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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:52 pm 
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It seems that our little shiplord has just found how inefficient his converted freighter is as a warship. It can carry over 1,000 missiles but can only fire 16 per minute, which against Cynthetic Certainty, or any other warship, is obviously not enough rate of fire.

Also, it seems the UPA flagship is about to entertain visitors.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:33 pm 
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It probably seems like a decent ship on paper. It has a ton of missiles so it can put out a missile swarm for an alpha strike. And then keep up continuous fire a long time afterwards. If you're faster or have better sensors than your opponent it works.

If your not, then you're going to get smashed.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:52 am 
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Seriously not enough dakka.

For a combat ship captain to be that unaware of the ship's combat capability -- roughly 4 seconds per missile is a slow but steady stream, and an hour of firepower is 50 minutes more than needed in almost all cases -- is seriously incompetent.

Shipthief, I think he was called? Makes sense -- probably has no clue what the ship can do. Learning about an hour too late.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:20 am 
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But......

The shiplord DID have a missile fleet on hand, pre-launched.

It was just disabled by ECM or jamming.

If the shiplord had ordered all missiles pre-fired, then he'd have absolutely no missiles to fire now.

I don't see anything wrong with keeping a decent missile reserve, though he probably might not have wanted quite so many left over.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:30 am 
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This entire situation sounds like bringing flintlock musket to a tank fight.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:27 am 
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To be fair, bringing a Battleplate class ship to a fight with the Toughs is just asking for it to be destroyed. You needed two minimum, and the Toughs have upgraded since those days.

Perhaps it is only Kaff that is getting that credit, or the UNS propaganda machine has been doing a great job.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:29 am 
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Reaver225 wrote:
But......

The shiplord DID have a missile fleet on hand, pre-launched.

It was just disabled by ECM or jamming.

If the shiplord had ordered all missiles pre-fired, then he'd have absolutely no missiles to fire now.

I don't see anything wrong with keeping a decent missile reserve, though he probably might not have wanted quite so many left over.


Yep, given his forces and initial assumptions I'm not seeing that there's any mistake in his initial deployment, he deployed a swarm of missiles, he held a reserve, he had his warships try to engage when the swarm didn't work.

But he really should know that he can't launch fast enough to be tactically useful.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:58 pm 
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Doug Lampert wrote:
But he really should know that he can't launch fast enough to be tactically useful.

Shiplord Srabben brought a knife to a gun-fight. The failure in his case was not in the knife that he brought--which was adequate for the "Bully the unarmed immigrants" things he had been doing. But he was not prepared to face actual military-quality forces. The failure was intelligence-based (and you can look at the word "intelligence" in both its military and its common-sense meanings).

The other phrase here that works is "Srabben's bulldog mouth got his kitty-cat ass in trouble."

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:10 pm 
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No pussy-footing around here.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:38 pm 
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I feel bad for anyone who lost in combat to these clowns. I think sneak attacks on targets not designed to be in a battle was the order of the day.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:43 pm 
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Black Sheep wrote:
Doug Lampert wrote:
But he really should know that he can't launch fast enough to be tactically useful.

Shiplord Srabben brought a knife to a gun-fight. The failure in his case was not in the knife that he brought--which was adequate for the "Bully the unarmed immigrants" things he had been doing. But he was not prepared to face actual military-quality forces. The failure was intelligence-based (and you can look at the word "intelligence" in both its military and its common-sense meanings).

The other phrase here that works is "Srabben's bulldog mouth got his kitty-cat ass in trouble."


I disagree on Shiplord Srabben's common sense intelligence. He knowingly was going to engage a Dragon class warship that even without its main gun can outperform his repurposed freighter. Putting guns on a ship does not make it a warship, at best it is a gunship. He stupidly believe that because is ship is big and it has thousands of missiles, it is a contender against a true warship.
In other words, he is using a pickup truck with a heavy machine gun against a tank.

So, his first sin of stupidity is not knowing the enemy's capabilities. His second one is not knowing his own capabilities. The third is engaging unknown forces not knowing if he was able to deal with them.

I'm afraid that Shiplord's Srabben knowledge come from watching too many movies about naval warfare.

