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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:29 pm 
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The toughs are finally not being hilariously outgunned. Woo.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:17 pm 
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The Tough could try letting it continue for a bit, then contacting the UPA and explaining that while the extra illumination from those flares is nice, they really don't need it, and the duds are a nuisance. . .

--FreeFlier


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:51 am 
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FreeFlier wrote:
The Tough could try letting it continue for a bit, then contacting the UPA and explaining that while the extra illumination from those flares is nice, they really don't need it, and the duds are a nuisance. . .

--FreeFlier
It's less amusing when you realise the flares are going to be lighting up the bodies that are supposed to be saved. The UPA may not pose the Toughs a threat, but they may very well pose the cargo (dead people) a serious threat.

Actually, wouldn't the dead all be floating off in an expanding sphere? It's vacuum with no gravity, after all.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:48 am 
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Reaver225 wrote:
FreeFlier wrote:
The Tough could try letting it continue for a bit, then contacting the UPA and explaining that while the extra illumination from those flares is nice, they really don't need it, and the duds are a nuisance. . .

--FreeFlier
It's less amusing when you realise the flares are going to be lighting up the bodies that are supposed to be saved. The UPA may not pose the Toughs a threat, but they may very well pose the cargo (dead people) a serious threat.

Actually, wouldn't the dead all be floating off in an expanding sphere? It's vacuum with no gravity, after all.

I don't really know the mechanics behind it, but aren't they in an asteroid belt or something of that nature? The bodies are probably stuck in orbit.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:18 pm 
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sotanaht wrote:
Reaver225 wrote:
FreeFlier wrote:
The Tough could try letting it continue for a bit, then contacting the UPA and explaining that while the extra illumination from those flares is nice, they really don't need it, and the duds are a nuisance. . .

--FreeFlier
It's less amusing when you realise the flares are going to be lighting up the bodies that are supposed to be saved. The UPA may not pose the Toughs a threat, but they may very well pose the cargo (dead people) a serious threat.

Actually, wouldn't the dead all be floating off in an expanding sphere? It's vacuum with no gravity, after all.

I don't really know the mechanics behind it, but aren't they in an asteroid belt or something of that nature? The bodies are probably stuck in orbit.

The bodies have a gravitational attraction to each other, in the absence of other forces they will tend to stick together. Left alone for a few hundred (thousand?) years they might form an asteroid.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:31 pm 
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Motortiki wrote:
sotanaht wrote:
Reaver225 wrote:
It's less amusing when you realise the flares are going to be lighting up the bodies that are supposed to be saved. The UPA may not pose the Toughs a threat, but they may very well pose the cargo (dead people) a serious threat.

Actually, wouldn't the dead all be floating off in an expanding sphere? It's vacuum with no gravity, after all.

I don't really know the mechanics behind it, but aren't they in an asteroid belt or something of that nature? The bodies are probably stuck in orbit.

The bodies have a gravitational attraction to each other, in the absence of other forces they will tend to stick together. Left alone for a few hundred (thousand?) years they might form an asteroid.


It's overwhelmingly likely that the initial explosion/decompression gave them velocities much greater than their mutual escape velocity. On the scale of gravitational attraction, 60,000 or whoever many it is bodies is pretty small, even the habitat that held them when alive is pretty small.

At 1.e+13 kg at the density of water (decent approximation for flesh, and probably far too high for living space), you've got a sphere over 2.9km across, with an escape velocity of a slow stroll (2.1mph).

And the actual required speeds are slower for dissociating the entire structure, as the interior pieces are held by less mass.

This structure was probably much smaller than that. Wind alone during breakup could easily give much much higher speeds to the bodies than required for escape.

Now, they're all presumably in similar orbits around the star, and the orbits will eventually all pass back through the initial deployment point, so they won't scatter indefinitely until perturbed by other influences, but their mutual gravity is negligible.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:06 pm 
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But wouldn't the bodies have been gathered up by rescuers already on site? Isn't the problem really protecting the resuscitation operations?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:39 pm 
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macnut wrote:
But wouldn't the bodies have been gathered up by rescuers already on site? Isn't the problem really protecting the resuscitation operations?


Possibly, but they need help with more than protection from whoever, because they had a resuscitation problem they couldn't solve even prior to any mention of military problems and the Toughs are treating things like syringe guns as a probable necessity.

