respects it is the same person being revived. I mean that's the point. If it wasn't essentially the same person then the original would have no incentive to make backups.

Still from a continuity of consciousness perspective the original died and a brand new version is being made. The terminology might be a bit harsh, but its accurate.

Absolutely true.

I personally wonder if the loss of continuity is actually any worse than the one we suffer when we sleep, but it's definitely there in this scenario. Any hypothetical alien that didn't sleep would probably be horrified at the concept that a human conscious mind just... stops once a day. And arguing about 'states of consciousness' just isn't going to cut it. My brain doesn't cease activity, but that's hardly the same thing as having the "John Smith" process running. A BSODed computer still has all the transistors powered, but it's certainly not running Windows.


Back to the comic. Given the "Let's make sure our RED backups are current" premise, I feel pretty confident we're going to end up with everybody abducted by the Galactic All-Stars, new versions of them cloned up, and then both groups meeting in the middle somewhere. Just to drive all the weirdness home.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:26 am 
Offline
Entertainment
Entertainment

Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:54 am
Posts: 682
Dreams only take up a percentage of your sleeping time, and loss of memory function is a pretty big impediment to having a continuous conscious experience. Like I said, the biology still trucks away but I don't know that counts in any philosophically meaningful way.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:34 pm 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 10:10 pm
Posts: 344
JohnSmith wrote:
Dreams only take up a percentage of your sleeping time, and loss of memory function is a pretty big impediment to having a continuous conscious experience. Like I said, the biology still trucks away but I don't know that counts in any philosophically meaningful way.


Have you ever been awakened from sleep, and NOT had the vestiges of the last dream still echoing inside your short-term memory?
I would think that if you didn't dream at all, in say Delta sleep, you'd notice on being forced awake from that state.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:20 pm 
Offline
Entertainment
Entertainment

Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:54 am
Posts: 682
I don't know what you're trying to say, Sean. If you have a dream you remember... it's the last thing that you remember, whatever else your brain was doing. That has nothing to do with consciousness ending for a while.

EDIT:
Maybe you misunderstand how sleep works? You don't have "one dream a night" or something. You have closer to a dozen as your brain cycles through the sleep stages. In some of them, like REM, you might as well be awake - your brain is almost certainly running some variation of human.exe. In others, the activity really doesn't fit with anything we'd consider higher activity - the prefrontal cortex is nearly shut down. That you 'remember a dream' when woken up doesn't mean much, as whatever the last dream to get chucked into short-term store will be recalled, even if whatever level of awareness was involved in the dream has since faded out.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:50 pm 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:53 pm
Posts: 356
Sean wrote:
I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure my self.bin is running throughout sleep, but my spool/memory keeps getting flushed.

I'm certainly "aware" when I'm asleep. Sometimes I even remember being aware. I even have opinions on the events within my dreams. You don't?


That's actually pretty rare.

Most people are not "aware" while dreaming. Very few are aware that they are aware and in a dream.

I would say that many, if not most, of the people who are "aware" while dreaming are not making fully rational, conscious decisions -- and if they remember what they did, on wakeup, will wonder why they did that, and write it off to "not thinking fully while dreaming".

Full lucid dreaming, where you know you are dreaming, are able to think clearly, and intentionally take control/do things while dreaming, is actually very rare.

NB: There is a way to (supposedly) train yourself to lucid dreaming. Get into the habbit of asking, "Am I dreaming now?" or "Let me prove that I'm not dreaming", with the idea being that when you reach the point of asking that (From habbit) in your dream, you'll realize that you are dreaming / cannot prove that you are not, and then you'll be aware, and in control of your dream. For me? I was able to prove that I was not dreaming while dreaming :-).

_________________
I hope Para never plays with Tenzy. The result would be terrifying.
Para and Petey need to have some dialog together. Just because.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:43 pm 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 10:10 pm
Posts: 344
JohnSmith wrote:
I don't know what you're trying to say, Sean. If you have a dream you remember... it's the last thing that you remember, whatever else your brain was doing. That has nothing to do with consciousness ending for a while.

EDIT:
Maybe you misunderstand how sleep works? You don't have "one dream a night" or something. You have closer to a dozen as your brain cycles through the sleep stages. In some of them, like REM, you might as well be awake - your brain is almost certainly running some variation of human.exe. In others, the activity really doesn't fit with anything we'd consider higher activity - the prefrontal cortex is nearly shut down. That you 'remember a dream' when woken up doesn't mean much, as whatever the last dream to get chucked into short-term store will be recalled, even if whatever level of awareness was involved in the dream has since faded out.