Yes, he was smart enough to pre-deploy a missile swarm and yet he was ignorant about EW and how ECM and jamming could render his missile swarm useless and thus he does not have ECCM and counter jamming measures. And he still does not know why his missile swarm does not respond. So, his only answer is to close with the enemy and "empty the missiles bays" aboard a ship that cannot do that. His subordinate in the "Fangstorm" grasped at once that they were outmatched and decided the wisest course of action: to get the hell out of there.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:46 pm 
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ExenTrik wrote:
I feel bad for anyone who lost in combat to these clowns. I think sneak attacks on targets not designed to be in a battle was the order of the day.


He probably only engaged unarmed vessels or other "technicals" ships.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:27 pm 
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Zeus67 wrote:
I disagree on Shiplord Srabben's common sense intelligence.

I may not have expressed myself clearly, and if not, I apologize, but I completely agree with you. Srabben is a classic case of Dunning=Kruger in action, and is too damn stupid to realize how damn stupid he is. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:02 pm 
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Zeus67 wrote:
Black Sheep wrote:
Doug Lampert wrote:
But he really should know that he can't launch fast enough to be tactically useful.

Shiplord Srabben brought a knife to a gun-fight. The failure in his case was not in the knife that he brought--which was adequate for the "Bully the unarmed immigrants" things he had been doing. But he was not prepared to face actual military-quality forces. The failure was intelligence-based (and you can look at the word "intelligence" in both its military and its common-sense meanings).

The other phrase here that works is "Srabben's bulldog mouth got his kitty-cat ass in trouble."


I disagree on Shiplord Srabben's common sense intelligence. He knowingly was going to engage a Dragon class warship that even without its main gun can outperform his repurposed freighter. Putting guns on a ship does not make it a warship, at best it is a gunship. He stupidly believe that because is ship is big and it has thousands of missiles, it is a contender against a true warship.
In other words, he is using a pickup truck with a heavy machine gun against a tank.


Actually per the classification table a regular dragon class cruiser would be outgunned and outmassed by his flagship. Of course regular dragon classes don't have giant guns, which you can clearly see in his intelligence hologram.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:38 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
Zeus67 wrote:
Black Sheep wrote:
Shiplord Srabben brought a knife to a gun-fight. The failure in his case was not in the knife that he brought--which was adequate for the "Bully the unarmed immigrants" things he had been doing. But he was not prepared to face actual military-quality forces. The failure was intelligence-based (and you can look at the word "intelligence" in both its military and its common-sense meanings).

The other phrase here that works is "Srabben's bulldog mouth got his kitty-cat ass in trouble."


I disagree on Shiplord Srabben's common sense intelligence. He knowingly was going to engage a Dragon class warship that even without its main gun can outperform his repurposed freighter. Putting guns on a ship does not make it a warship, at best it is a gunship. He stupidly believe that because is ship is big and it has thousands of missiles, it is a contender against a true warship.
In other words, he is using a pickup truck with a heavy machine gun against a tank.


Actually per the classification table a regular dragon class cruiser would be outgunned and outmassed by his flagship. Of course regular dragon classes don't have giant guns, which you can clearly see in his intelligence hologram.


If it was regular Dragon, that gun would never come into play anyway, because that gun is an equivalent of bringing sword to a gunfight: you have a massive advantage over any shmuck who brought knife by mistake, but you are hopelessly outmatched in ranged combat anyway.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:49 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
Actually per the classification table a regular dragon class cruiser would be outgunned and outmassed by his flagship. Of course regular dragon classes don't have giant guns, which you can clearly see in his intelligence hologram.

Outgunned and outmassed probably, but the Dragon is probably moire nimble and have better protection and thus could harry and even cause a lot of damage to the converted freighter. Destroyers can and have sunk/damaged larger ships like cruisers and even battleships and yet they are hopelessly outgunned and outmassed by them.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:54 pm 
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Zeus67 wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
Actually per the classification table a regular dragon class cruiser would be outgunned and outmassed by his flagship. Of course regular dragon classes don't have giant guns, which you can clearly see in his intelligence hologram.

Outgunned and outmassed probably, but the Dragon is probably moire nimble and have better protection and thus could harry and even cause a lot of damage to the converted freighter. Destroyers can and have sunk/damaged larger ships like cruisers and even battleships and yet they are hopelessly outgunned and outmassed by them.


