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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:37 pm 
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What loss?

They aren't dead, just rather inconvenienced.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:09 pm 
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They are all very much dead.

Inconvenience is irrelevant, their problems are over.

Copies can be made; with some loss of fidelity. That doesn't change the fact that they are dead. The copies may be treated the same as the previous person or not. If they are, it's just a convenient illusion.

It should also be noted that the process depends on other people surviving long enough to make a copy of you.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:12 pm 
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evileeyore wrote:
What loss?

They aren't dead, just rather inconvenienced.


They subscribe to the idea that their loved ones and friends are Dead, but they can bring back a Copy. They have reason to grieve.
Especially the preacher, who presumably believes in an afterlife, and thus is separated from HIS wife.

I leave you with these two links.
http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/463a8c7f7cc4f

http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/47bcf671e4c7e

The toughs have, thus far, subscribed to the first one.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:56 pm 
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And I fundamentally disagree with this view.

I get the Rev having a problem... he's deluded by his faith. But the rest of the Toughs? I expect better of them.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:28 am 
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evileeyore wrote:
And I fundamentally disagree with this view.

I get the Rev having a problem... he's deluded by his faith. But the rest of the Toughs? I expect better of them.


Yeah, but growing a new body takes what, two months? and it's really inconvenient right now.

They just lost their best doctor, at the beginning of a mass casualty event. They lost Kevin, in the middle of a highly dangerous physics puzzle. They lost Ennesby, who was tutoring everyone during a tricky legal mess. They lost dozens of friends and colleagues, who won't remember the next two months worth of adventures, and won't be able to offer support DURING those events. Elf lost the ability to cry on Kevin's shoulder for the next two months, and then it will probably take her ANOTHER two months to teach him everything cry-worthy that he missed during the previous two.

That's SAD. Not as sad as these people being PERMANENTLY dead, but it's REALLY inconvenient, and dangerous, and scary, and lonely.

I can understand grief counseling, under the circumstances. The fact that ghosts of these people will return in two months just makes it really DIFFICULT grief counseling. The Reverend has his work cut out for him.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:36 am 
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Krennson wrote:
evileeyore wrote:
And I fundamentally disagree with this view.

I get the Rev having a problem... he's deluded by his faith. But the rest of the Toughs? I expect better of them.


Yeah, but growing a new body takes what, two months? and it's really inconvenient right now.

They just lost their best doctor, at the beginning of a mass casualty event. They lost Kevin, in the middle of a highly dangerous physics puzzle. They lost Ennesby, who was tutoring everyone during a tricky legal mess. They lost dozens of friends and colleagues, who won't remember the next two months worth of adventures, and won't be able to offer support DURING those events. Elf lost the ability to cry on Kevin's shoulder for the next two months, and then it will probably take her ANOTHER two months to teach him everything cry-worthy that he missed during the previous two.

That's SAD. Not as sad as these people being PERMANENTLY dead, but it's REALLY inconvenient, and dangerous, and scary, and lonely.

I can understand grief counseling, under the circumstances. The fact that ghosts of these people will return in two months just makes it really DIFFICULT grief counseling. The Reverend has his work cut out for him.


Yes, I just want to add my own emphasis to this. People get sad when terrible things happen to their loved ones. People get sad at the prospect of terrible things happening to their loved ones. Even if you don't consider all these people to be dead they at minimum just did the equivalent of dropping into a coma for a few months. Even after they come back not only will they have missed time, but we know there is a possibility of memory loss so they might lose even more. And that's on top of the question of when did all these people last make their backups.

And from an operational stand point the Toughs just lost one third of their ships with most of their support personnel. That is a major loss, and they would be feeling significant stress just from that.

Just go back a few strips to where Peri finds out that Ennesby is gone. Whether or not Ennesby comes back is almost beside the point. She needs him right now, and without him she is under a hugely increased amount of stress. And for that matter Ennesby might not even be gone all that long since he doesn't really need a body.

It's easy for us to be objective and think "Oh they'll be back soon enough." But from the character's perspective this is a heavy blow. And that's assuming that they've all fully internalized the fact that people come back from the dead now. When all their life experience prior to Red-Reo says they don't.

