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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:13 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
I just thought of something. Why hasn't anyone built a warship based on teraport cages yet. At the very least you could resupply your ships from your home base. And with the new open cage designs you could make ships that are mostly armor and engines, but have the firepower of much larger vessels.

Most cages only work when the enemy doesn't know you have them. There have been some exceptions and I'm not sure how they work exactly, but unless you have the kind of technology that's in Cindercone they wouldn't make very effective weapons for very long. If you do have that tech then nobody wants to give you the chance to use it.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:20 pm 
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sotanaht wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
I just thought of something. Why hasn't anyone built a warship based on teraport cages yet. At the very least you could resupply your ships from your home base. And with the new open cage designs you could make ships that are mostly armor and engines, but have the firepower of much larger vessels.

Most cages only work when the enemy doesn't know you have them. There have been some exceptions and I'm not sure how they work exactly, but unless you have the kind of technology that's in Cindercone they wouldn't make very effective weapons for very long. If you do have that tech then nobody wants to give you the chance to use it.


I don't believe we've seen anyone try to use a cage to move between two of their own ships. Mostly we've seen them used for infiltrating enemy strongholds. But that is a valid point.

That said Kevyn does have access to the technology in Cindercone and this latest one is clearly a new design. Plus he may also have talked to Putzho whose cage technology seems to be far superior to galactic standard. I suppose Kevyn isn't really a warship designer though.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:50 pm 
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This scale can't be right.

According to replies describing it, UNS battle-SHIP has rating 7 and weakest battle-PLATES also have rating of 7. Meanwhile, I remember specifically that in time travel arc, officer commanding former Pranger's Banger's ship was horrified when he realised that he accidentally ordered AI to fire at battleplate, initially mishearing it as battleship: he literally tried to brush battleship away, indicating that it was no real or persistent threat, while battleplate was and instant-kill threat, if there ever were battleship grade battleplates we would have seen him pray that it's one of the smaller plates or something like that.

Furthermore, while Breath Weapon certainly has phenomenal staying power, it really doesn't strike me as something able to go toe-to-toe with battleplate.

The only way that makes sense is if number rating is something like "density of firepower": amount of hurt per length/surface/volume of hull. That way battleplates, what with their secondary role as mobile shipyards and support fleet replacement, they could very well have surprisingly low "density of firepower" but since they are huge, they still get a lot of it.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:55 pm 
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Reaver225 wrote:
FreeFlier wrote:
The Tough could try letting it continue for a bit, then contacting the UPA and explaining that while the extra illumination from those flares is nice, they really don't need it, and the duds are a nuisance. . .

--FreeFlier
It's less amusing when you realise the flares are going to be lighting up the bodies that are supposed to be saved. The UPA may not pose the Toughs a threat, but they may very well pose the cargo (dead people) a serious threat.

Actually, wouldn't the dead all be floating off in an expanding sphere? It's vacuum with no gravity, after all.


They have gathered the corpses, to keep them out of sunlight. They likely are leaving them in cold storage to prevent spoilage. Ditto vacuum.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:22 pm 
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That section of the planet mercenary book specifically says that what the ship is called is basically worthless as a guideline. There are destroyers and battleships in there which have wildly varying values. So there could well be battleships that can match battleplates.

That said you are probably right about it being a density of firepower thing. There are class 7 destroyers listed which clearly aren't going to be taking on class 7 battleplates. And it would explain why battleplates are rated lower than superfortresses since superfortresses are more heavily armed on a ton for ton level.

My guess is that it's a firepower per volume rated on a logarithmic scale. So any class 8 ship could beat a class 7 in the same size category, and would be more evenly matched against a class 7 from the next size category up.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:51 am 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
I just thought of something. Why hasn't anyone built a warship based on teraport cages yet. At the very least you could resupply your ships from your home base. And with the new open cage designs you could make ships that are mostly armor and engines, but have the firepower of much larger vessels.

Teraport cages burn out, and work best when they're used as few times as possible with minimal mass. Unless your enemy is so grossly incompetent as to neglect TAD entirely, they probably aren't worth it as a standard in-combat resupply method.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:35 am 
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Warior4356 wrote:
The toughs are finally not being hilariously outgunned. Woo.

It has just occurred to me, this isn't "bringing a tank to a gang fight", it's bringing three tanks to a soapbox demolition derby...


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:06 am 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
JohnSmith wrote:
Yeah the category tables don't make it entirely clear, but there must be some increase of firepower based on hull size in addition to the number class. For one thing when they were attacked by pirates the Broken Wind was only a match for three at a time, while a battleplate would probably have been able to sweep the whole fleet. Though it's also possible that the Breath Weapon has been upgraded over its Broken Wind iteration.