Short term is only about seven seconds, give or take. If it's not logged to long-term by then, it's gone.
You're saying short-term, while asleep, functions radically different than short-term while awake? With details lasting past the few seconds point?


keybounce wrote:

That's actually pretty rare.

Most people are not "aware" while dreaming. Very few are aware that they are aware and in a dream.

I would say that many, if not most, of the people who are "aware" while dreaming are not making fully rational, conscious decisions -- and if they remember what they did, on wakeup, will wonder why they did that, and write it off to "not thinking fully while dreaming".

Full lucid dreaming, where you know you are dreaming, are able to think clearly, and intentionally take control/do things while dreaming, is actually very rare.

NB: There is a way to (supposedly) train yourself to lucid dreaming. Get into the habbit of asking, "Am I dreaming now?" or "Let me prove that I'm not dreaming", with the idea being that when you reach the point of asking that (From habbit) in your dream, you'll realize that you are dreaming / cannot prove that you are not, and then you'll be aware, and in control of your dream. For me? I was able to prove that I was not dreaming while dreaming :-).


Oh, I don't always realize I'm dreaming. Often, but not always. But even when I'm not cognizant that I'm, in fact, not conscious, I still have thoughts and opinions on the shadows that dance across the wall of Plato's cave.

And my favorite, and mostly reliable, test is gravity. If gravity is toward my ear while I'm standing up, I'm asleep. Also, the whole world tends to sound like my head is under water, but I usually don't notice that.

These days it's "Oh, hey, I'm more scatterbrained than when I'm awake, and things shift to match my thoughts. Yep. Dreaming."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:22 pm 
Offline
Entertainment
Entertainment

Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:54 am
Posts: 682
Quote:
Short term is only about seven seconds, give or take. If it's not logged to long-term by then, it's gone.
You're saying short-term, while asleep, functions radically different than short-term while awake? With details lasting past the few seconds point?
Colloquial use of "short term memory." Though SOMETHING is different about how dreams and memory function. The fact that most people lose 99.9% of their memories demonstrates that. It certainly doesn't get consolidated normally.

All of which is beside my point, of course. We KNOW there are periods when you are not dreaming and brain activity is quite low. If these periods don't count as "consciousness being off" I think we have a serious case of sprinting goalposts.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:36 am 
Offline
Entertainment
Entertainment
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:02 am
Posts: 684
Sean wrote:

Oh, I don't always realize I'm dreaming. Often, but not always. But even when I'm not cognizant that I'm, in fact, not conscious, I still have thoughts and opinions on the shadows that dance across the wall of Plato's cave.

And my favorite, and mostly reliable, test is gravity. If gravity is toward my ear while I'm standing up, I'm asleep. Also, the whole world tends to sound like my head is under water, but I usually don't notice that.

These days it's "Oh, hey, I'm more scatterbrained than when I'm awake, and things shift to match my thoughts. Yep. Dreaming."

I used to have issues with lucid dreaming, for a time I had difficulty telling real memories apart from dream memories. I still have those incredibly real, vivid dreams sometimes, but I've gotten better at recognizing and gaining control when it happens. Asking myself, "am I dreaming?", is usually enough. The trick is, remembering to ask. ;)

I hadn't thought of the gravity test, that sounds like a good one :).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:01 pm 
Offline
Monkey House Exhibit
Monkey House Exhibit

Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:53 pm
Posts: 399
Motortiki wrote:
Sean wrote:

Oh, I don't always realize I'm dreaming. Often, but not always. But even when I'm not cognizant that I'm, in fact, not conscious, I still have thoughts and opinions on the shadows that dance across the wall of Plato's cave.

And my favorite, and mostly reliable, test is gravity. If gravity is toward my ear while I'm standing up, I'm asleep. Also, the whole world tends to sound like my head is under water, but I usually don't notice that.

These days it's "Oh, hey, I'm more scatterbrained than when I'm awake, and things shift to match my thoughts. Yep. Dreaming."

I used to have issues with lucid dreaming, for a time I had difficulty telling real memories apart from dream memories. I still have those incredibly real, vivid dreams sometimes, but I've gotten better at recognizing and gaining control when it happens. Asking myself, "am I dreaming?", is usually enough. The trick is, remembering to ask. ;)

I hadn't thought of the gravity test, that sounds like a good one :).


My brains gotten tricky on me. It likes to start dreams off with me in my bed just waking up. I'll do my "Is this a dream test", and then it pops the surreal stuff.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:18 pm 
Offline
Entertainment
Entertainment
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:02 am
Posts: 684
Arcanestomper wrote:

My brains gotten tricky on me. It likes to start dreams off with me in my bed just waking up. I'll do my "Is this a dream test", and then it pops the surreal stuff.