They have the problem of protecting themselves and other rescue workers and the bodies, but even prior to their arrival setting off local violence, they had a problem with the shear number of bodies and with getting them out of sunlight before their skins were damaged.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:04 pm 
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Warior4356 wrote:
The toughs are finally not being hilariously outgunned. Woo.


Yep
And, I'll bet you a case of beer right now, that THAT leads them to the usual swaggering knucklehead behavior, which gets people killed, and bring in an ACTUAL Navy who takes a rather dim view of what they think is shits and giggles.
These guys are not the rescue team you bring in


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:23 pm 
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Doug Lampert wrote:
macnut wrote:
But wouldn't the bodies have been gathered up by rescuers already on site? Isn't the problem really protecting the resuscitation operations?


Possibly, but they need help with more than protection from whoever, because they had a resuscitation problem they couldn't solve even prior to any mention of military problems and the Toughs are treating things like syringe guns as a probable necessity.

They have the problem of protecting themselves and other rescue workers and the bodies, but even prior to their arrival setting off local violence, they had a problem with the shear number of bodies and with getting them out of sunlight before their skins were damaged.

They didn't call the Toughs for protection, they called them for extra hands. The problem is they have no way of processing the bodies before they are damaged by radiation.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:43 pm 
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Motortiki wrote:
Doug Lampert wrote:
macnut wrote:
But wouldn't the bodies have been gathered up by rescuers already on site? Isn't the problem really protecting the resuscitation operations?


Possibly, but they need help with more than protection from whoever, because they had a resuscitation problem they couldn't solve even prior to any mention of military problems and the Toughs are treating things like syringe guns as a probable necessity.

They have the problem of protecting themselves and other rescue workers and the bodies, but even prior to their arrival setting off local violence, they had a problem with the shear number of bodies and with getting them out of sunlight before their skins were damaged.

They didn't call the Toughs for protection, they called them for extra hands. The problem is they have no way of processing the bodies before they are damaged by radiation.

Yep, and the shortage of hands means the bodies are not yet protected from any incidental radiation due to weapon's fire. The shortage of hands means that there's more urgency, the possible weapon's fire effects on unshielded bodies means you probably can't just let the militia take pot shots. The navy means you can't just shoot the militia.

It's an interlocking set of problems that can't easily be solved by fire-power.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:10 pm 
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Reaver225 wrote:
FreeFlier wrote:
The Tough could try letting it continue for a bit, then contacting the UPA and explaining that while the extra illumination from those flares is nice, they really don't need it, and the duds are a nuisance. . .
It's less amusing when you realise the flares are going to be lighting up the bodies that are supposed to be saved. The UPA may not pose the Toughs a threat, but they may very well pose the cargo (dead people) a serious threat. . . .

It's intimidation . . . the implication is that your very best attack is so very incredibly inferior that the enemy doesn't even recognize it as an attack.

--FreeFlier


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:08 pm 
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Doug Lampert wrote:
It's an interlocking set of problems that can't easily be solved by fire-power.

Just like every other time they've hilariously outgunned their foes.

That's just how it generally goes for our... eh... heroes*. Either they outgun the enemy, but can't just display the raw power, or they are completely outclassed survive by luck, moxy, and chutzpah.

It's a rare fight where the Toughs find they are evenly matched (indeed, I think it's against Kaff's basic belief structure - fair fights are for losers).



* It's certainly a word that could be used here to describe something sort of approximating our protags.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:28 pm 
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Doug Lampert wrote:
Motortiki wrote:
They didn't call the Toughs for protection, they called them for extra hands. The problem is they have no way of processing the bodies before they are damaged by radiation.

Yep, and the shortage of hands means the bodies are not yet protected from any incidental radiation due to weapon's fire. The shortage of hands means that there's more urgency, the possible weapon's fire effects on unshielded bodies means you probably can't just let the militia take pot shots. The navy means you can't just shoot the militia.

It's an interlocking set of problems that can't easily be solved by fire-power.

As the amount of fire power increases, the number of social problems it is incapable of solving goes to zero. If you can destroy the navy, then the militia is not a problem. If you are willing to kill large numbers of combatants, you can rescue almost all of the non-combatants without trouble.