In time they probably will come to take the perspective that death is just a minor inconvenience. Especially since they're now immortal and have plenty of time to get used to it. And time to get to the point that a few months is trivial. The Allstar seems to view it that way, but they've had millions of years to think about it. For the rest of galactic society though it's still a pretty big deal.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:22 am 
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Sean wrote:

The first raises the obvious issue: If life and identity are a matter of continuous conscious experience, this means that when you go to sleep, you die, just like a process on a computer that is shut down, even if the work is saved and reloaded afterwards. As someone with extreme insomnia who has watched others undergo this process repeatedly while remaining the same, I actually believe this is true: When people are shut down and rebooted in this way, they do not come back quite the same. It's "close enough", much in the same way your saved document is close enough, but consciousness is more than just the data: It's the metadata, the workflow. Where your cursor is, where the windows are positioned, etc. When you shut down the computer and reload the application and saved data, this is lost. It's not the same. People who are rebooted, are not the same. The continuity is lost.

Most people, of course, won't ever really experience the continuity of others, because they, themselves, are not continuous. They've only been alive a day or so, and tend to die around the same time everyone else they know does. But those of us who don't sleep, and thus remain continuous, we notice.

What does this mean? Well, it means that, although our own experience operates much like #1, with the exception that those who sleep tend to gloss over the part where they DIE so they can sleep at night, how we relate to others is more or less entirely #2: If you are cloned-and-killed, as far as I'm concerned, the new you is close enough, just as if you were rebooted. If you are duplicated and NOT killed, as far as I'm concerned, both of you are equally you to me until I am made aware of the fact that you have diverged and should now be regarded as separate, similar entities, rather than one entity that has assumed the skin of the previous. As my people often say, "If a tree falls on a mime in a forest and nobody sees, does anybody care?".


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:10 am 
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Quote:
I get the Rev having a problem... he's deluded by his faith. But the rest of the Toughs? I expect better of them.



What's with the self righteous moral indignation here?

(I don't mean it as harshly as I sound, we're arguing over fictional characters and their continuity of self, after all)

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:11 am 
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I do wonder how many would refuse RED-REO because of moral/religious objections.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:40 pm 
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Rev's issue could stem from author wanting to explore possible change in things.

Rev may not believe that the woman who is essentially a clone of his wife is same person.

We didn't see Rev reaction to Captain Tagon rebirth, so we don't know where story will go with this.

So we maybe seeing a story how Rev and newly resurrected wife get along. If they remain a thing. Faith isn't fun all the time, depends on how forward thinking Rev is within his new hip religion.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:56 pm 
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Time to turn down the gain on the damage sensors


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:31 pm 
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Wrangler wrote:
Rev's issue could stem from author wanting to explore possible change in things.

Rev may not believe that the woman who is essentially a clone of his wife is same person.

We didn't see Rev reaction to Captain Tagon rebirth, so we don't know where story will go with this.

So we maybe seeing a story how Rev and newly resurrected wife get along. If they remain a thing. Faith isn't fun all the time, depends on how forward thinking Rev is within his new hip religion.


I can see the Rev having that kind of trouble with his newly restored wife, especially after having a couple of months to grieve. He may decide that "close enough" is simply not good enough, and then he and New!Bunni may go their separate ways. He also seems like the type to refuse RED-REO on religious grounds, so if he dies, he's most likely gone for good.

Of course, we won't know for sure until it happens; it's still possible that they managed a last-minute escape from the Maxim 39, so far things have been happening too fast (despite it being stretched out over several days) for us to really see what happened besides the ship being Long Gunned.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:31 pm 
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macnut wrote:
Wrangler wrote:
Rev's issue could stem from author wanting to explore possible change in things.

Rev may not believe that the woman who is essentially a clone of his wife is same person.

We didn't see Rev reaction to Captain Tagon rebirth, so we don't know where story will go with this.

So we maybe seeing a story how Rev and newly resurrected wife get along. If they remain a thing. Faith isn't fun all the time, depends on how forward thinking Rev is within his new hip religion.


I can see the Rev having that kind of trouble with his newly restored wife, especially after having a couple of months to grieve. He may decide that "close enough" is simply not good enough, and then he and New!Bunni may go their separate ways. He also seems like the type to refuse RED-REO on religious grounds, so if he dies, he's most likely gone for good.

Of course, we won't know for sure until it happens; it's still possible that they managed a last-minute escape from the Maxim 39, so far things have been happening too fast (despite it being stretched out over several days) for us to really see what happened besides the ship being Long Gunned.


I think they're dead and here's why.
Between his last backup, and the ship getting blown up, Kevyn had an epiphany. The absence of this new additude toward his wife will cause dramatic tension. Ergo, Kevyn was probably killed back to this morning, when he'd blithely tell his wife that Any of her grunts could have done the job she did just as well and so she should have stayed in the rear where it was "safe".

