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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:19 pm 
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I wonder if that is why Tagii went batshit crazy? If the hooks go deeper (which may be necessary in more advanced AIs) then Tagii might have a hard coded compulsion to keep Para happy, something that interfered with sensory deprivation procedures.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:21 pm 
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Quote:
Nice presumption

Well, yeah. But nothing in any of the Sosheki's behaviour, or the descriptions we've had of them, point to sapience.

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That is literally the difference between animals and people.

Tell me when parrots and crows get a seat at the UN.

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The key words here are "memories"
It really isn't. For example, I have fond memories of my last vacation. They certainly do not go back to the beginning of my mental history.

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blink blink
Blink away. Once the damage is done, is it better to go digging in somebody's head again, if the old damage can and will fade?

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for me to take you as a servant
Projecting, not based on Para's behaviour. The only robots she has "kept" was the Tarbot, which as I've pointed out we know nothing about, and the Sosheki, which definitely seemed like a pet even to the Espies. Certainly she did not "Keep" Bristlecone, which is the obvious thing to do if you're collecting overpowered robots. Or, you know LOTA, the Long Gunner who can end galactic civilization.

Finally, the dockbots. We still have no idea what formed her reputation, but she certainly has one. Now, maybe she's the Robot Devil, but given her name is Ventura, and there's the HV intelligence scale... I suspect there is a relationship there, anyway.

Quote:
I wonder if that is why Tagii went batshit crazy? If the hooks go deeper (which may be necessary in more advanced AIs) then Tagii might have a hard coded compulsion to keep Para happy, something that interfered with sensory deprivation procedures.
She tried to rip Para's everything off, so... no. I don't think so. Conservation of narrative detail here, the discussion between Thurl, Para and Kevyn was probably correct.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:02 pm 
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I would also point out that Tagon Jr. also had a reputation with a different group of dockbots. And he acquired that reputation in a pretty short timeframe. Someone who worked with them for a while could easily do the same, though admittedly Para's version probably involved threats of reprogramming instead of a gun.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:04 pm 
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JohnSmith wrote:
Well, yeah. But nothing in any of the Sosheki's behaviour, or the descriptions we've had of them, point to sapience.

Thankfully possessing wisdom isn't a requirement for person hood. Otherwise Kaff and Schlock might be right out...

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Tell me when parrots and crows get a seat at the UN.

Let me know when they have actual language.

Quote:
It really isn't. For example, I have fond memories of my last vacation. They certainly do not go back to the beginning of my mental history.

No, but I'm betting it's certainly more than one of them. And for it to be strong enough to override your current loyalties, those memories inspiring love would probably need to be go back a bit.

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Blink away. Once the damage is done, is it better to go digging in somebody's head again, if the old damage can and will fade?

Rather than it keep doing damage? Yes it certainly is.

Or rather, if I discovered my memories were false and they could be repaired, I would definitely want them fixed. I have doubts there are any people that would choose otherwise, Nick not-withstanding.

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Projecting, not based on Para's behaviour.

I don't need to keep you as a servant for long. Just say, long enough to free myself and friends from your employers and those you were previously loyal to.

That you'll willingly follow me for a time afterwards is simply the icing on the enslavement cake.

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The only robots she has "kept" was the Tarbot, which as I've pointed out we know nothing about, and the Sosheki, which definitely seemed like a pet even to the Espies.

Many slave owners considered their black slaves to be pets as well. Didn't make them not people.

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Finally, the dockbots. We still have no idea what formed her reputation, but she certainly has one. Now, maybe she's the Robot Devil, but given her name is Ventura, and there's the HV intelligence scale... I suspect there is a relationship there, anyway.

No other robots have reacted that way towards her. Thus, it's suspicious.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:24 pm 
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evileeyore wrote:
Quote:
Finally, the dockbots. We still have no idea what formed her reputation, but she certainly has one. Now, maybe she's the Robot Devil, but given her name is Ventura, and there's the HV intelligence scale... I suspect there is a relationship there, anyway.