You just have to take away all the forevers.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:08 am 
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keybounce wrote:
You just have to take away all the forevers.

What we've got here is a failure to communicate. Some people you just can't reach. So you get what we have, and that's the way they want it. Well, they get it!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:18 pm 
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I know it was the joke and all, but could we actually see a ship classification table? That would be interesting.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:28 pm 
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JohnSmith wrote:
I know it was the joke and all, but could we actually see a ship classification table? That would be interesting.

It's in the Planet Mercenary roleplaying book. The letter designates hull size, with Z the smallest and Q the largest. The number represents firepower; according to the book, numbers 7 and above are the "MOAR GUNS" classes.


Last edited by Motortiki on Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:30 pm 
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Assuming that it's from the Planet Mercenary RPG, V5 is a 100-299 m vessel with point defenses and minimal ship-to-ship weaponry. While Neoafan Battleships are not statted in the book, it can safely be assumed that they do have significant STS weaponry onboard. The militia is picking a fight it very definitely can't win.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:42 pm 
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Nemoricus wrote:
Assuming that it's from the Planet Mercenary RPG, V5 is a 100-299 m vessel with point defenses and minimal ship-to-ship weaponry. While Neoafan Battleships are not statted in the book, it can safely be assumed that they do have significant STS weaponry onboard. The militia is picking a fight it very definitely can't win.

Breath Weapon is rated as a S9, which puts it firmly in the "MORE DAKKA" category.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:45 pm 
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Motortiki wrote:
Nemoricus wrote:
Assuming that it's from the Planet Mercenary RPG, V5 is a 100-299 m vessel with point defenses and minimal ship-to-ship weaponry. While Neoafan Battleships are not statted in the book, it can safely be assumed that they do have significant STS weaponry onboard. The militia is picking a fight it very definitely can't win.

Breath Weapon is rated as a S9, which puts it firmly in the "MORE DAKKA" category.


To establish upper end of scale: how Battleplates and PD-ships are classified?

Also, is the number part of scale logarithmic or something like that? I was under impression that Breath Weapon (classified as 9) packs significantly more firepower than Cynthetic Certainty (classified as 8).


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:51 pm 
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The Toughs are flying ships with hulls tough enough to survive ramming an enemy. All but two of Breath Weapon's boats can survive ramming the militia.

An "accidental" traffic collision is not an act of war.

I know what I'd do.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:05 pm 
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Mech wrote:
Motortiki wrote:
Nemoricus wrote:
Assuming that it's from the Planet Mercenary RPG, V5 is a 100-299 m vessel with point defenses and minimal ship-to-ship weaponry. While Neoafan Battleships are not statted in the book, it can safely be assumed that they do have significant STS weaponry onboard. The militia is picking a fight it very definitely can't win.

[i]Breath Weapon is rated as a S9, which puts it firmly in the "MORE DAKKA" category.


To establish upper end of scale: how Battleplates and PD-ships are classified?

Also, is the number part of scale logarithmic or something like that? I was under impression that Breath Weapon (classified as 9) packs significantly more firepower than Cynthetic Certainty (classified as 8).


The difference between the Cynthetic Certainty and the Breath Weapon probably have to do with the size rating. I assume that an X class is significantly smaller than an S class. So even if their weapon proportions are the same the S will simply have more guns.

Which actually does bring up the point of how does an X8 compare to a V5. The number's higher of course, but is it enough to make up for the size disparity? Tagon certainly seems to be unimpressed with the militia, but it would be nice to get some confirmation from someone who has the book.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:11 pm 
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Motortiki wrote:
Nemoricus wrote:
Assuming that it's from the Planet Mercenary RPG, V5 is a 100-299 m vessel with point defenses and minimal ship-to-ship weaponry. While Neoafan Battleships are not statted in the book, it can safely be assumed that they do have significant STS weaponry onboard. The militia is picking a fight it very definitely can't win.

Breath Weapon is rated as a S9, which puts it firmly in the "MORE DAKKA" category.

Putting it mildly, really. That's two points above the UNS Battleship.

Out of curiosity, where did you find Breath Weapon's stats?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:22 pm 
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I figured it might be from the RPG.

And yeah, the two-axis system isn't super helpful if there's no way to compare between the two.