On the issue of the Daysun Tingo shipwrights. Those bots were in "continuous contact", so the argument about whether or not a backup is the original is moot. We have, much more recently, Bunni crying over a dead Schlock, even as a restored Schlock left her med bay. We have Schlock, himself, defining older Schlock as dead, both in passing, and when he "grew a conscience". We have several people making sure that Kaff Tagon was well aware that he wasn't the original. That Kaff died and he was a welcome replacement. We have Kaff Tagon describing his new unkillable state as "a little bit of immortality". Whatever YOUR beliefs on the subject of identity and the afterlife, the human crew have pretty much been stated to follow the continuity model theory of identity.
Also, remember that this crew DOES employ a chaplain. Whatever the beliefs of individual crew members, as a whole, religion has not disappeared from the human experience.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:09 pm 
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Also note that while the reverend is religious we don't actually know much about what he practices. It seems to be based on Christianity, but there are other things mixed in and it's had a thousand years to evolve past modern practices.

We do know however that he has talked about the clone continuity problem before. In this case the reverend falls under the category of "my friends" in regards to the doctor. So he probably isn't going to leave her or anything. But he does certainly believe that the people who died actually died. And he's been thinking about this for longer than pretty much anyone else in the comic.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:41 pm 
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Okay there we go. Definitive proof that the reverend does in fact believe his wife is coming back. He is however concerned about the lost time. Which is a valid concern whether you believe in the continuity of consciousness or not.

Also this answers the question of how often they make their backups. It's not entirely clear how much time passed since they captured the pirates though. So we don't know if Kevyn will or won't remember his epiphany.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:46 pm 
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Fishman wrote:
Sean wrote:

The first raises the obvious issue: If life and identity are a matter of continuous conscious experience, this means that when you go to sleep, you die, just like a process on a computer that is shut down, even if the work is saved and reloaded afterwards. As someone with extreme insomnia who has watched others undergo this process repeatedly while remaining the same, I actually believe this is true: When people are shut down and rebooted in this way, they do not come back quite the same. It's "close enough", much in the same way your saved document is close enough, but consciousness is more than just the data: It's the metadata, the workflow. Where your cursor is, where the windows are positioned, etc. When you shut down the computer and reload the application and saved data, this is lost. It's not the same. People who are rebooted, are not the same. The continuity is lost.

Most people, of course, won't ever really experience the continuity of others, because they, themselves, are not continuous. They've only been alive a day or so, and tend to die around the same time everyone else they know does. But those of us who don't sleep, and thus remain continuous, we notice.

What does this mean? Well, it means that, although our own experience operates much like #1, with the exception that those who sleep tend to gloss over the part where they DIE so they can sleep at night, how we relate to others is more or less entirely #2: If you are cloned-and-killed, as far as I'm concerned, the new you is close enough, just as if you were rebooted. If you are duplicated and NOT killed, as far as I'm concerned, both of you are equally you to me until I am made aware of the fact that you have diverged and should now be regarded as separate, similar entities, rather than one entity that has assumed the skin of the previous. As my people often say, "If a tree falls on a mime in a forest and nobody sees, does anybody care?".


You do realise that sleeping doesn't shut down the brain? Day's experiences are subconsciously filed, processed, catalogued and partially relived. Sleeping doesn't break continuity at all. In fact, brain doesn't ever shut down until you die, actually you die when it shuts down. This is why first aid needs to be administered quickly in case of loss of pulse or breathing, otherwise after few minutes lack of oxygen will start shutting down brain. All other organs can spend hours without air, because they can stay nearly inert for extended periods of time, brain can not as it's always on.

I already heard "when you sleep you die" reasoning. It always annoys me.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:11 pm 
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M[i]ech wrote:
Fishman wrote:
Sean wrote:

The first raises the obvious issue: If life and identity are a matter of continuous conscious experience, this means that when you go to sleep, you die, just like a process on a computer that is shut down, even if the work is saved and reloaded afterwards. As someone with extreme insomnia who has watched others undergo this process repeatedly while remaining the same, I actually believe this is true: When people are shut down and rebooted in this way, they do not come back quite the same. It's "close enough", much in the same way your saved document is close enough, but consciousness is more than just the data: It's the metadata, the workflow. Where your cursor is, where the windows are positioned, etc. When you shut down the computer and reload the application and saved data, this is lost. It's not the same. People who are rebooted, are not the same. The continuity is lost.