Oafan ships were engineered to fight Pa'anuri, and Broken Wind was de-mothballed "as is", only changes were in the interior with the addition of decks and bulkheads. So they could have powerful guns that are not practical to use in normal engagements.

The RL version of this would be when the Japanese battleships had difficulties fighting US destroyers in Leyte Gulf. Yes, one hit by a battleship would wreck a destroyer but in practice that did not happen because the destroyers fought below the battleship's guns depression angle and while a destroyer's guns could not hope to sink a battleship, they could severely damage its secondary artillery and reduce its fighting capability, which is what happened in that battle, to the point that the Japanese thought they were engaging battlecruisers and not destroyers.

So I guess that Breath Weapon had been retrofitted so this scenario won't happen, which means that its secondary weapons system can probably deliver an HUGE amount of hurt to the enemy.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:07 pm 
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Nemoricus wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
I just thought of something. Why hasn't anyone built a warship based on teraport cages yet. At the very least you could resupply your ships from your home base. And with the new open cage designs you could make ships that are mostly armor and engines, but have the firepower of much larger vessels.

Teraport cages burn out, and work best when they're used as few times as possible with minimal mass. Unless your enemy is so grossly incompetent as to neglect TAD entirely, they probably aren't worth it as a standard in-combat resupply method.


I've been asking this since the terraport cage was introduced. We haven't seen the 'burn out' or 'blocked by multiple TAD' issues in a long time. It seems like if those were still a problem you wouldn't send your people through for routine matters, like coaching new brass.
At minimum you could import fuel, and we know that TAG could hold off even a battleplate's gravy (at range, admittedly) while its fuel held out. In the middle you could spam near-infinite VDAs, and at the extreme... Well. Untouchable plasma cannons the size of a city, tiny ships acting as targeting systems and emitters. You know, Long Guns that won't quite start the apocalypse!

Hum. You know, it IS called "Breath Weapon..."


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:27 pm 
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JohnSmith wrote:
Nemoricus wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
I just thought of something. Why hasn't anyone built a warship based on teraport cages yet. At the very least you could resupply your ships from your home base. And with the new open cage designs you could make ships that are mostly armor and engines, but have the firepower of much larger vessels.

Teraport cages burn out, and work best when they're used as few times as possible with minimal mass. Unless your enemy is so grossly incompetent as to neglect TAD entirely, they probably aren't worth it as a standard in-combat resupply method.


I've been asking this since the terraport cage was introduced. We haven't seen the 'burn out' or 'blocked by multiple TAD' issues in a long time. It seems like if those were still a problem you wouldn't send your people through for routine matters, like coaching new brass.
At minimum you could import fuel, and we know that TAG could hold off even a battleplate's gravy (at range, admittedly) while its fuel held out. In the middle you could spam near-infinite VDAs, and at the extreme... Well. Untouchable plasma cannons the size of a city, tiny ships acting as targeting systems and emitters. You know, Long Guns that won't quite start the apocalypse!

Hum. You know, it IS called "Breath Weapon..."


If anyone incorporated cages into their weapon systems I would expect it to be the ancient Oafan. And we know for a fact that the Toughs don't necessarily know everything that their Oafan ships can do.

That said I don't really see it happening. From a narrative standpoint a breakthrough in new warship design would add nothing to the story at this point. Or rather the long guns already fill that role.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:29 pm 
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Okay. So, how did they refuel annie plants before teraport? Now they just teraport fuel inside, but before? Unless I'm mistaken, annie plants are described as having single molecule as their entire outer shell. Even if I'm mistaken, all disruptions of outer shell we have seen were invariably leading to critical structural failure, so how did they open annie plants to shove more neutronium inside?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:45 pm 
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M[i]ech wrote:
Okay. So, how did they refuel annie plants before teraport? Now they just teraport fuel inside, but before? Unless I'm mistaken, annie plants are described as having single molecule as their entire outer shell. Even if I'm mistaken, all disruptions of outer shell we have seen were invariably leading to critical structural failure, so how did they open annie plants to shove more neutronium inside?


They have processes for recycling and reforging PTUs. It would have been much more expensive than teraporting, but swapping out annie plants when they run out of fuel and recycling them would be one option.

Another option: a molecule can be designed to flex and open up when the conditions are right. Maybe if the right stimulus is applied to a pre-teraport annie plant it will open a refueling hatch.