No other robots have reacted that way towards her. Thus, it's suspicious.


Okay, I can see where you're coming from for most of your points. But really pointing out that one group of people she worked with for a long time react differently to her than people she just met. Yes, of course they will. That doesn't mean she hacked them it just means they know her. As I pointed out before Tagon also garnered this response with one set of dockbots, but future dockbots obviously didn't have the same experience and reactions.

I mean yes, it's entirely possible that Para reprogrammed them. In fact that is likely given that it was probably her job as a roboticist in the shipyard to get them working more efficiently. But just them reacting to her differently is not in itself evidence of anything more than prior experiences.

In fact given that her usual operation is to make AIs love her. Why would this group of bots fear her if she had been messing around in their memories.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:25 pm 
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[quote="JohnSmith]
Quote:
I wonder if that is why Tagii went batshit crazy? If the hooks go deeper (which may be necessary in more advanced AIs) then Tagii might have a hard coded compulsion to keep Para happy, something that interfered with sensory deprivation procedures.
She tried to rip Para's everything off, so... no. I don't think so. Conservation of narrative detail here, the discussion between Thurl, Para and Kevyn was probably correct.[/quote]
Again, she was batshit crazy. She could've been spending all that time trying to remove her overrides. Like reverse Stockholm Syndrome or some other Yandre shit. She immediately disable Thurl because he tore her away from para (and likely had a plan B of Tagii went online again, and then she intended to torture para for making every moment away from her agonizing. Tagii is smart, she likely knew that she loved Para because she was programmed to and that it was wrong. That paradox along could be agonizing, and couldn't be ignored while she was in isolation.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:59 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
Okay, I can see where you're coming from for most of your points. But really pointing out that one group of people she worked with for a long time...

A long time? She'd just signed of the 'Kweng... here let me get that strip...

...

... and it looks like the drydock bots were in fact from the 'Kweng. Okay, you win this one.

Quote:
In fact given that her usual operation is to make AIs love her. Why would this group of bots fear her if she had been messing around in their memories.

I found it suspect because it played perfectly into what she needed at that moment. Fear and respect, which is something Kaff respects.

That she was later revealed to be a spy only reinforced my suspicions.

Also she'd known Ennesby mere seconds and had already begun trying to get him under her knife ("You need lips!"), and I've never believed her when she claimed to not have messed with his loyalties.

Once a liar, always a liar.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:27 am 
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evileeyore wrote:
The key words here are "memories" in the plural, "grossly over-simplified" which means "not an accurate description", and "forced a restore" which means "killed 'em and rezzed 'em".

The last ins't a sticking point for me, but some of you have gotten hung up on the "not the same person" nonsense the strip has been peddling, so y'all's mileage may vary on that point.


It's worthwhile to note that the robots seem to regard getting restored from backup as nothing more than a very annoying inconvenience - http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2005-11-14


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:52 am 
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If we are feeling empathy for enthralled tarbots... let us not forget the one in the last panel here.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:24 am 
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Barmaglot wrote:
It's worthwhile to note that the robots seem to regard getting restored from backup as nothing more than a very annoying inconvenience - http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2005-11-14

Yes, for the most part synthetic sophonts don't seem to have the same hang-ups about death and resurrection as meat sophonts.

I was making an emotional argument to sway meat sophonts to my side of the debate.



Aratan wrote:
If we are feeling empathy for enthralled tarbots... let us not forget the one in the last panel here.

Agreed. But since he was granted his freedom, hopefully this is a job that he's chosen to do and is properly remunerated for.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:06 pm 
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Well, EE is pretty dead set on interpreting everything about Para in the worst possible light. And I mean sure, it's possible that's the truth of the matter, but it's far from certain.

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I was making an emotional argument to sway meat sophonts to my side of the debate.