Most people, of course, won't ever really experience the continuity of others, because they, themselves, are not continuous. They've only been alive a day or so, and tend to die around the same time everyone else they know does. But those of us who don't sleep, and thus remain continuous, we notice.

What does this mean? Well, it means that, although our own experience operates much like #1, with the exception that those who sleep tend to gloss over the part where they DIE so they can sleep at night, how we relate to others is more or less entirely #2: If you are cloned-and-killed, as far as I'm concerned, the new you is close enough, just as if you were rebooted. If you are duplicated and NOT killed, as far as I'm concerned, both of you are equally you to me until I am made aware of the fact that you have diverged and should now be regarded as separate, similar entities, rather than one entity that has assumed the skin of the previous. As my people often say, "If a tree falls on a mime in a forest and nobody sees, does anybody care?".


You do realise that sleeping doesn't shut down the brain? Day's experiences are subconsciously filed, processed, catalogued and partially relived. Sleeping doesn't break continuity at all. In fact, brain doesn't ever shut down until you die, actually you die when it shuts down. This is why first aid needs to be administered quickly in case of loss of pulse or breathing, otherwise after few minutes lack of oxygen will start shutting down brain. All other organs can spend hours without air, because they can stay nearly inert for extended periods of time, brain can not as it's always on.

I already heard "when you sleep you die" reasoning. It always annoys me.


I thought of posting this myself because the "You die when you sleep argument" annoys me too. But then I read his second paragraph. I don't know what exactly he is going for here, but it's clearly not a serious argument.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:12 pm 
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M[i]ech wrote:
Fishman wrote:
Sean wrote:

The first raises the obvious issue: If life and identity are a matter of continuous conscious experience, this means that when you go to sleep, you die, just like a process on a computer that is shut down, even if the work is saved and reloaded afterwards. As someone with extreme insomnia who has watched others undergo this process repeatedly while remaining the same, I actually believe this is true: When people are shut down and rebooted in this way, they do not come back quite the same. It's "close enough", much in the same way your saved document is close enough, but consciousness is more than just the data: It's the metadata, the workflow. Where your cursor is, where the windows are positioned, etc. When you shut down the computer and reload the application and saved data, this is lost. It's not the same. People who are rebooted, are not the same. The continuity is lost.

Most people, of course, won't ever really experience the continuity of others, because they, themselves, are not continuous. They've only been alive a day or so, and tend to die around the same time everyone else they know does. But those of us who don't sleep, and thus remain continuous, we notice.

What does this mean? Well, it means that, although our own experience operates much like #1, with the exception that those who sleep tend to gloss over the part where they DIE so they can sleep at night, how we relate to others is more or less entirely #2: If you are cloned-and-killed, as far as I'm concerned, the new you is close enough, just as if you were rebooted. If you are duplicated and NOT killed, as far as I'm concerned, both of you are equally you to me until I am made aware of the fact that you have diverged and should now be regarded as separate, similar entities, rather than one entity that has assumed the skin of the previous. As my people often say, "If a tree falls on a mime in a forest and nobody sees, does anybody care?".


You do realise that sleeping doesn't shut down the brain? Day's experiences are subconsciously filed, processed, catalogued and partially relived. Sleeping doesn't break continuity at all. In fact, brain doesn't ever shut down until you die, actually you die when it shuts down. This is why first aid needs to be administered quickly in case of loss of pulse or breathing, otherwise after few minutes lack of oxygen will start shutting down brain. All other organs can spend hours without air, because they can stay nearly inert for extended periods of time, brain can not as it's always on.

I already heard "when you sleep you die" reasoning. It always annoys me.


It always annoys me when people try to use this as an argument against "Sleep you die" reasoning.

My toe is active while I sleep, too. The brain doesn't shut down, but it's certainly not running the same way that it normally does, and your stream of consciousness is interrupted. Arguing about whether the brain is "active" is completely missing the point.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:19 pm 
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Sleep is a lightly altered state of consciousness . . . nothing more, nothing less.

Anybody who has mastered the art of sleeping in a meeting or class knows that.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:11 am 
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If a change in the state of consciousness equates with death, then you die every time your neurons fire. In my view the gestalt which comprises "me" is not any one point of consciousness, but arises from the continuous changes and interplay of states of all the neurons and chemicals in my brain. Sleep alters this, but the process is still ongoing. If someone measured my brain while I was sleeping they would be able to trace my brain state from point to point in a continuous flow. Thus while my higher functions are not active all the time the "me" that wakes up is still the same "me" that went to sleep.

