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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:14 am 
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JohnSmith wrote:
That argument boils down to "they don't work that way because my argument requires they not work that way." Not convincing.

That also describes almost every one of your arguments. Sooo... this train is on a circular track.

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As far as him reading the manual before, The whole point of the "training montage" was that the senior officers were retrained, then retrained their own officers, and so on down the chain of command. Tagon WAS trained, and DID train others, so it's hard to imagine he didn't read the manual.

I call your attention to:

"When I said "one-point-two times the mass of Earth," what did you think I meant?"

"Honestly? I thought "blah blah numbers his neck is too thick for then to be important.""


Even when Kaff is specifically told things, sometimes they slide right off his brain without sticking. Which is what I think your Thurl quote* is about as well. Kaff didn't pay attention in a briefing.

* But memory failure is possible. Which mission was that?

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Tagon skims a lot of things. Two things he's never ignored, to the best of my knowledge, are things with large tactical implications and payment terms.

Note above "blah blah".

That was large tactical implication. He did realize it, but not until later.... mostly because he ignored it in the briefing.

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I mean, having your brain restricted is pretty worth the term "hobbled," I think we can agree.

Yeah, that's what I think has happened here as well. A hardware lockout that keeps Iafa from being able to weaponize anything onboard. With the UNS, again I think it's a hardware lockout that restricts their ability to conceptualize along certain avenues of thought, mostly anything that allows a UNS fleet vessel AI to perform actions without orders having come from a meat-mind in the chain of command.

The exact same sort of hobbling that killed TAG.

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My argument doesn't depend on which of the three did the modifications in any way, but he seemed a natural choice.

Sure. And it's pretty logical... but I'm now leaning towards Kendrakirai's argument "It happened when Broken Wind was recommissioned".

But I'm still favorably inclined to Kaff being moron that refuses to RTFM. It just fits him too well.

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I'm reading this as "Yes, they are stupid enough to fly with an untrusted AI."

Have you even read this comic?!?!?!

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Which is fair enough...

Oh... okay, you have read the comic. Carry on.

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It certainly doesn't link up well with the arguments above - how could Tagon not be part of that decision?

Again, single line on a report dense with "Blah blah numbers... blah blah oh, we hit payroll with a bonus... blah blah oh look Para's fixing the ship up for our new crazy AI, [sarcasm] that'll go great [/sarcasm] blah blah..."

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He might have brought the General in, but he's still one of the highest ranking officers and the captain of the ship in question. That's not even paperwork, that's "Son, how do you feel about flying with the ex-crazy AI?" "Not great, dad."

Look at his eyes in the last panel. Just look at them and know the depths of feelings on this matter.

Those are the eyes of a man who knows "This AI is going to get me killed, why am I doing this? I serve a harsh master who makes me dance for other's amusement, damn you Howard Tayler."

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Eh, I don't find this very convincing, either. What we know of these matters is kinda spotty, but the limitation appears not to be energy, but computational power on the part of the AI.

It's always been a "Big ships can do this, little ships cannot".

I'm... I'm not sure where Broken Wind falls on the Big - Little scale or where the power curve falls such that control is fine enough to gravy the decks without painting the crew as well. But it's always been a big/little thing which I strongly suspect comes down to number of gravy of projectors. The more projectors, the finer the control.



Kendrakirai wrote:
So don't take Iafa's use during paintball to mean the lockout came AFTER. It was probably done during the initial refit that made Broken Wind usable by humanoids in the first place.

That is possible. It might have been done by Para during before they even took Broken Wind off station.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:58 pm 
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That also describes almost every one of your arguments. Sooo... this train is on a circular track.
Indeed. I enjoy a good argument, but I think this'll be my last post on the topic. I think we're both pretty set in our opinions.

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But memory failure is possible. Which mission was that?

Credomar, where there was a big difference between Delivery and Distribution. Please don't gloss over that in our LAST exchange, you asked for evidence that Tagon was forgetful. I've provided some, and I thank you for providing more.