That is true pretty much only because of torpedoes, so it doesn't apply here.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:56 pm 
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Zeus67 wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
Actually per the classification table a regular dragon class cruiser would be outgunned and outmassed by his flagship. Of course regular dragon classes don't have giant guns, which you can clearly see in his intelligence hologram.

Outgunned and outmassed probably, but the Dragon is probably moire nimble and have better protection and thus could harry and even cause a lot of damage to the converted freighter. Destroyers can and have sunk/damaged larger ships like cruisers and even battleships and yet they are hopelessly outgunned and outmassed by them.


That's making an assumption based on vehicles in an atmosphere and a gravity well. In outer space the faster more maneuverable ship is going to be the one with the bigger engine to mass ratio. And since power for annie plants is exponential based on volume that's almost always going to be the larger ship.

Specifically though the classification table would be completely worthless, as opposed to just kind of vague, if ships that were a higher rating couldn't reliably kill ships with a lower rating. The closest to this case that is mentioned is that the CoF destroyer, which is rated at V7, was historically most often destroyed by dragon cruisers, but it took entire packs of them to do it.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:11 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
Zeus67 wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
Actually per the classification table a regular dragon class cruiser would be outgunned and outmassed by his flagship. Of course regular dragon classes don't have giant guns, which you can clearly see in his intelligence hologram.

Outgunned and outmassed probably, but the Dragon is probably moire nimble and have better protection and thus could harry and even cause a lot of damage to the converted freighter. Destroyers can and have sunk/damaged larger ships like cruisers and even battleships and yet they are hopelessly outgunned and outmassed by them.


That's making an assumption based on vehicles in an atmosphere and a gravity well. In outer space the faster more maneuverable ship is going to be the one with the bigger engine to mass ratio. And since power for annie plants is exponential based on volume that's almost always going to be the larger ship.

Specifically though the classification table would be completely worthless, as opposed to just kind of vague, if ships that were a higher rating couldn't reliably kill ships with a lower rating. The closest to this case that is mentioned is that the CoF destroyer, which is rated at V7, was historically most often destroyed by dragon cruisers, but it took entire packs of them to do it.


Oh. I am aware of the annie plant volume vs ship volume. Look at both ships. The freighter has two small annie plants for its bulk, while the dragon has a single one that is probably 50% of total ship mass. So in this case the dragon has more power available than the freighter. All purposely designed and built warships have big annie plants, comprising at least 30% of total ship mass, if not more. An O'benn's superfortress annie plant is easily 40% total ship mass. Petey's capital ships have annie plants that are nearly 80% of ship mass. So the freighter is outclassed in available power alone.

Against another warship that outmasses or outguns it, a dragon cruiser will need to work with a pack. Against a "technical" ship. A converted freighter that probably has not only guns but soldered on armor and some after market shields along with a missile launcher or two with a big hold full of missiles that add more dead weight, it is more than a match.

In this specific case, just the dragon's EW package will probably negate a lot of the freighter's targeting capability requiring it to get closer to its intended target while the dragon can attack it from beyond the freighter's effective weapons range.

We are seeing this in action, the freighter is shooting at Cyntethic Certainity and missing, so Shiplord Srabben orders a Macross Missile Massacre, which is probably the only thing that can work, but it is the one thing his ship cannot deliver.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:18 pm 
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Zeus67 wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
Zeus67 wrote:
Outgunned and outmassed probably, but the Dragon is probably moire nimble and have better protection and thus could harry and even cause a lot of damage to the converted freighter. Destroyers can and have sunk/damaged larger ships like cruisers and even battleships and yet they are hopelessly outgunned and outmassed by them.


That's making an assumption based on vehicles in an atmosphere and a gravity well. In outer space the faster more maneuverable ship is going to be the one with the bigger engine to mass ratio. And since power for annie plants is exponential based on volume that's almost always going to be the larger ship.

Specifically though the classification table would be completely worthless, as opposed to just kind of vague, if ships that were a higher rating couldn't reliably kill ships with a lower rating. The closest to this case that is mentioned is that the CoF destroyer, which is rated at V7, was historically most often destroyed by dragon cruisers, but it took entire packs of them to do it.


Oh. I am aware of the annie plant volume vs ship volume. Look at both ships. The freighter has two small annie plants for its bulk, while the dragon has a single one that is probably 50% of total ship mass. So in this case the dragon has more power available than the freighter.

