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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:18 pm 
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Really, the easiest solution would've been to eliminate the threat directly.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:32 pm 
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I assume the implication is that the All-star couldn't win the conventional war.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:45 pm 
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JohnSmith wrote:
I assume the implication is that the All-star couldn't win the conventional war.

Concur. It looks like the anti-immortality folks made some form of self-replicating Berserker. No wonder the "rapture" was unacceptably lossy.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:50 pm 
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Still need to read the Berserker books...


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:53 pm 
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Black Sheep wrote:
JohnSmith wrote:
I assume the implication is that the All-star couldn't win the conventional war.
Concur. It looks like the anti-immortality folks made some form of self-replicating Berserker. No wonder the "rapture" was unacceptably lossy.

Saberhagen's Berserkers were self-replicating too . . . which occasionally had . . . unexpected . . . results.

Saberhagen wrote:
The machine was a vast fortress containing no life.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:36 am 
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Mass uploads (with no time for consent) just ahead of a planet-wide blast wave reminds me very very much of Valuable Humans In Transit.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:44 am 
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So, was the Allstar responsible for one of the extinction events?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:22 am 
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John Dallman wrote:
So, was the Allstar responsible for one of the extinction events?
Is it really extinction if they're still around in virtual form?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:17 am 
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John Dallman wrote:
So, was the Allstar responsible for one of the extinction events?


Responsible in the sense that they did not account for the fact that one of the species they contacted would plan to kill everyone else because of it.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:15 am 
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John Dallman wrote:
So, was the Allstar responsible for one of the extinction events?

No. That isn't how responsibility works. However, it is how a guilty conscience works.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:32 am 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
John Dallman wrote:
So, was the Allstar responsible for one of the extinction events?


Responsible in the sense that they did not account for the fact that one of the species they contacted would plan to kill everyone else because of it.

The allstar's response to this occurrence was to race the other species to kill/"upload" everybody first. It's basically the Trolley Problem. They had the choice of doing nothing and letting the enemy kill everybody, or killing everybody themselves but "better".


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:15 pm 
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sotanaht wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
John Dallman wrote:
So, was the Allstar responsible for one of the extinction events?


Responsible in the sense that they did not account for the fact that one of the species they contacted would plan to kill everyone else because of it.

The allstar's response to this occurrence was to race the other species to kill/"upload" everybody first. It's basically the Trolley Problem. They had the choice of doing nothing and letting the enemy kill everybody, or killing everybody themselves but "better".
We don't know whether their method of uploading usually involves killing people when there is no need for secrecy. Considering they can apparently do it from a distance, there's little reason to think it would. The most likely scenario from my point of view would be they pulled copies from everyone they could before the grey goo or berserkers or whatever could reach them and then basically abandoned the originals to their fate, preserving at least a consciousness, if not the consciousness.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:30 pm 
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StClair wrote:
Mass uploads (with no time for consent) just ahead of a planet-wide blast wave reminds me very very much of Valuable Humans In Transit.


I liked it. Thanks for linking.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:31 pm 
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M[i]ech wrote:
StClair wrote:
Mass uploads (with no time for consent) just ahead of a planet-wide blast wave reminds me very very much of Valuable Humans In Transit.


I liked it. Thanks for linking.

yeah it was a good read. The ending is a little scary though.
sotanaht wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
John Dallman wrote:
So, was the Allstar responsible for one of the extinction events?


Responsible in the sense that they did not account for the fact that one of the species they contacted would plan to kill everyone else because of it.

The allstar's response to this occurrence was to race the other species to kill/"upload" everybody first. It's basically the Trolley Problem. They had the choice of doing nothing and letting the enemy kill everybody, or killing everybody themselves but "better".

But we don't know if they had the third option of firing a bazooka at the trolley.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:04 pm 
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Reaver225 wrote:
John Dallman wrote:
So, was the Allstar responsible for one of the extinction events?
Is it really extinction if they're still around in virtual form?

If people (like Petey) studying extinction events don't realise people were uploaded, they won't distinguish it from other extinctions.

Hum ... there may, of course, be more than one upload civilisation. The galaxy is so vast that only one seems quite unlikely.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:15 pm 
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"Why do you resist us? We only want to improve quality of life. For all species"

Oh yeah
The good guys, are reeeaallly good

Just like the Borg
:roll:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:27 pm 
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kham wrote:
"Why do you resist us? We only want to improve quality of life. For all species"

Oh yeah
The good guys, are reeeaallly good

Just like the Borg
:roll:
Well, if the borg offered assimilation without a downside first, and then only started forcibly assimilating people and teleporting them out moments before the klingons nuked their cities, then I bet people would have seen the borg in a much less negative light.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:49 pm 
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Reaver225 wrote:
kham wrote:
"Why do you resist us? We only want to improve quality of life. For all species"

Oh yeah
The good guys, are reeeaallly good

Just like the Borg
:roll:
Well, if the borg offered assimilation without a downside first, and then only started forcibly assimilating people and teleporting them out moments before the klingons nuked their cities, then I bet people would have seen the borg in a much less negative light.


Yeah, nowhere does it say that they forcibly download anyone who didn't want it. They only time they even did it without asking was when they downloaded people who were going to die anyway. And if those people really didn't want to continue as digital consciousness they could always delete themselves afterwards.