FreeFlier wrote:
Sleep is a lightly altered state of consciousness . . . nothing more, nothing less.

Anybody who has mastered the art of sleeping in a meeting or class knows that.

--FreeFlier


Also there is this. There are multiple types of sleep. Clearly not all of them result in a complete loss of consciousness. So at what point would someone who thinks sleeping equates to death say that they have died?

I mean does anyone honestly believe that sleeping equals death. I would think you'd have to practically be a saint to keep on going when you believe you die after less than a day. Mostly I see it used by people arguing against the continuity identity theory as counterpoint rather than an actual belief.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:15 am 
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JohnSmith wrote:

It always annoys me when people try to use this as an argument against "Sleep you die" reasoning.

My toe is active while I sleep, too. The brain doesn't shut down, but it's certainly not running the same way that it normally does, and your stream of consciousness is interrupted. Arguing about whether the brain is "active" is completely missing the point.

As a regular lucid dreamer, I take issue with your assertion that consciousness is interrupted.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:37 am 
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rleggett wrote:
What's with the self righteous moral indignation here?

What self righteousness? And there's nothing moral about my indignation.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:24 am 
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Arguing about sleep aside, 'losing time' while your body is regenerated is not particularly new in this setting - the entire company went through it in the very first Schlocktoberfest, and their biggest concern was their HMO rates going up.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:27 am 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
Also there is this. There are multiple types of sleep. Clearly not all of them result in a complete loss of consciousness. So at what point would someone who thinks sleeping equates to death say that they have died?
I would say it's the point at which the conscious process shuts down. Much like a computer, you can reboot it without physically shutting the entire machine off, but the process is still lost. When exactly this occurs is probably something that can be measured with neurological measuring equipment. Death, after all, may not be a singular event, but rather, a continuum of deadness like the Laz scale, ranging from "clearly alive" to "mostly dead" to "all dead".

Arcanestomper wrote:
I mean does anyone honestly believe that sleeping equals death. I would think you'd have to practically be a saint to keep on going when you believe you die after less than a day.
Not necessarily. I mean, after all, you REMEMBER all the previous events. The you that is currently running doesn't really have a firm sense of having died. The you that is remembers the you that was and everything that happened. You don't "feel" it. It's just natural to you.

But have you ever wondered why small children fear sleep? It's because their conscious memory is limited. They don't really have the reinforcing experience of having come back to life before. To them, going to sleep is still perceived as death. The cessation of consciousness remains a thing that they fear...and personally, I think they're right to do so.

When you stay awake the entire time and watch a single person cease to be and come back several times in succession, you realize the process is not perfect. That they come back different, changed. Admittedly, this change isn't necessarily for the worst: HumanOS is not exactly well designed and tends to develop issues when left continuously running for too long.

Arcanestomper wrote:
If a change in the state of consciousness equates with death, then you die every time your neurons fire. In my view the gestalt which comprises "me" is not any one point of consciousness, but arises from the continuous changes and interplay of states of all the neurons and chemicals in my brain. Sleep alters this, but the process is still ongoing. If someone measured my brain while I was sleeping they would be able to trace my brain state from point to point in a continuous flow. Thus while my higher functions are not active all the time the "me" that wakes up is still the same "me" that went to sleep.
Sure, but if you receive a lobotomy, we can also trace the process as you go from a functioning conscious person to a drooling vegetable. Has this process killed you, though, even though your lower level autonomous functions continue to operate, given that this process is not reversible or reparable in any way we presently know? Are you now dead, nothing more than a vegetable, like a crashed computer that can, at best, only be repaired by reformatting? Even if we regrow your brain, effectively replacing your CPU and memory cores, is it even you anymore? This is still a process from which we can trace continuity of activity, but clearly, the process is dead and gone, and even your save files are entirely missing. We had to reinstall everything. You're gone, and can't even remember being you anymore.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:24 am 
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When I was a child, I didn't want to go to sleep because there was Something Interesting I'd miss.
Mostly TV.

You say the HumanOS develops Issues when it's not allowed to defrag and optimize search on a daily basis. I'd tend to agree. Clearly someone who hasn't slept in several days or weeks is going to be running like a computer that was prevented from doing basic maintenance on its working space. One of the symptoms could even be a modified sense of martyrdom and some measure of Capgras delusion, but I only have one data-point to deduce that.