One more theory! Wormholes are a technology that's well established in the setting, and the F'sherl-Ganni would have had an incentive (in avoiding war with the Pa'anuri) to share small wormhole technology so that no one developed the teraport for refueling their annie plants.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:56 pm 
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M[i]ech wrote:
Okay. So, how did they refuel annie plants before teraport? Now they just teraport fuel inside, but before? Unless I'm mistaken, annie plants are described as having single molecule as their entire outer shell. Even if I'm mistaken, all disruptions of outer shell we have seen were invariably leading to critical structural failure, so how did they open annie plants to shove more neutronium inside?


I honestly don't remember where it described annie plants. Do you have a reference? My understanding was that the neutronium was the important part, and losing containment was bad, but there wasn't actually any reason you couldn't open it up. I mean for one thing if you can't open it, then how can you actually convert that neutronium into energy.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:35 am 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
I honestly don't remember where it described annie plants. Do you have a reference? My understanding was that the neutronium was the important part, and losing containment was bad, but there wasn't actually any reason you couldn't open it up. I mean for one thing if you can't open it, then how can you actually convert that neutronium into energy.


"Imperfections in the extruded supermolecule resulted in catastrophic failure"


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:11 am 
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Might just be me, but I'm not reading that as to mean annie plants have monomolecular thickness.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:17 am 
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"One molecule" doesn't mean "has no holes." I'm pretty sure we've seen one cutaway or something that showed pipes going through the perimeter, though I can't find it at the moment. For reference, the silicone wafers that make up modern processors are arguably "one perfect molecule," but they certainly get cut all the time. And proteins are single linear molecules that are huge and tend to make up large complex 3d shapes. Extend that large enough and you could make a 'single molecule' sphere with holes in it.

As to "how do you get power out," well, gravity. Gravity manipulation has always been so closely associated with annie plants, I'm not actually sure it doesn't require neutronium.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:01 am 
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Here's a perfect picture showing a matter intake port of an annihilation plant: https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2014-11-23

I don't remember where I saw confirmation that this is what it is, but it may have been a footnote, or perhaps a twitter post.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:11 pm 
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JohnSmith wrote:
"One molecule" doesn't mean "has no holes." I'm pretty sure we've seen one cutaway or something that showed pipes going through the perimeter, though I can't find it at the moment. For reference, the silicone wafers that make up modern processors are arguably "one perfect molecule," but they certainly get cut all the time. And proteins are single linear molecules that are huge and tend to make up large complex 3d shapes. Extend that large enough and you could make a 'single molecule' sphere with holes in it.

As to "how do you get power out," well, gravity. Gravity manipulation has always been so closely associated with annie plants, I'm not actually sure it doesn't require neutronium.


The thing is if the gravity of the neutronium is the source of power, then you can't actually run out of fuel. Exerting gravity doesn't decrease the mass. Being able to run out of fuel means that something is taking the neutronium out of the annie plant. Whether that is physically taking it or converting it into normal matter and energy and taking the waste products out.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:53 pm 
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Didn't Credomar have to fully shut down TAD in order to refuel their plants? Even if they weren't designed for tearaport in mind, a wormhole could be affected by TAD.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:05 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
JohnSmith wrote:
"One molecule" doesn't mean "has no holes." I'm pretty sure we've seen one cutaway or something that showed pipes going through the perimeter, though I can't find it at the moment. For reference, the silicone wafers that make up modern processors are arguably "one perfect molecule," but they certainly get cut all the time. And proteins are single linear molecules that are huge and tend to make up large complex 3d shapes. Extend that large enough and you could make a 'single molecule' sphere with holes in it.

As to "how do you get power out," well, gravity. Gravity manipulation has always been so closely associated with annie plants, I'm not actually sure it doesn't require neutronium.


The thing is if the gravity of the neutronium is the source of power, then you can't actually run out of fuel. Exerting gravity doesn't decrease the mass. Being able to run out of fuel means that something is taking the neutronium out of the annie plant. Whether that is physically taking it or converting it into normal matter and energy and taking the waste products out.

Annihilation plants run on matter-energy conversion. I'm not sure that there *are* waste products, at least not waste products that interact meaningfully with ordinary baryonic matter.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:06 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
JohnSmith wrote:
"One molecule" doesn't mean "has no holes." I'm pretty sure we've seen one cutaway or something that showed pipes going through the perimeter, though I can't find it at the moment. For reference, the silicone wafers that make up modern processors are arguably "one perfect molecule," but they certainly get cut all the time. And proteins are single linear molecules that are huge and tend to make up large complex 3d shapes. Extend that large enough and you could make a 'single molecule' sphere with holes in it.

