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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:17 pm 
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Hello! First posting is a question about politics. :wink:

It is about when Uplifting is allowed. The webcomic show a long list of animals who have been uplifted, mostly "Earthlings", but I was wondering in general if there is any evidence from the stories about the ethics around it? When it is allowed and when is it not allowed?

So far, judging from the Earth, is seems to be that a intelligent race can uplift other animals from their own planet. But I have seen at least one sea-creatures in a "air" suit? http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2014-07-13 Though that could be the order Sepiida who was uplifted. It could also have been a intelligent alien sea-creature whose race was given technology who help them get off a ocean world (as it is hard to make fire, produce metals, and create an industry under the sea).

So I guess I am wondering about the ethics and/or legal issues in this universe of both genetic uplifting non-intelligent creatures AND giving advanced tech to intelligent races who have "handicaps".

AND if there is any evidence of "downshifting" - the idea of making a intelligent race NON-intelligent for "reasons".

Thank you! :D


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:43 pm 
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Eurasia wrote:
Hello! First posting is a question about politics. :wink:

It is about when Uplifting is allowed. The webcomic show a long list of animals who have been uplifted, mostly "Earthlings", but I was wondering in general if there is any evidence from the stories about the ethics around it? When it is allowed and when is it not allowed?

So far, judging from the Earth, is seems to be that a intelligent race can uplift other animals from their own planet. But I have seen at least one sea-creatures in a "air" suit? http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2014-07-13 Though that could be the order Sepiida who was uplifted. It could also have been a intelligent alien sea-creature whose race was given technology who help them get off a ocean world (as it is hard to make fire, produce metals, and create an industry under the sea).

So I guess I am wondering about the ethics and/or legal issues in this universe of both genetic uplifting non-intelligent creatures AND giving advanced tech to intelligent races who have "handicaps".

AND if there is any evidence of "downshifting" - the idea of making a intelligent race NON-intelligent for "reasons".

Thank you! :D

To the best of my knowledge, we've never seen evidence of "downshifting" from an external species. The only example I can point to of functional downshifting is the Bradicor, but as far as we can see from the comics, they did that to themselves.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:46 pm 
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Black Sheep wrote:
To the best of my knowledge, we've never seen evidence of "downshifting" from an external species. The only example I can point to of functional downshifting is the Bradicor, but as far as we can see from the comics, they did that to themselves.

The Zoojack residents were technologically downshifted. Whether anything else was done tot hem, or if that would even count, eh.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:07 pm 
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There certainly don't seem to be any ethical or legal restrictions on uplifting a species. In addition to the genetic uplifting humanity has certainly done, and continues to work on see the neophants, Kevyn tried to uplift that race on the uncharted world the Toughs fled to. And in doing so mentioned that at least one other race had uplifted someone else from the iron age during the Wormgate era.

Downgrading a race has probably been done a few times, but we've seen no evidence of it. Probably if one race beats another in war they can do pretty much anything the rest of galactic society is willing to accept, or that they can hide. And removing a race's access to technology is certainly going to be viewed more positively than outright killing them. On the other hand genetically removing their sapience would be incredibly difficult. And in the end you've effectively killed that race and are left with a pretty useless species. Why bother going to the trouble?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:14 pm 
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"Downlifting" voluntary or otherwise would seem to be a defense mechanism against the DaMEs. Not rereading the whole thing but isn't that exactly what went on in that zoojack story?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:07 pm 
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sotanaht wrote:
"Downlifting" voluntary or otherwise would seem to be a defense mechanism against the DaMEs. Not rereading the whole thing but isn't that exactly what went on in that zoojack story?

That accounts for dropping neutronium-based annie plants and PTUs. Not sure it covers all the way down to becoming hunter-gatherers.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:35 pm 
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Well presumably you don't want them teching back up to the point where they start messing with the zoojack. Which pretty much precludes everything after the stone age since there are no metals without digging into the zoojack's structure.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:50 pm 
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This is likely the single most retarded plot hook / device in the strip I can recall
Plus, God o wind, farts and flushes? PISS the HELL off. THIS is why you just want to kill every wiseass AI in existence


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:12 pm 
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kham wrote:
This is likely the single most retarded plot hook / device in the strip I can recall
Plus, God o wind, farts and flushes? PISS the HELL off. THIS is why you just want to kill every wiseass AI in existence


I know you like to comment on every comic you can. But this isn't a thread about the current strip. Make a new thread if you want to discuss that. I'd rather not see a fairly interesting topic get derailed.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:54 pm 
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I find the kreelies especially problematic with regards to thos question.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:23 am 
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Chainlynx wrote:
I find the kreelies especially problematic with regards to thos question.

Sure, sure, it's better to eat the smart ones who can at least appreciate the that they are being raised as food... as long they still taste as good.


;)


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:57 am 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
... Kevyn tried to uplift that race on the uncharted world the Toughs fled to.

Uplifting usually seems to refer to modifying their genetics to make them more intelligent - that's certainly been done to Earth elephants and dolphins in the strip. Kevyn wasn't trying to change that species' biology, since they were already thoroughly intelligent. The robot he built for them was simply intended to teach them the technological expertise they lacked.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:26 am 
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John Dallman wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
... Kevyn tried to uplift that race on the uncharted world the Toughs fled to.

Uplifting usually seems to refer to modifying their genetics to make them more intelligent - that's certainly been done to Earth elephants and dolphins in the strip. Kevyn wasn't trying to change that species' biology, since they were already thoroughly intelligent. The robot he built for them was simply intended to teach them the technological expertise they lacked.

Yeah what Kevin did is more properly considered 'helping them get a leg up'.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:51 am 
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Was the cloned giant squid that Der Triths retired over uplifted, or was it just that smart? I know Petey used it quite efficiently as an ambassador.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:52 am 
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John Dallman wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
... Kevyn tried to uplift that race on the uncharted world the Toughs fled to.

Uplifting usually seems to refer to modifying their genetics to make them more intelligent - that's certainly been done to Earth elephants and dolphins in the strip. Kevyn wasn't trying to change that species' biology, since they were already thoroughly intelligent. The robot he built for them was simply intended to teach them the technological expertise they lacked.


I've seen it used both to refer to uplifting a species a sapience and uplifting a species technologically, usually to FTL. The reverend specifically referred to them as uplift protocols when he brought up the idea with Tagon. In fact I would assume that any genetic uplifting would also require some technological uplifting to get them used to your level of civilization.

The reverend's reference is here.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:33 am 
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Planet Mercenary reveals that the Commslugs were actually uplifted by the Gzeaul - unfortunately, only the mental part really worked and they never got around to the physical stuff, which pretty much limited them to their hover chairs.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:01 pm 
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Cifer wrote:
Planet Mercenary reveals that the Commslugs were actually uplifted by the Gzeaul - unfortunately, only the mental part really worked and they never got around to the physical stuff, which pretty much limited them to their hover chairs.

In the end, their evolution took the path they themselves decided it would. I'm sure they could have solved the physical thing eventually if they'd worked at it.


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