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Oh... okay, you have read the comic. Carry on.
Heh. I started on my argument, then stopped. "No, that sounds exactly like them. Hmm."

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It's always been a "Big ships can do this, little ships cannot".

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Since when was fine control a factor? Fine gravy control is less a factor of AI power and more 'number of sources of gravity you can bring to bear.'

When Haban did it, it was "You need a very smart AI."
Ennesby could do it on the Serial Peacemaker,when he was an HV6. Only one locus of control though, or thereabouts. Also worth noting that he was fully capable of 1g acceleration, even without "gravy gun" levels of power.
All this said, I don't know it really matters. You're still left with the problems A) locking your AI out of systems is a terrible idea and defeats the purpose of having an AI, and B) the limited "low power" control demonstrated during the paintball game could still have been useful.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:45 pm 
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Re: low power paintball usage still being useful - not really.

The Espees were mostly in power armor, they're perfectly at home in microgravity and thus with differing gravity zones, and there were like a dozen people left aboard the Broken Wind with minimal armor, few heavy weapons, and at least two of them are *civilians* (Ch'vorthq and Lizzie) versus a platoon of heavy armor-clad soldiers firing plasma, rockets, and rail guns, all of which are a *lot* more energetic and in the case of the rockets, almost certainly self-guided.

A tenth of a gee blip will pull a paintball going 20m/s off course enough to miss a man-sized target, if done at the right moment. It will barely even budge a rail gun flechette going 20*k*/s over that same distance. It'll just hit a couple millimeters to the left of where it's aimed.

Also, Doyt's armor had multiple small grav systems all over the armor, as well as an array of lasers, masers, and other energy projectors. He was fast enough to put up *single-point shields* and good enough to disable weapons. (we'll just chalk up the 'adding a safety' to the same early installment weirdness that made Kaff (and other Toughs who should really know better) hideously sexist and Speciesist, Schlock horny for humanoid women, and them actively talking with the narrator and breaking the fourth wall.)

I'll edit in an appropriate link to where point-shields are gone into, since I just passed that this morning in my re-read. EDIT: and here is that link. http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2001-07-15 note how it says deflecting energy weapons requires ten times as much power as that being deflected, and has to be done *fast*. That's a different thing from 'being able to twist Thurls head off his body while leaving everyone else untouched' that's the fine control I was talking about.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:01 am 
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JohnSmith wrote:
Credomar, where there was a big difference between Delivery and Distribution. Please don't gloss over that in our LAST exchange, you asked for evidence that Tagon was forgetful. I've provided some, and I thank you for providing more.

I checked. Kaff said "I can't remember", so you're right.

This time. Image


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:23 am 
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Monkey House Exhibit
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Oh, and one other thing, regarding flying with an ex-crazy AI. Remember they not only had no other AI that *could* fly one of the Oafan ships....if they didn't let her come along, they wouldn't HAVE any Oafan ships. Taking Iafa along was part of the deal of getting them, and their only ship (Bristlecone) was scrap, to the point they had to shut down (who would becom) Cindy in order for her to *not die* from 'quitting without saving'.

Clearly, they came to regret their security measures, and in the months to come between Eina-Afa and the Worldforge, they'd learn to trust Iafa and forget they did it in the first place, but at the time of the refit, they probably thought it was a prudent decision compared to *bankrupcy and disbandment*.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:40 am 
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It's worth remembering that the Toughs, as military contractors, routinely do personally hazardous things for pay.
How is flying with a recently senile, (not crazy), AI copy any different from walking into a firefight with only as much armor as you had with you, and your personal weapon?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:08 pm 
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Sean wrote:
It's worth remembering that the Toughs, as military contractors, routinely do personally hazardous things for pay.
How is flying with a recently senile, (not crazy), AI copy any different from walking into a firefight with only as much armor as you had with you, and your personal weapon?

It isn't and the later ends with three to the chest and humiliating lessons learned (if you're lucky).


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