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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:06 pm 
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M[i]ech wrote:
Zeus67 wrote:
M[i]ech wrote:
They scrapped the gun because they realised that it doesn't actually work. Kaff certainly was nonplussed after learning how it works.


Actually they scrapped the gun due to budget cuts. The gun works very well. The problem is that you have to be very close for it to be effective. That's why Kaff said "A gun you bring to a knife fight". In any case that does not negate the fact that the Dragon class cruiser is a knife fighter, it is just that the bean counters took away the big knife (falchion more likely).


There is a difference between technically working and actually working. Weapon which technically works but you are dead before you have a chance to actually use it doesn't actually work at all and as such is utter waste of pretty much everything.


I think we should agree to disagree on this issue.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:29 pm 
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M[i]ech wrote:
Wrong. Tagon described it as "gun you bring to a knife fight", which clearly states that while it's technically a gun, it's no better than knife, and as such, in STS combat not very useful.

I didn't mention him, so... no real bearing on what I said.

I'm calling it "the knife you bring to a gun fight", because if you can close with it, you win. See also the 21 Foot Rule.


Last edited by evileeyore on Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:32 pm 
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Clearly it has some tactical use. Tagon Sr., plus all the AIs, wouldn't have approved it if it didn't.

Maybe it does improve the ship's operational abilites, but is really expensive for the gain so the bean counters scrapped it as not worth it.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:34 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
Maybe it does improve the ship's operational abilites, but is really expensive for the gain so the bean counters scrapped it as not worth it.

To be fair... it's a short range weapon. It's a knife. A really big scary one-stab-one-kill knife.... but it's still a knife.

If the sniper can see you, he's not afraid of it.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:41 pm 
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evileeyore wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
Maybe it does improve the ship's operational abilites, but is really expensive for the gain so the bean counters scrapped it as not worth it.

To be fair... it's a short range weapon. It's a knife. A really big scary one-stab-one-kill knife.... but it's still a knife.

If the sniper can see you, he's not afraid of it.


Cindy said that she could make a tricorn class battleplate into a four sided battleplate with it by cutting one of the vertices away.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:49 pm 
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To answer an earlier question, I believe "sack-hull" refers to either Oafans or ships of Oafan design.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:55 pm 
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Nemoricus wrote:
To answer an earlier question, I believe "sack-hull" refers to either Oafans or ships of Oafan design.


If so, Srabben's tossing around racial (species?) slurs like candy.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:42 pm 
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Zeus67 wrote:
Cindy said that she could make a tricorn class battleplate into a four sided battleplate with it by cutting one of the vertices away.

Sure... she just has be all sneaksy and get up into range first.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:06 am 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
Clearly it has some tactical use. Tagon Sr., plus all the AIs, wouldn't have approved it if it didn't.

Maybe it does improve the ship's operational abilites, but is really expensive for the gain so the bean counters scrapped it as not worth it.

Tagon Jr has a history of engaging ships that heavily out-gun him, and then getting wayyy further through their point defenses than he has any right to. (Up to and through the hull, even :D ) Tagon Sr. is just giving him a ship that plays to his strengths.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:53 am 
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A knife you bring to a gunfight where everyone is immune to specifically bullets.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:57 am 
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keybounce wrote:
For a combat ship captain to be that unaware of the ship's combat capability -- roughly 4 seconds per missile is a slow but steady stream, and an hour of firepower is 50 minutes more than needed in almost all cases -- is seriously incompetent.

I'm getting the impression he's never been in charge of it in a fight, or even a challenging exercise.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:32 pm 
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John Dallman wrote:
I'm getting the impression he's never been in charge of it in a fight, or even a challenging exercise.

He's been called a Ship-thief*, so it's possible this is his first engagement with this ship under his feet.




* Though that was by someone who may not have any facts at all.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:00 pm 
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evileeyore wrote:
Zeus67 wrote:
Cindy said that she could make a tricorn class battleplate into a four sided battleplate with it by cutting one of the vertices away.

Sure... she just has be all sneaksy and get up into range first.


And that's what I don't see happening with consistency.
Both engagements with battleplates were literally one of a kind (Oisiri is so far the only such object, and Zoojack can't happen again because Milky Way is now protected from incursion by DAMEs). And both relied on DAMEs... heavily influencing combat environment.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:44 pm 
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M[i]ech wrote:
And that's what I don't see happening with consistency.

I agree.

However, "only useful in limited* circumstances" is worlds away from "gun doesn't work".


And note, I still understand what you are saying, I just disagree that that's a useful way of saying it. The gun works. It simply doesn't work the way the 'top brass' want their guns to work.

The original Dragon design is more of a "act like a missile but be way tougher than a missile". IE: get in close, penetrate the shield, destroy the target.