Against another warship that outmasses or outguns it, a dragon cruiser will need to work with a pack. Against a "technical" ship. A converted freighter that probably has not only guns but soldered on armor and some after market shields along with a missile launcher or two with a big hold full of missiles that add more dead weight, it is more than a match.

In this specific case, just the dragon's EW package will probably negate a lot of the freighter's targeting capability requiring it to get closer to its intended target while the dragon can attack it from beyond the freighter's effective weapons range.

We are seeing this in action, the freighter is shooting at the Cyntethic Certainity and missing, so Shiplord Srabben orders a Macross Missile Massacre, which is probably the only thing that can work, but it is the one thing his ship cannot deliver.


The ship which is bailing out was shooting at Breath Weapon. That's why they are bailing out - they realised that it's freighter-sized (they called it sack-hull freighter) but moves like a warship. Instead of following suit, Srabben decided to lash out at what we know is a weakest target, but he most likely still considers it to the the only real threat.

EDIT: Regular Dragon is not a particularly powerful ship. If Toughs really had Dragon, repair ship and sack-hull freighter as Srabben thinks, the UPA would win, (here I assume that Electronic Warfare capability comes from Maxim, as IIRC it's designated support frigate). If Toughs had repair ship, sack-hull freighter (whatever sack-hull actually means) and their own custom Dragon, it would we way too fair fight for Kaff's taste because bulk of Cynthetic Certainity classification comes from short range weapon which wouldn't play role here: either other upgrades and Kaff's command take out UPA before main gun is brought in range or UPA takes them out.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:25 pm 
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M[i]ech wrote:
The ship which is bailing out was shooting at Breath Weapon. That's why they are bailing out - they realised that it's freighter-sized (they called it sack-hull freighter) but moves like a warship. Instead of following suit, Srabben decided to lash out at what we know is a weakest target, but he most likely still considers it to the the only real threat.


Srabben is fighting the weakest target in the fleet, true. And he is doing zero damage for all his troubles. By this time a more capable captain would have started to question his initial assessment about how weak is that small warship, and probably come to the conclusion that it is better to open the range between them and see if there is another way to get at it or perhaps if running away is required.

Right now CC is just playing bait while the boarding party is approaching undetected.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:33 pm 
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Zeus67 wrote:
M[i]ech wrote:
The ship which is bailing out was shooting at Breath Weapon. That's why they are bailing out - they realised that it's freighter-sized (they called it sack-hull freighter) but moves like a warship. Instead of following suit, Srabben decided to lash out at what we know is a weakest target, but he most likely still considers it to the the only real threat.


Srabben is fighting the weakest target in the fleet, true. And he is doing zero damage for all his troubles. By this time a more capable captain would have started to question his initial assessment about how weak is that small warship, and probably come to the conclusion that it is better to open the range between them and see if there is another way to get at it or perhaps if running away is required.

Right now CC is just playing bait while the boarding party is approaching undetected.


I edited my previous post while you were replying, I will repeat what I think is most important edit: if EW capability comes from Maxim, CC really coudldn't do that, because it would have to fight off missile swarm.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:48 pm 
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M[i]ech wrote:
Zeus67 wrote:
M[i]ech wrote:
The ship which is bailing out was shooting at Breath Weapon. That's why they are bailing out - they realised that it's freighter-sized (they called it sack-hull freighter) but moves like a warship. Instead of following suit, Srabben decided to lash out at what we know is a weakest target, but he most likely still considers it to the the only real threat.


Srabben is fighting the weakest target in the fleet, true. And he is doing zero damage for all his troubles. By this time a more capable captain would have started to question his initial assessment about how weak is that small warship, and probably come to the conclusion that it is better to open the range between them and see if there is another way to get at it or perhaps if running away is required.

Right now CC is just playing bait while the boarding party is approaching undetected.


I edited my previous post while you were replying, I will repeat what I think is most important edit: if EW capability comes from Maxim, CC really coudldn't do that, because it would have to fight off missile swarm.


