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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:01 pm 
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Arctic Exhibit
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For some reason, it seems that everyone trusts Putzho more than you would expect. He gave a infodump to all the AIs present during his first conversation with the Toughs, so they have reason to trust him, and the rest of the Toughs probably trust him because the AIs are alright with him. But back on the station, Tagon and Co are still jammed, so they have no idea who Putzho is.

One would imagine that if a giant something puts a hole in the ceiling in the middle of a active combat zone and activates a teraport cage, Tagon's first instinct would be to get to cover. Instead, they walk up to it and stare down the hole. When the giant clawed something drags its way out of the hole 2 feet away, they all just sit there and gaze at it like idiots.

I mean, sure, at that point Putzho starts talking to them and he doesn't seem immediately hostile. But they still have basically no reason whatsoever to trust him, and many reasons to assume that he's there to kill them. If Putzho's landing craft had actually been a giant combat mech subverted by All-Star, it could've grabbed and killed all of them.

I feel like a lot of people just picked up a idiot ball, or they picked up a fourth wall crystal ball and saw that Putzho was actually friendly. That, or Putzho is pulling a Petey and calculating how to act to ensure that everyone assumes he's friendly, but even Petey could only take that so far, and I don't there there's a 'friendly' way to crash through the roof at ballistic speeds.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:19 pm 
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buggy wrote:
For some reason, it seems that everyone trusts Putzho...

You have no evidence that they do. Merely not engaging in a firefight does not equate to trust.

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One would imagine that if a giant something puts a hole in the ceiling in the middle of a active combat zone and activates a teraport cage, Tagon's first instinct would be to get to cover.

I didn't imagine that. My first instinct would be to gather intel. Which they did. It's called 'recon in force', look it up.

And what cover? The object just holed the loading bay, twice. There is literally nothing in the bay that would act as cover.

And once they saw it was a teraport cage and something was deploying they could presume quite easily it wasn't a part of the forces they were just fighting. It's pretty damn obvious since it had to deploy from outside the field of battle.

Sure, it could be a new challenger, but that meant it got past Cindy. And if that happened may as well stroll up all casual like and take a look.

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I mean, sure, at that point Putzho starts talking to them and he doesn't seem immediately hostile.

So... they should what? Be immediately resorting to violence? Talk about picking up the idiot ball...

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...I don't there there's a 'friendly' way to crash through the roof at ballistic speeds.

Maybe not, but Kaff makes it look good.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:15 am 
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Arctic Exhibit
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evileeyore wrote:
You have no evidence that they do. Merely not engaging in a firefight does not equate to trust.

I'm using "trust" loosely. Trust as in "not considered a immediate threat".

evileeyore wrote:
I didn't imagine that. My first instinct would be to gather intel. Which they did. It's called 'recon in force', look it up.


Fair enough, I suppose.

evileeyore wrote:
And what cover? The object just holed the loading bay, twice. There is literally nothing in the bay that would act as cover.

Cover can absolutely be useful against large threats, Murtaugh took cover from Cindercone when she was first subverted. Granted Cindercone was largely equipped with nonlethals at that point, but Murtaugh assumed that Cindy was shooting to kill if at all possible. And the unknown something was much smaller than a fully armed gunship.

evileeyore wrote:
as deploying they could presume quite easily it wasn't a part of the forces they were just fighting. It's pretty damn obvious since it had to deploy from outside the field of battle.
It's entirely possible that All-Star had other subverted assets off-station, and the TAD field forced them to get a little creative.

evileeyore wrote:
Sure, it could be a new challenger, but that meant it got past Cindy. And if that happened may as well stroll up all casual like and take a look.
There could be any number of other explanations: Cindy could have been subverted, it could have been a specialized something equipped with PD or some other manner of technology that let it slip past, or it could have simply exploited the layout of the battlefield and flown through a area where Cindy didn't have good VDA coverage.


evileeyore wrote:
So... they should what? Be immediately resorting to violence? Talk about picking up the idiot ball...
There is a thick, thick line between "shoot at it immediately" and "let the ludicrously good hackers shove a claw with a hacky-light in our faces." They could, for instance, make a tactical retreat to any distance outside of grabby-claw range.


You don't become a seasoned mercenary by constantly taking unnecessary and excessive risks.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:23 am 
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Well, do you really want a week of comic strips showing Tagon and company retreating behind some shipping containers, which probably wouldn't make good cover since we saw the light mechs shooting through them, and gradually warming up to Putzho. Actually at this point how many of those shipping containers even exist. We haven't seen anything but smoke and flat ground for a while now.

If nothing else Putzho can infodump tailor the same way he did the other AIs.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:05 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
We haven't seen anything but smoke and flat ground for a while now.

There is that one lampost/hoist looking thing and some debris from (presumably) a light walkermech.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:40 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
Well, do you really want a week of comic strips showing Tagon and company retreating behind some shipping containers, which probably wouldn't make good cover since we saw the light mechs shooting through them, and gradually warming up to Putzho.

Yeah, it might be quicker to have them be more trusting right off the bat, but in the absence of a good explanation I feel like it could've been handled better.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:34 pm 
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BTW, there's a difference between cover and concealment . . . cover stops enemy fire and normally conceals as well, whereas concealment simply hides someone from view.