The worst is when I wake up, take a shower, brush my teeth, commute... and then my alarm wakes me up, and I have to do it all over again.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:22 am 
Offline
Monkey House Exhibit
Monkey House Exhibit

Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:53 pm
Posts: 399
Motortiki wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:

My brains gotten tricky on me. It likes to start dreams off with me in my bed just waking up. I'll do my "Is this a dream test", and then it pops the surreal stuff.

The worst is when I wake up, take a shower, brush my teeth, commute... and then my alarm wakes me up, and I have to do it all over again.


Yeah I've had that happen. Best case I'll wonder why I'm commuting in a helicopter and realize what's going on. Worst case I'll "wake up" multiple times.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:29 am 
Offline
Entertainment
Entertainment

Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:40 pm
Posts: 597
Location: Land of the webbed feet
Arcanestomper wrote:
My brains gotten tricky on me. It likes to start dreams off with me in my bed just waking up. I'll do my "Is this a dream test", and then it pops the surreal stuff.
Motortiki wrote:
The worst is when I wake up, take a shower, brush my teeth, commute... and then my alarm wakes me up, and I have to do it all over again.
Arcanestomper wrote:
Yeah I've had that happen. Best case I'll wonder why I'm commuting in a helicopter and realize what's going on. Worst case I'll "wake up" multiple times.

So you're being trolled by your own brains. :lol: :lol: :lol:

--FreeFlier


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:20 pm 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:53 pm
Posts: 356
So dream gravity doesn't behave like real gravity for you?

_________________
I hope Para never plays with Tenzy. The result would be terrifying.
Para and Petey need to have some dialog together. Just because.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:45 pm 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 10:10 pm
Posts: 344
keybounce wrote:
So dream gravity doesn't behave like real gravity for you?


When I'm asleep, I have limited access to my sensorium. I suspect you've experienced the same. Realizing the siren in your dream is the alarm clock, for instance, (borrowing someone elses example.)
In my case, I have access to my inner ear, and since I don't sleep standing up, if gravity is pointing to one side, I'm laying down and asleep.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:13 pm 
Offline
Intern
Intern
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:52 pm
Posts: 1046
Sean wrote:
keybounce wrote:
So dream gravity doesn't behave like real gravity for you?


When I'm asleep, I have limited access to my sensorium. I suspect you've experienced the same. Realizing the siren in your dream is the alarm clock, for instance, (borrowing someone elses example.)
In my case, I have access to my inner ear, and since I don't sleep standing up, if gravity is pointing to one side, I'm laying down and asleep.

gravity is always sideways in your dreams. eventually you get used to it.

_________________
If you need to use a squeegee, they're probably at least Laz-4


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:40 pm 
Offline
Intern
Intern
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:03 am
Posts: 1138
keybounce wrote:
Full lucid dreaming, where you know you are dreaming, are able to think clearly, and intentionally take control/do things while dreaming, is actually very rare.
It's also why most people don't live longer than about a day or so, after which they die and are rebooted. The difference between the two people is really quite apparent to those of us who stay conscious to observe the process the entire time without going insane.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:57 am 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:53 pm
Posts: 356
But how do you know that you stayed sane? Your brain is only rated for about 20-30 hours duty cycle max (general adaptation stage 3 is a killer), and even at that it redlines after 15 hours or so (depending on age and condition).

You claim that the rebooted person is not the same, but perhaps your ability to sense this has taken wear damage?

Oh, and gravity in my dreams is always "apparent down".

_________________
I hope Para never plays with Tenzy. The result would be terrifying.
Para and Petey need to have some dialog together. Just because.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:39 pm 
Offline
Safari Exhibit
Safari Exhibit

Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:03 pm
Posts: 196
Every time I get a dream that I'm flying, I also get a massive migraine in my dream due to the mental effort involved in defying gravity.

_________________
May or may not run a Reaver-powered Perpetual Internal Combustion Engine of War And Shrapnel Fabber


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:55 pm 
Offline
Safari Exhibit
Safari Exhibit

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:00 pm
Posts: 149
dire wrote:
Every time I get a dream that I'm flying, I also get a massive migraine in my dream due to the mental effort involved in defying gravity.

They don't give me headaches, but apparently I go so vivid that I can't process it properly and I spin out of control and wake up. It's not quite like a nightmare because it's not scary at all, different from a falling dream, just a rush.

Been a long time since I had one though.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group