The 'top brass' didn't think it was worth the price... probably because they already have missile designed to do that (well almost that. The missile certainly can't stand up to as much point defense as a Dragon can).





* And by 'limited' we can also mean 'specifically engineered' such as having a tight ECW/ECCW support craft to wreck the enemy's capacity to stop the Dragon from closing. Or even multiple Dragons all closing from differing angles and thus splitting the enemy's attention.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:22 pm 
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Kendrakirai wrote:
Nemoricus wrote:
To answer an earlier question, I believe "sack-hull" refers to either Oafans or ships of Oafan design.


If so, Srabben's tossing around racial (species?) slurs like candy.


Discrimination based on sex is sexism, based on race is racism, logically, discrimination based on species should be speciesm. Thus "racial" should logically become "special". I do believe we need less logical word for that.

evileeyore wrote:
M[i]ech wrote:
And that's what I don't see happening with consistency.

I agree.

However, "only useful in limited* circumstances" is worlds away from "gun doesn't work".


And note, I still understand what you are saying, I just disagree that that's a useful way of saying it. The gun works. It simply doesn't work the way the 'top brass' want their guns to work.

The original Dragon design is more of a "act like a missile but be way tougher than a missile". IE: get in close, penetrate the shield, destroy the target.

The 'top brass' didn't think it was worth the price... probably because they already have missile designed to do that (well almost that. The missile certainly can't stand up to as much point defense as a Dragon can).





* And by 'limited' we can also mean 'specifically engineered' such as having a tight ECW/ECCW support craft to wreck the enemy's capacity to stop the Dragon from closing. Or even multiple Dragons all closing from differing angles and thus splitting the enemy's attention.


Morokweng (?, the 'plate destroyed over Osiri) if I remember correctly was described as having missiles larger than Touch-and-Go (unless I'm mistaken and that exchange happened in Zoojack and concerned Tunguska and Cereal Peacemaker respectively), so there already are missiles larger than Dragons for heavy STS work.

My entire argument is that I don't believe CC actually outguns UPA: large chunk of CC firepower rank comes from gun which wouldn't come into play here if Shiplord's assesement of other TT ships was correct.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:15 pm 
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Zeus67 wrote:
evileeyore wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
Maybe it does improve the ship's operational abilites, but is really expensive for the gain so the bean counters scrapped it as not worth it.

To be fair... it's a short range weapon. It's a knife. A really big scary one-stab-one-kill knife.... but it's still a knife.

If the sniper can see you, he's not afraid of it.


Cindy said that she could make a tricorn class battleplate into a four sided battleplate with it by cutting one of the vertices away.

That does give us a general idea of how powerful the machete is. Dealing with shields and point defenses is a concern, but not an unsurmountable one based on history.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:16 pm 
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I wonder what happens if you try to shoot that through a TOE cage?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:30 am 
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M[i]ech wrote:
Morokweng (?, the 'plate destroyed over Osiri) if I remember correctly was described as having missiles larger than Touch-and-Go (unless I'm mistaken and that exchange happened in Zoojack and concerned Tunguska and Cereal Peacemaker respectively), so there already are missiles larger than Dragons for heavy STS work.

My entire argument is that I don't believe CC actually outguns UPA: large chunk of CC firepower rank comes from gun which wouldn't come into play here if Shiplord's assesement of other TT ships was correct.

It was Tunguska and the breacher missiles were nearly as large as the Serial Peacemaker. http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2004-02-23

The exchange between the Touch-and-Go and Morokweng over Osiri concerned the fact that Kweng's point defenses were way better than Tagii's missiles. http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2012-12-18

*And sarcastic thank you for triggering an archive dive.*

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:36 am 
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Bruce the Loon wrote:
*And sarcastic thank you for triggering an archive dive.*

I always love when my pedantic need to correct someone triggers one of those. It's so damn time consuming... but also so great to reread the older comics.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:53 am 
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The Touch and Go was a much larger ship than either the Serial Peacemaker or the Kitesfear. But the Serial Peacemaker was about the same size as the Kitesfear or even slighter larger. So there are certainly breacher missiles similar in size to dragon class cruisers.

Edit: You know I just realized that Cindy's first synthetic statement is false. The Tunguska isn't actually a triangle. It's a hexagon.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:28 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
The Touch and Go was a much larger ship than either the Serial Peacemaker or the Kitesfear. But the Serial Peacemaker was about the same size as the Kitesfear or even slighter larger. So there are certainly breacher missiles similar in size to dragon class cruisers.

Edit: You know I just realized that Cindy's first synthetic statement is false. The Tunguska isn't actually a triangle. It's a hexagon.


Cindy was talking about general tricorn class battleplates, those are triangular in shape. Let's say she was hyperbolic on her comment but it transmitted what she wanted to say: that short range plasma gun is so OP that it can deal serious damage to a battleplate.

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