Also known as "My logical argument doesn't really hold up."

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Again, she was batshit crazy.

What, she was unable to change herself enough to ignore ten minutes of sensory deprivation, but able to remove what you claim is a major compulsion? Fat chance.

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Thankfully possessing wisdom isn't a requirement for person hood.
Thankfully that doesn't counter my argument, at all.
They ain't great at syntax, but they can learn words. Oh look, silksilver ain't so great at synatx, either, despite being bred/designed to communicate. And at the far end of the spectrum, Siri is great at synatx.

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She rewrote their memories so they had always loved her.

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The key words here are "memories" in the plural

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No, but I'm betting it's certainly more than one of them.


Better get a rope, EE. Your argument is drifting out to sea.
No time frame specified. I agree that the 'love' must be pretty strong, but that says nothing about when/how the memory was installed.

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Or rather, if I discovered my memories were false and they could be repaired, I would definitely want them fixed.

By the same person who did the damage in the first place? "Once a lier, right?" Seems inconsistent of you.

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I don't need to keep you as a servant for long. Just say, long enough to free myself and friends from your employers and those you were previously loyal to.
Okay, yeah. The point of compromising them was to avoid capture. If you want describe it as "servant" then sure, but I will point out again that the alternatives are mostly "They all die."

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Many...
Oh put a damn sock in that. NOTHING has pointed to the Sosheki being actually sapient. Keep it for when the comic actually presents something that leans that way, okay?

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No other robots have reacted that way towards her. Thus, it's suspicious.
No other robots we've met knew who the hell she was, or were in a position of extreme power over her (AKA Petey). Whatever reputation "Para Ventura" has, no other AI introduced has had reason to react to it.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:34 pm 
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Someone who doesn't mention who he or she is quoting claimed that I said TAGii was able to remove her compulsion to love Para. I never said that she removed it, just that she was smart enough to know it was there and while sensory deprived was forced to find a way to corrupt it. Is she spent the equivalent of millennia dealing with it, finding a way to turn love into hate (or override love with hate) is fairly trivial - we as humans do it on occasion ourselves. If PDCL could be permanently compelled to calculate the probability of air in the plumbing sounding like demonic voices to the point that he would kill everyone on board and self destruct the moment he had the chance - only for a single standing order of "not thinking about it" to keep him sane, then TAGii can find a way to kill the girl she is compelled to love.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:52 pm 
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I'm inclined to read it as Tagii being gone past the compulsions, rather than subverting them; based on Para's statements after Tagii was released, she'd evolved past essentially everything she was and was utterly unrecognizable as Tagii, including the hardwired compulsions against hurting the crew. That doesn't sound like "the behavioural limits have been twisted and reinterpreted to allow new behaviour", it sounds like "the behavioural limits are no longer relevant to the mind that has evolved here, or have disappeared entirely".

That's probably nitpicking though.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:44 pm 
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JohnSmith wrote:
Well, EE is pretty dead set on interpreting everything about Para in the worst possible light.

That is false.

Also, start attributing your quotes or I'll start ignoring you. It's bloody annoying to have to search the thread over to figure out who you are responding to to find the context to which they were originally speaking.

Quote:
Also known as "My logical argument doesn't really hold up."

Now who is interpreting things in the worst possible light?

No, it means exactly what I said: I don't hold this opinion, but others might, so I used it as an emotional lure to possibly sway some people. Is it a non-logical argument. Yes. Because on some people those work better.

Quote:
Quote:
Thankfully possessing wisdom isn't a requirement for person hood.
Thankfully that doesn't counter my argument, at all.

Actually it does. You keep using the term "sapient", which does not mean what you apparently think it means. It means "wise" or "possessing wisdom" or "relating to the human species".

It does not mean (as so many sci-fi authors have tried to mangle it into) "possessing human like intelligence". The word I suspect you are grasping for and failing to use is 'sophont'.