As to "how do you get power out," well, gravity. Gravity manipulation has always been so closely associated with annie plants, I'm not actually sure it doesn't require neutronium.


The thing is if the gravity of the neutronium is the source of power, then you can't actually run out of fuel. Exerting gravity doesn't decrease the mass. Being able to run out of fuel means that something is taking the neutronium out of the annie plant. Whether that is physically taking it or converting it into normal matter and energy and taking the waste products out.


You also couldn't extract power or fly the ship with it. You'd just be an oddly shaped asteroid. Clearly they can manipulate gravity in ways that require energy to be transferred. I simply mean that for all we know, you literally need to use an annie plant for that process, not just because you need a lot of power. That's a pure WAG though. It's also called an "Annihilation plant" so I'm going to say there's not much solid waste produced.

grahamf wrote:
Didn't Credomar have to fully shut down TAD in order to refuel their plants? Even if they weren't designed for tearaport in mind, a wormhole could be affected by TAD.

That could also just be a tankage issue. Those are some awfully big annie plants Credomar has, gotta put the gas somewhere.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:40 am 
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M[i]ech wrote:
This scale can't be right.

According to replies describing it, UNS battle-SHIP has rating 7 and weakest battle-PLATES also have rating of 7. Meanwhile, I remember specifically that in time travel arc, officer commanding former Pranger's Banger's ship was horrified when he realised that he accidentally ordered AI to fire at battleplate, initially mishearing it as battleship: he literally tried to brush battleship away, indicating that it was no real or persistent threat, while battleplate was and instant-kill threat, if there ever were battleship grade battleplates we would have seen him pray that it's one of the smaller plates or something like that.

Furthermore, while Breath Weapon certainly has phenomenal staying power, it really doesn't strike me as something able to go toe-to-toe with battleplate.

The only way that makes sense is if number rating is something like "density of firepower": amount of hurt per length/surface/volume of hull. That way battleplates, what with their secondary role as mobile shipyards and support fleet replacement, they could very well have surprisingly low "density of firepower" but since they are huge, they still get a lot of it.



I believe the size rating is a multiplier for the weapons rating. A tiny Z9 is probably not going to be able to be unable to do anything to a comparatively gargantuan but lightly armed T3, just because it can't possibly have enough energy for its weapons to crack the shields on a craft that has Annie plants several times larger than the entire Z-class.

The only reason Tagii could hold out against that battleplate was because of range and because the 'plate was stepped down to avoid the Pa'anuri's notice.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:55 am 
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JohnSmith wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
The thing is if the gravity of the neutronium is the source of power, then you can't actually run out of fuel. Exerting gravity doesn't decrease the mass. Being able to run out of fuel means that something is taking the neutronium out of the annie plant. Whether that is physically taking it or converting it into normal matter and energy and taking the waste products out.


You also couldn't extract power or fly the ship with it. You'd just be an oddly shaped asteroid. Clearly they can manipulate gravity in ways that require energy to be transferred. I simply mean that for all we know, you literally need to use an annie plant for that process, not just because you need a lot of power. That's a pure WAG though. It's also called an "Annihilation plant" so I'm going to say there's not much solid waste produced.

grahamf wrote:
Didn't Credomar have to fully shut down TAD in order to refuel their plants? Even if they weren't designed for tearaport in mind, a wormhole could be affected by TAD.

That could also just be a tankage issue. Those are some awfully big annie plants Credomar has, gotta put the gas somewhere.
[/quote]

Credomar didn't HAVE to. It was EXCEEDINGLY STUPID to. Like knocking down a wall of your house to bring in your groceries, was the example given.

Also, I think it may be an offshoot of the Wormgate and hypernet communications technology. If you SLIGHTLY increase the size of the wormhole used to send data through, you can send micro packets of neutronium across short distances. And a little neutronium goes a long way. It's expensive, energy-wise, because you're not converting anything to standing gravitic waves like the Teraport, but you're literally beside a fuel source. After the Teraport, they switched over to that because it's so much more efficient and secure.

TAD can probable close these molecule-scale wormholes in a manner similar to how you can jam hypernet comms - because honestly, how else would you be able to jam communications based on a nanoscale wormhole than by jamming the wormhole formation itself?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:09 pm 
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Zeus67 wrote:
Oafan ships were engineered...

Just popping in a note to say your sig pic is once again an appropriate representation of the events in comic. But for once the toughs are the big guys!


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