And both terms are relative to the weapon concerned . . . cover against rifle fire may not be cover against artillery, though usually cover against artillery will also cover against rifle fire.

In this case, shipping containers are probably not cover against the weapons in use.

--FreeFlier


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:45 pm 
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I'd guess it's a close race between gross stupidity and 'ze plotz demandz it!!!!'


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:57 pm 
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kham wrote:
I'd guess it's a close race between gross stupidity and 'ze plotz demandz it!!!!'


I'm really leaning on "they know when they are outgunned" myself. "You can run, but you'll only die tired". All Tagon and could do was hope it was friendly or at least that it would accept surrender.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:10 am 
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Because he's a putz! I mean, it's right *there* in his name. It literally means "A stupid, worthless person".

His name invites one to let their guard down.... you know, for an audience that's supposed to be smart? Y'all can be awfully stupid.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:26 pm 
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How is his name supposed to be pronounced anyway? Which letters form a digraph? Is it 'Putz-ho' or 'Put-zho'?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:04 pm 
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I've been pronouncing it in my head as "PU-tzo".


But then I adore tz sound combinations.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:26 pm 
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For me, tz automatically maps to צ or ц...


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:27 pm 
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buggy wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
Well, do you really want a week of comic strips showing Tagon and company retreating behind some shipping containers, which probably wouldn't make good cover since we saw the light mechs shooting through them, and gradually warming up to Putzho.

Yeah, it might be quicker to have them be more trusting right off the bat, but in the absence of a good explanation I feel like it could've been handled better.


I have yet to see trust, from anybody.

What I've seen is Tagon not shoot somebody who politely asked him to step back, then not shoot a mech that was obviously quite capable of ripping him and his crew apart - which had just politely asked him to step back.

That's not being trusting, that's being sane.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:04 pm 
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0z79 wrote:
Because he's a putz! I mean, it's right *there* in his name. It literally means "A stupid, worthless person". . . .

Actually, in yiddish putz is a vulgarity/obscenity for penis.

The stupid/worthless definition is a secondary definition from that.

--FreeFlier


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:31 am 
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JohnSmith wrote:
buggy wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
Well, do you really want a week of comic strips showing Tagon and company retreating behind some shipping containers, which probably wouldn't make good cover since we saw the light mechs shooting through them, and gradually warming up to Putzho.

Yeah, it might be quicker to have them be more trusting right off the bat, but in the absence of a good explanation I feel like it could've been handled better.


I have yet to see trust, from anybody.

What I've seen is Tagon not shoot somebody who politely asked him to step back, then not shoot a mech that was obviously quite capable of ripping him and his crew apart - which had just politely asked him to step back.

That's not being trusting, that's being sane.

I don't know about you, but I personally hesitate to shoot anything that opens with 'please'. I think I've got plenty of explanation.

Edit: Also, Putzo gave them a link to Breath Weapon. That's a pretty good reason to trust him.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:38 am 
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Here's the thing, the peeps screeching "idiot ball' over this didn't want the Toughs to open fire, they wanted them to run and hide. Behind all that gloriously flattened cover.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:35 pm 
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SOMEBODY though, isn't being an imbecile, based on tonight...


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:02 am 
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Like I tried to say earlier, nobody trusts Putzho except maybe the allstar/allstar agents who have all his data punched into a probability manifold. They are simply cooperating with him mainly because they have no other options. He's trusted about as much as you'd trust a guy with a gun to your head.

As for the 4 page budget dedicated to "I don't trust you", I just have the image in my mind of 4 pages of zeroes with a 1 on the end, a quilllard^4 if you will.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:01 am 
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Now let's ask the other question - why does Putzho trust Allaque, or the agents?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:15 am 
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FrankNorman wrote:
Now let's ask the other question - why does Putzho trust Allaque, or the agents?

He doesn't trust the agents, he put them in stasis bottles. Sure, he went and checked on his probability manifold, but checking on what you have available is generally a good idea. Especially when someone you don't trust brings it up.

He trusts Ulaque because they had a nice, long conversation, in which Ulaque went to great lengths to establish a healthy, respectful relationship.

A better question, at the risk of being recursive, might be why does Ulaque trust Putzho?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:14 am 
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Motortiki wrote:
A better question, at the risk of being recursive, might be why does Ulaque trust Putzho?

Again, my guess is that this is all going according to plan.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:27 am 
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Motortiki wrote:
FrankNorman wrote:
Now let's ask the other question - why does Putzho trust Allaque, or the agents?

He doesn't trust the agents, he put them in stasis bottles. Sure, he went and checked on his probability manifold, but checking on what you have available is generally a good idea. Especially when someone you don't trust brings it up.

He trusts Ulaque because they had a nice, long conversation, in which Ulaque went to great lengths to establish a healthy, respectful relationship.

A better question, at the risk of being recursive, might be why does Ulaque trust Putzho?


Because like the agents Ulaque literally read Putzho's mind, and I'm sure he has his own probability matrix to predict Putzho's actions.


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