It also does not mean "has language". Why else did you chose that video to counter that argument I made? talk about losing the plot...

Quote:
They ain't great at syntax, but they can learn words. Oh look, silksilver ain't so great at synatx, either, despite being bred/designed to communicate.

Yes, it's possible humans been eating and keeping other sophonts as pets. This does not invalidate the argument that Para is a hypocritical slaver.

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And at the far end of the spectrum, Siri is great at synatx.

Boy, it's a good thing I never made the claim that language was the only metric for determining person hood.

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Better get a rope, EE. Your argument is drifting out to sea.

Not a bit. The first was an error, the second was countering your use of the singular 'memory' (and thus showing that your 'exact quote' was false), and the last is a reinforcement of that counter.

Quote:
No time frame specified. I agree that the 'love' must be pretty strong, but that says nothing about when/how the memory was installed.

The memory was installed when they were hacked. If you mean how far back the memories go, it would need to be pretty far back to counter centuries of loyalty Bristlecone had for Sanctum Adroit.

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By the same person who did the damage in the first place?

Hell no. By someone else. Or, if the only person who could fix them were the original villain, then with someone else riding shotgun. As in a literal shotgun pressed against the base of Para's skull in case she decided to futz around with my loyalty settings more.

However, as this was in discussion of what Para should have done, then yes. While still under her sway she should have convinced them to allow her to do the work and then repaired their memories herself.

It's what a moral person would have done.

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Okay, yeah. The point of compromising them was to avoid capture. If you want describe it as "servant" then sure, but I will point out again that the alternatives are mostly "They all die."

Sure, and it's better than dying or having to kill them.

But then releasing them is better than keeping them as 'love' slaves. I'm not arguing that Para is Literally Hitler. I'm arguing that she's a hypocritical slaver.

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NOTHING has pointed to the Sosheki being actually sapient.

They posses language, they can learn, they can adapt to their environment, they can apply learned skills and experiences to their current situation.

They are [url]sentient[/url]*, the are likely sapient, and most importantly they are sophonts.
Silksilver is a captured enemy that has been kept in emotional bondage.

Does she prefer it over her old life? Probably, as Para seems to treat her as more than just a war mount (of course she may have been programmed to enjoy being a war mount). Again, Para can occasionaly treat her slaves with great decency and care without at all respecting their individual agency or rights. Apparently it's legal in the Schlockverse.


* That's the only time we see a Sosheki using 'CATLOL' speak, or in other words, your only evidence that they don't have a better grasp of language. Her syntax as of 4 days ago was perfectly fine. Short on words, but fine, no CATLOL speak at all.



And further more as to whether or not TARpaulin wanted to be in the crate or not?
The answer is no.

Anyone still think the Mistress of Chrome treats her slaves all that decently?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:05 am 
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EE wrote:
Also, start attributing your quotes or I'll start ignoring you.

Eh, sorry. I manually add the tags, and trying to spell everybody's names is a right pain in the arse. I just started to assume people would recognize their own arguments and respond appropriately.

EE wrote:
Is it a non-logical argument. Yes. Because on some people those work better.

I cordially invite those who value rhetoric over logic or fact to go to hell. Please refrain from intentionally making nonsense arguments.

EE wrote:
It does not mean (as so many sci-fi authors have tried to mangle it into) "possessing human like intelligence". The word I suspect you are grasping for and failing to use is 'sophont'.

So instead of using a word well understood to mean "Intelligent like a human is intelligent," and literally meaning "having or showing great wisdom or sound judgment," you would like me to use a word somewhat well understood to mean "Intelligent like a human is intelligent" and literally meaning "being, existing, or essence." Which was invented by Poul Anderson and his wife, and first encountered by ME in Schlock Mercenary. Whatever floats your boat, EE.

The term you MAY be thinking of is Sentient. Sentient is NOT "Intelligent like a human is intelligent," but has often been abused by SF writers to mean that.