I don't hold that sleep is a cessation of itentity because my brain is still being me while my memory centers go haywire, (and generally don't save to long-term storage) and prefrontal cortext goes essentially off-line for a few hours.

When I lucid dream, I am still me in the dream. I can still trace my identity through the choices I make within the dream. They're not always the best choices, but they're still me making those decisions.

That said, sleep was once referred to as "the little death".


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:36 am 
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Fishman wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
Also there is this. There are multiple types of sleep. Clearly not all of them result in a complete loss of consciousness. So at what point would someone who thinks sleeping equates to death say that they have died?
I would say it's the point at which the conscious process shuts down. Much like a computer, you can reboot it without physically shutting the entire machine off, but the process is still lost. When exactly this occurs is probably something that can be measured with neurological measuring equipment. Death, after all, may not be a singular event, but rather, a continuum of deadness like the Laz scale, ranging from "clearly alive" to "mostly dead" to "all dead".

Right here.

This is the point of contention: You believe that the conscious process shuts down. I believe that it does not.

Fishman wrote:
. . . But have you ever wondered why small children fear sleep? . . .

My observation is not that most fear sleep, but that they're having fun and don't want to stop.

Fishman wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
If a change in the state of consciousness equates with death, then you die every time your neurons fire. In my view the gestalt which comprises "me" is not any one point of consciousness, but arises from the continuous changes and interplay of states of all the neurons and chemicals in my brain. Sleep alters this, but the process is still ongoing. If someone measured my brain while I was sleeping they would be able to trace my brain state from point to point in a continuous flow. Thus while my higher functions are not active all the time the "me" that wakes up is still the same "me" that went to sleep.
Sure, but if you receive a lobotomy, we can also trace the process as you go from a functioning conscious person to a drooling vegetable. Has this process killed you, though, even though your lower level autonomous functions continue to operate, given that this process is not reversible or reparable in any way we presently know? Are you now dead, nothing more than a vegetable, like a crashed computer that can, at best, only be repaired by reformatting? Even if we regrow your brain, effectively replacing your CPU and memory cores, is it even you anymore? This is still a process from which we can trace continuity of activity, but clearly, the process is dead and gone, and even your save files are entirely missing. We had to reinstall everything. You're gone, and can't even remember being you anymore.

Lobotomy is a really bad example . . . first, there are varying degrees of lobotomy and varying impacts.

Worse, there's a school of thought that consciousness remains, but locked inside the brain with little to no input or output.

If that thought doesn't horrify you . . .

--FreeFlier


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:19 am 
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I would consider "death" to be the permanent loss of information that constitutes that person's life. So a computer being shut down would not be death, unless it's an old server with a failed drive that can no longer be rebooted. Same thing with humans; we wake up the same person that we were before we slept, so we didn't temporarily die.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:47 am 
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FreeFlier wrote:
Lobotomy is a really bad example . . . first, there are varying degrees of lobotomy and varying impacts.


You're missing the forest for the trees there. Let's say experimental ablation instead. When do "you" die?

grahamf wrote:
I would consider "death" to be the permanent loss of information that constitutes that person's life. So a computer being shut down would not be death, unless it's an old server with a failed drive that can no longer be rebooted. Same thing with humans; we wake up the same person that we were before we slept, so we didn't temporarily die.


So nobody died on the Maxim and you have no particular input on the sleeping problem. Fair enough.

I don't understand why people think they remain "conscious" while asleep. At best is smells of wishful thinking. Are you a coherent, sapient organism during that time? People waking me up say "no." Lucid dreaming is the exception, yes - but then, lucid dreaming is defined by how odd it is to be making conscious decisions while dreaming.

Linguistics is hardly an authority, but... it's literally called being unconscious.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:06 am 
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JohnSmith wrote:
So nobody died on the Maxim and you have no particular input on the sleeping problem. Fair enough.

My input on the sleeping problem is that the sleeping problem is irrelevant - except if a stroke has occurred.

The problem the priest is having is that loss of data HAS occurred - about a day's worth, and that his wife has encountered a serous injury and he hasn't had a chance to prepare to be away from her for a month. If your wife was in a car accident and was rendered comatose, you'd be concerned even with a highly reputed doctor taking care of her and guaranteeing that she will wake up exactly as she did that morning.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:25 pm 
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We're not actually talking about the priest's problem though, we're talking about what constitutes death. And sure you lose data at night. I certainly don't remember the eight hours a day I spend in bed. I lose eight hours, she lost 24 - but I bet you'd have the same opinion of her loss if she'd only been 6 hours out of her backup.


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