And then on top of that rather than try and fight the rest of the people who didn't need saving they faked their own deaths. They might not be at the Petey level of ending a multi fleet engagement with zero casualties, but they're pretty well up there.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:42 pm 
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What I want to know is HOW they managed to hide. A stellar enclosure is an incredibly, incredibly conspicuous thing: It has all the power output of a star, so it's just as visible as a star, but it stands out as a sore thumb because it radiates all of that energy as infrared. Within about 100K years of construction, absolutely everyone in the galaxy who's looking will notice you're there. You just stand out in the galactic sky as a great big "WTF IS THAT?!?".


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:58 pm 
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Fishman wrote:
A stellar enclosure is an incredibly, incredibly conspicuous thing: It has all the power output of a star, so it's just as visible as a star, but it stands out as a sore thumb because it radiates all of that energy as infrared.

...I don't recall being informed that that was the case with these constructions. Why should we assume it?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:02 pm 
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Fishman wrote:
What I want to know is HOW they managed to hide. A stellar enclosure is an incredibly, incredibly conspicuous thing: It has all the power output of a star, so it's just as visible as a star, but it stands out as a sore thumb because it radiates all of that energy as infrared. Within about 100K years of construction, absolutely everyone in the galaxy who's looking will notice you're there. You just stand out in the galactic sky as a great big "WTF IS THAT?!?".

/meditatively/ Thaat dependsss . . .

If your outer shell is bright enough, into the low visible spectrum, then you look like a red giant . . .

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:17 pm 
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A relatively easy way to do partial stealth in space is to simply beam the heat at a far off target to reradiate elsewhere in exactly the same manner. Or possibly shoot it outside the galactic plane.

With gravitic lensing it is really not a big deal to contain the heat and send it in one direction, except for the recoil which you probably can deal with.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:52 am 
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and if the installation is mobile (teraport), then it doesn't matter how much IR it puts out.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:46 am 
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stonefish wrote:
and if the installation is mobile (teraport), then it doesn't matter how much IR it puts out.


Teraporting osiri almost broke the core generator, which is said to be outputting billions of stars worth of energy the Allstar is many tines more massive than Osiri which is just 1.2x Earth's mass

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:03 am 
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GameFreak4321 wrote:
stonefish wrote:
and if the installation is mobile (teraport), then it doesn't matter how much IR it puts out.


Teraporting osiri almost broke the core generator, which is said to be outputting billions of stars worth of energy the Allstar is many tines more massive than Osiri which is just 1.2x Earth's mass


Osiris was not TERAported. It was TELEported. Petey is able to open a wormhole big enough to send things through in one chunk, which takes a massive amount of energy proportional to the size of the thing and completely overpowers TAD. I don't believe teraporting a star+enclosure would be difficult at all, though there may be some kind of complication with the information density.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:29 am 
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sotanaht wrote:
Osiris was not TERAported. It was TELEported.

[citation needed]


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:52 am 
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evileeyore wrote:
sotanaht wrote:
Osiris was not TERAported. It was TELEported.

[citation needed]

Yeah I'm pretty sure it was teraported. All the energy was needed because the original lossy teraport (mass to energy) is not recommended for an artifact with information encoded to the molecular level.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:06 am 
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grahamf wrote:
evileeyore wrote:
sotanaht wrote:
Osiris was not TERAported. It was TELEported.

[citation needed]

Yeah I'm pretty sure it was teraported. All the energy was needed because the original lossy teraport (mass to energy) is not recommended for an artifact with information encoded to the molecular level.


He stole Osiri from a warzone with nine-hundred-and-thirty-six thousand active combatants. You can guarantee they had TADs in place, and we know how he defeats TAD (not looking that up).

Looking back, it probably would have made a lot more sense to teleport out all of the combatants and then teraport Osiri, but we can infer from this page that they were still there, else he wouldn't have anyone to be talking to.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:43 pm 
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sotanaht wrote:
Looking back, it probably would have made a lot more sense to teleport out all of the combatants and then teraport Osiri...

Again, [citation needed] on that "teleport" bit.

There is no evidence to support any theory that such technology exist. This is Epileptic Tree territory.

Quote:
You can guarantee they had TADs in place, and we know how he defeats TAD (not looking that up).

Yes, he uses more power than they can generate, not "he uses tech that has never been discussed or described in comic".


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:05 pm 
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Fishman wrote:
What I want to know is HOW they managed to hide. A stellar enclosure is an incredibly, incredibly conspicuous thing: It has all the power output of a star, so it's just as visible as a star, but it stands out as a sore thumb because it radiates all of that energy as infrared. Within about 100K years of construction, absolutely everyone in the galaxy who's looking will notice you're there. You just stand out in the galactic sky as a great big "WTF IS THAT?!?".


Several methods come to mind, the IR signature can be masked by a sufficient dust/gas cloud, especially a bright nebula with other stars illuminating it. This runs into the problem that bright nebulas are "short lived" as astronomical objects go, but that might be solvable to a sufficiently advanced tech.

Or put it near the core or in a globular cluster. It will be invisible against that background till you're almost on top of it.

The "star" in question is a red dwarf, your IR signature is actually smaller than many red giants and ALSO quite possibly smaller than something like Jupiter during its coalescence.

Basically, you can't hide an IR source except by pretending to be a different IR source, but the Allstar, because it's red-dwarf levels of energy, isn't actually all that bright. There's no reason anyone should look all that closely at it. Our Sun radiates a lot of IR, but we don't think of it as a big IR source because it's got so much more energy coming out in the visible band, but the sun actually puts out much much more IR than the entire energy output of a typical red dwarf.

TLDR summary: It's not actually all that bright.


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