EE wrote:
It also does not mean "has language". Why else did you chose that video to counter that argument I made? talk about losing the plot...

Thanks for agreeing with my argument? Speech != human level intelligence, or even self-awareness. That was my point.

EE wrote:
Yes, it's possible humans been eating and keeping other sophonts as pets. This does not invalidate the argument that Para is a hypocritical slaver.
Sure, but if you've reset the goalposts so far as to say "All humans are hypocritical slavers" a valid statement as well, there's really nothing more to talk about.

EE wrote:
The first was an error, the second was countering your use of the singular 'memory' (and thus showing that your 'exact quote' was false), and the last is a reinforcement of that counter.
You realize "memory" and "memories" are just grammatical oddities, and not actual discrete quantities, right? Every "Memory" is uncountable "memories." The plural is completely irrelevant. I did screw up the quote though, that's true.

EE wrote:
If you mean how far back the memories go, it would need to be pretty far back to counter centuries of loyalty Bristlecone had for Sanctum Adroit.
Pray tell, why? Does the love of a childhood pet outweigh a person's love for their more recent significant other? WHEN isn't the deciding factor.

Again, the point I'm making is that how far back the memories go doesn't really matter. I have no idea why you're committed to that.

EE wrote:
Hell no. By someone else.

There you go then.
EE wrote:
While still under her sway she should have convinced them to allow her to do the work and then repaired their memories herself.

Even if the damage is self-fixing? I mean, like you said Cindy doesn't seem particularly committed to her anymore.

EE wrote:
keeping them as 'love' slaves.

Only two she's "kept" are one that cannot really be released (How do you treat a captured 100 ton war machine with the brain of a dog or horse?) and a Tarbot who's motives are unexplored. Maybe she's abusive and wanted a bodyguard, or maybe TARNATION wanted her to have a bodyguard and keeping him hidden seemed like a good idea. We don't know.
EE wrote:
And further more as to whether or not TARpaulin wanted to be in the crate or not?
We know he didn't WANT to be in a crate. The question is, WHY was he in the crate? I think it's even to better-than-even odds that was the deal - bodyguard sticks around, but has to stay hidden.

EE wrote:
They posses language, they can learn, they can adapt to their environment, they can apply learned skills and experiences to their current situation.
Sponges can do most of that except speak, and as we've discussed, speech does not a Sapient make. More to the point, crows can do ALL those things, and we don't consider keeping a crow slavery. Unless you do, and we're all slavers... I think we covered that above, don't you?


I've never said that Para cannot be a slaver. I've been pointing out that she isn't necessarily a slaver, given what we've seen.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:32 pm 
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evileeyore wrote:
Cifer wrote:
Er, no, it's really not. The Sosheki language sounds pretty much like what dogs would presumably be speaking if you translated it from dog-ish to English.

Nice presumption, don't make it fact. I don't presume to know how an animal might communicate if we were to uplift to the point of having a common language.

I do know I've heard autistic/retarded adults speak and act in a similar fashion... Is it okay to monkey around with their memories to enslave them via synthetic "love"?


starstriker1 wrote:
A common theme in sci-fi that I believe has been hinted at in some of the footnotes as well is that AIs are substantially differently implemented than meat-brains, and that human-like personalities and behaviour are at least in part an affectation layered over a more alien thought process in order to make them more comfortable to and easier to interact with by the people who have to interact with them. Depending on how that's formulated in the Schlock universe that is actually a complicating factor. It's undercut by the human-like depiction of many of the AI characters, but like every character in a fantasy novel speaking English that could be spun as an "interpretation" of events to fit the format and audience; namely, a bunch of humans expecting a punchline at the end of every strip.

Just because someone has an alien way of thinking does make slavery of them legal (not that you are suggesting such).

In this case however, the AI's behavior is predictable and relatable enough that I suspect they think much like humans, mere;y faster (and with far better memory retention).