I like the visual distinction between this militia ship and every warship we've seen though. Warships universally have at least one ridiculously oversized annie plant, often a couple.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:23 pm 
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Nemoricus wrote:
Out of curiosity, where did you find Breath Weapon's stats?


S9 comes from the 10/29 comic.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:25 pm 
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evileeyore wrote:
Doug Lampert wrote:
It's an interlocking set of problems that can't easily be solved by fire-power.

Just like every other time they've hilariously outgunned their foes.

That's just how it generally goes for our... eh... heroes*. Either they outgun the enemy, but can't just display the raw power, or they are completely outclassed survive by luck, moxy, and chutzpah.

It's a rare fight where the Toughs find they are evenly matched (indeed, I think it's against Kaff's basic belief structure - fair fights are for losers).



* It's certainly a word that could be used here to describe something sort of approximating our protags.

Good things were done and they were nearby, I think.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:33 pm 
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So I went and bought the planet mercenary rpg pdf for reference and I noticed some things.

First off the weapon class seems to be independent of size. So the Cynthetic Certainty's X8 does actually put it in shooting range of the Breath Weapon's S9. Of course the fact that even the Maxim 39 is a V7 means that each of them is in the "that's a whole lot of guns" category. Also of note is that the Breath Weapon has auxiliary gunboats which probably give it a whole extra level of firepower.

A regular dragon class cruiser is only X4. The Cynthetic Certainty has been heavily upgraded.

UNS carriers are S8, and the other S8 example is something fielded by governments and elite mercenary groups. The Breath Weapon's very existence puts the Tough's basically at the top of the heap. Though it's actually a downgrade from when they had Petey and his superfortress, which was Q8.

To answer a previous question battleplates are Q7s and up depending on how many annie plants they have.


Last edited by Arcanestomper on Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:44 pm 
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That implies that Carriers and Breath Weapon could be expected to go toe-to-toe with battleplates, and in-universe everybody has seemed to pretty much accept that the only single ships which could challenge battleplates were Psychobear equivalents (was it superfortresses, or was it the 'cloak' ships?)

CC's weirdly high classification might be an artifact of the lance. Hard to boil down "If you like suicide missions, you can kill just about anything!" into a single digit.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:52 pm 
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JohnSmith wrote:
That implies that Carriers and Breath Weapon could be expected to go toe-to-toe with battleplates, and in-universe everybody has seemed to pretty much accept that the only single ships which could challenge battleplates were Psychobear equivalents (was it superfortresses, or was it the 'cloak' ships?)

CC's weirdly high classification might be an artifact of the lance. Hard to boil down "If you like suicide missions, you can kill just about anything!" into a single digit.


Yeah the category tables don't make it entirely clear, but there must be some increase of firepower based on hull size in addition to the number class. For one thing when they were attacked by pirates the Broken Wind was only a match for three at a time, while a battleplate would probably have been able to sweep the whole fleet. Though it's also possible that the Breath Weapon has been upgraded over its Broken Wind iteration.

Ob'enn battelplate equivalents are the Superfortresses. The cloak is some kind of unholy supership way way outside the given classification sizes. Interestingly it says that the Ob'enn's natural enemies, those lizard guys, also had superfortresses, but we've never seen one.

As for the CC I would note that the main gun is only the most obvious of its upgrades. Tagon Sr. did say it was a custom job based on the regular dragon cruisers, and we haven't actually seen it engage in a ship to ship fight yet. So it's hard to gauge how much of that 8 is the cannon or not. That said an X is still half the size of a V, and the Soulward Honor's annie plants look hilariously undersized for its rating. So I expect the CC could roll over it as Tagon expects.

It's also worth noting that the CC is in the Size category Tagon is the most comfortable commanding. Even if he still only had the Kitesfear I would be willing to bet he could take on Shiplord Srabben's fleet. Though he would probably try to avoid battle given the odds.

Politics are probably going to be more of a problem than ship to ship battles in this book.


Last edited by Arcanestomper on Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:04 pm 
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I just thought of something. Why hasn't anyone built a warship based on teraport cages yet. At the very least you could resupply your ships from your home base. And with the new open cage designs you could make ships that are mostly armor and engines, but have the firepower of much larger vessels.


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