I agree. Srabben missile swarm is quite powerful, but that is why EW was invented. AFAIK, CC is just a normal Dragon cruiser with its main gun installed. Since the main gun is so short range, then it probably means that the Dragon was expected to get into knife-fighting range and then fire. To do that, it should have some kind of force multiplier that would allow it to survive such engagement. If not shields, then probably a very robust EW system. In other words the Dragon class cruiser was designed to be a close quarters fighter that would nimbly evade all enemy fire before gutting them with their big gun. Since they never got the gun, they had to adopt other tactics like attacking in wolf packs.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:55 pm 
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M[i]ech wrote:
EDIT: Regular Dragon is not a particularly powerful ship. If Toughs really had Dragon, repair ship and sack-hull freighter as Srabben thinks, the UPA would win, (here I assume that Electronic Warfare capability comes from Maxim, as IIRC it's designated support frigate). If Toughs had repair ship, sack-hull freighter (whatever sack-hull actually means)

I presume it means that's where they keep their balls of steel :)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:30 pm 
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Zeus67 wrote:
M[i]ech wrote:
Zeus67 wrote:
Srabben is fighting the weakest target in the fleet, true. And he is doing zero damage for all his troubles. By this time a more capable captain would have started to question his initial assessment about how weak is that small warship, and probably come to the conclusion that it is better to open the range between them and see if there is another way to get at it or perhaps if running away is required.

Right now CC is just playing bait while the boarding party is approaching undetected.


I edited my previous post while you were replying, I will repeat what I think is most important edit: if EW capability comes from Maxim, CC really coudldn't do that, because it would have to fight off missile swarm.


I agree. Srabben missile swarm is quite powerful, but that is why EW was invented. AFAIK, CC is just a normal Dragon cruiser with its main gun installed. Since the main gun is so short range, then it probably means that the Dragon was expected to get into knife-fighting range and then fire. To do that, it should have some kind of force multiplier that would allow it to survive such engagement. If not shields, then probably a very robust EW system. In other words the Dragon class cruiser was designed to be a close quarters fighter that would nimbly evade all enemy fire before gutting them with their big gun. Since they never got the gun, they had to adopt other tactics like attacking in wolf packs.


They scrapped the gun because they realised that it doesn't actually work. Kaff certainly was nonplussed after learning how it works.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:32 pm 
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Black Sheep wrote:
The other phrase here that works is "Srabben's bulldog mouth got his kitty-cat ass in trouble."

Oh my... that's purrfect.



M[i]ech wrote:
They scrapped the gun because they realised that it doesn't actually work. Kaff certainly was nonplussed after learning how it works.

False. It was scrapped because it worked as advertised. Unfortunately the top brass didn't like the advertisement:

"The best knife to bring to a gun fight!"


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:50 pm 
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evileeyore wrote:
M[i]ech wrote:
They scrapped the gun because they realised that it doesn't actually work. Kaff certainly was nonplussed after learning how it works.

False. It was scrapped because it worked as advertised. Unfortunately the top brass didn't like the advertisement:

"The best knife to bring to a gun fight!"


Wrong. Tagon described it as "gun you bring to a knife fight", which clearly states that while it's technically a gun, it's no better than knife, and as such, in STS combat not very useful.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:51 pm 
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evileeyore wrote:
M[i]ech wrote:
They scrapped the gun because they realised that it doesn't actually work. Kaff certainly was nonplussed after learning how it works.

False. It was scrapped because it worked as advertised. Unfortunately the top brass didn't like the advertisement:

"The best knife to bring to a gun fight!"


^ this. The brass did not want a gun that required the ship to close into knife fighting range.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:00 pm 
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M[i]ech wrote:
They scrapped the gun because they realised that it doesn't actually work. Kaff certainly was nonplussed after learning how it works.


Actually they scrapped the gun due to budget cuts. The gun works very well. The problem is that you have to be very close for it to be effective. That's why Kaff said "A gun you bring to a knife fight". In any case that does not negate the fact that the Dragon class cruiser is a knife fighter, it is just that the bean counters took away the big knife (falchion more likely).

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:03 pm 
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Zeus67 wrote:
M[i]ech wrote:
They scrapped the gun because they realised that it doesn't actually work. Kaff certainly was nonplussed after learning how it works.


Actually they scrapped the gun due to budget cuts. The gun works very well. The problem is that you have to be very close for it to be effective. That's why Kaff said "A gun you bring to a knife fight". In any case that does not negate the fact that the Dragon class cruiser is a knife fighter, it is just that the bean counters took away the big knife (falchion more likely).


There is a difference between technically working and actually working. Weapon which technically works but you are dead before you have a chance to actually use it doesn't actually work at all and as such is utter waste of pretty much everything.


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