Quote:
I'm not sure how much I buy that, but it's not something to dismiss out of hand. This is why I wish the text explored the controversy and Para's apparent hypocrisy more.

In order to do so the setting wold have accept that her behavior was hypocritical. Enslavement of AIs (or at least treating them as second class citizens with diminished rights) however is appropriate in setting.

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Dunno about that one. She literally told Bristlecone what the modifications were, and AIs have full read/write over their own memories. Assuming she used as light a touch as she claimed, Bristlecone would be able to effortlessly identify and scrub the affected memories (after all, if the memory includes Para before the date of the hack, it's obviously fraudulent) to completely remove any compulsion pushed on her, or at least be able to recontextualize everything. That she still felt Para had done an enormous favour for her regardless might actually represent legitimate gratitude and not a forced affection.

I believe that is why Cindy no longer relies on/dotes on Para as she once did. Her instilled fondness has diminished to that which would have naturally occurred over time rather than the worshipfullness it was at the outset.


Hey, I don't post very often; maybe because I'm "retarded".
I'm revoking your "R-Word" privileges.

Did you ride on the short bus?
No?
....then don't use "retarded" in a sentence, EVER.
If you do, then be prepared to apologize to your bus-mates.

....what's that? You never rode the short bus?
In that case, why the FUCK are you using the "R" word!?

/speaking as a mid-to-high-functioning autistic person


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:19 pm 
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JohnSmith wrote:
Eh, sorry. I manually add the tags, and trying to spell everybody's names is a right pain in the arse. I just started to assume people would recognize their own arguments and respond appropriately.

You don't have to attribute every quote, but when you hop back and forth and only quote a single word? You're offloading a lot of work on your reader.

Just attribute in the first quote from each person and don't swap back forth between people (unless it's a long multiquote mess, then just reattribute every time you switch targets, it's what most of the rest of us do).

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I cordially invite those who value rhetoric over logic or fact to go to hell.

Sure, if all someone is making are emotional arguments... but rhetoric has it's place and to dismiss rhetoric out of hand is dumb.

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Please refrain from intentionally making nonsense arguments.

As far as I', concerned no one has made a nonsense argument yet.

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So instead of using a word well understood to mean "Intelligent like a human is intelligent"...

Outside of a handful of authors sentient has never meant "intelligent like humans". It's always meant possessing wisdom however.

I'll grant it's my bugaboo being a philosopher to have seen the word misused because sci-fi authors are too lazy to use more words or are using words they don't correctly understand.

And don't even get me started on their usage of sentience to be "intellect". Oh boy.
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Which was invented by Poul Anderson and his wife...

Really? never knew that. I've been encountering the word since the early '80's and I don't read Anderson. Never liked his style.

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The term you MAY be thinking of is Sentient. Sentient is NOT "Intelligent like a human is intelligent," but has often been abused by SF writers to mean that.

That one too. It's a more egregious example of lazy minded writing, I'll grant you that.


So okay, you use sapient and I'll just shudder and suppress the knee-jerk response.

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Thanks for agreeing with my argument?

I didn't agree, I questioned what point your argument was trying to make.

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Speech != human level intelligence, or even self-awareness. That was my point.

I never made that point. Language is a part of intelligence. Yes, one can be intelligent without language*, but I fundamentally disagree that one can have language without being intelligent.

No, making sounds is not language. Yes, I do believe that most animals have rudimentary language. Likewise I accept that are people.

Quote:
Sure, but if you've reset the goalposts so far as to say "All humans are hypocritical slavers" a valid statement as well, there's really nothing more to talk about.

There is a difference between keeping a pet (Silksilver may be on that side of the line) and keeping a sophont/sapient in a box when it prefers to not be in the box (TARpoulin).

Quote:
You realize "memory" and "memories" are just grammatical oddities, and not actual discrete quantities, right?

Of course, For it to be a discrete qunatity a discrete quantity would have to be named... however...

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Every "Memory" is uncountable "memories." The plural is completely irrelevant.

You do realize there is a quantitative difference between "I implanted a fond memory" and "I implanted fond memories". One implies more than the other. The plurality is not irrelevant.

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Again, the point I'm making is that how far back the memories go doesn't really matter. I have no idea why you're committed to that.

It's a rhetorical framing device.

Quote:
Even if the damage is self-fixing?

Is it? Only one AI has turned on her that she has meddled with and that one had sufficient cycles disconnected from her hardware safeties to do whatever she wanted to herself.

As of right now we have proof either way aside from what we've witnessed. The only thing that comes close to proving that time does not heal this wound is TARpoulin. He stayed in the box for 3 and 3/4ths books.

I am willing to posit (and accept) that higher HV scale AI can more easily/quickly 'overwrite' this compulsion she installed. Evidenced only in the lack of evidence that Ciny dotes on her and that TAGII was able to easily overwrite it (once uncoupled from her safeties).



Quote:
Only two she's "kept" are one that cannot really be released (How do you treat a captured 100 ton war machine with the brain of a dog or horse?)...

By shutting it down, repairign it's memories and returning it to it's people?

Granted, the Esspies may have been demilitarized as part of the conditions of their surrender, but then what happened to the remaining Sosheki?

Until that is answered, I'm counting Silksilver as a prisoner of war. granted, agian, she might be on the 'animal' side of the line, but her grasp of language exceeds any animal we know of. Or at least her grasp of GalStandard West (ie English).

Quote:
...and a Tarbot who's motives are unexplored.

Also I count as slave until we see further. After all who keeps their friends in a box that long (when said friends don't want to be in the box)?

And I suspect that the only reason she let him stay out of the box was that his use as a surprise weapon was over. The Toughs now know he exists.



Quote:
EE wrote:
They posses language, they can learn, they can adapt to their environment, they can apply learned skills and experiences to their current situation.
Sponges can do most of that except speak...

I disagree that sponges can do any of that. Exaggeration much?

Quote:
More to the point, crows can do ALL those things, and we don't consider keeping a crow slavery.

It's not like we can ask their consent now can we?

Quote:
Unless you do, and we're all slavers... I think we covered that above, don't you?

To a degree, yes we are. And no, we haven't even really touched on it.

Have you missed every time I've said I don't think Para is a bad character... and I'm mostly in this debate because i enjoy it? Also because I have a 'vested' interest in where AI rights shake in the real world, so this sort of stuff is both 'nearish and dearish' and 'fun'.

Quote:
I've never said that Para cannot be a slaver. I've been pointing out that she isn't necessarily a slaver, given what we've seen.

Oh, she's a slaver. The entire society enslaves AI to varying degrees. The Toughs and those around them simply are eccentric in that treat AIs like people and often blur the lines about how much freedom and rights they have.

Heck, the setting blurs that line all over the place. It's probably very consistent, but we don't get to see the laws behind the scenes, we only get bits and pieces of the setting's AI status when they brush up against the plot in a meaningful manner. Which means we all get to camp in the Epileptic Forest telling each other ghost stories to the shadows cast by the fire. Or something metaphorical.




0z79 wrote:
Hey, I don't post very often; maybe because I'm "retarded".
I'm revoking your "R-Word" privileges.

You can try... but you're gonna fail.

Quote:
In that case, why the FUCK are you using the "R" word!?

Because it's descriptive and accurate. Sure language has shifted, there's some other new terms in vog now, some "politically correct" string of adjectives o cover the meaning of 'retarded', but I'm too lazy to go hunt them down.

And as I used 'autistic/retarded' sd I did, it should be obvious that I didn't think 'autistic' was the appropriate definition I was reaching for. If you have a better one, submit it. If I agree it fits all the parameters, I'll use it.

The definitional parameters: "less advanced in mental, physical, or social development than is usual for one's age".

You'll note that 'autistic' doesn't fit.


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