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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:29 pm 
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evileeyore wrote:
And I fundamentally disagree with this view.

I get the Rev having a problem... he's deluded by his faith. But the rest of the Toughs? I expect better of them.


It's because it's new.

When the series started nannie bagging was old tech so when someone was essentially dead but there head was safe it was considered being wounded rather than a new copy.

Now for the first time Laz 2-5 deaths are just extreme stats of being wounded and for a time those who live through this change will see it as copies rather than the originals being brought back while those to be born and who live with this as just being normal will treat this just as everyone has always treated being nannie bagged.

It's a huge change in a very short period of time people need an adjustment period.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:42 pm 
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Fishman wrote:
When you stay awake the entire time and watch a single person cease to be and come back several times in succession, you realize the process is not perfect. That they come back different, changed. Admittedly, this change isn't necessarily for the worst: HumanOS is not exactly well designed and tends to develop issues when left continuously running for too long.


Or more likely that you went crazy because of sleep deprivation.

wiki wrote:
A 2001 study at the Chicago Medical Institute suggested that sleep deprivation may be linked to serious diseases, such as heart disease and mental illness including psychosis and bipolar disorder.[28] The link between sleep deprivation and psychosis was further documented in 2007 through a study at Harvard Medical School and the University of California at Berkeley. The study revealed, using MRI scans, that sleep deprivation causes the brain to become incapable of putting an emotional event into the proper perspective and incapable of making a controlled, suitable response to the event.[29]

The negative effects of sleep deprivation on alertness and cognitive performance suggest decreases in brain activity and function, primarily in the thalamus, a structure involved in alertness and attention, and in the prefrontal cortex, a region sub-serving alertness, attention, and higher-order cognitive processes.[30] This was the finding of an American study in 2000. Seventeen men in their 20s were tested. Sleep deprivation was progressive with measurements of glucose (absolute regional CMRglu), cognitive performance, alertness, mood, and subjective experiences collected after 0, 24, 48, and 72 h of sleep deprivation. Additional measures of alertness, cognitive performance, and mood were collected at fixed intervals. PET scans were used and attention was paid to the circadian rhythm of cognitive performance.[30]


I imagine that by staying awake for entire days without sleep you must have went pretty insane and more importantly, internalised your insanity so that it didn't go away when you finally got some sleep. I for one was never sleep deprived enough to fail to distinguish hallucinations from reality.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:26 pm 
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On the earlier links, Kevyn I think subscribes to 2. Even with the Gavins as they were, they clearly established different identities, and Kevyn prime is different from Retired Kevyn. They both originated from the same one, same as the gavins.

He's had so many past interrupted lives that he's used to it by now, I think. This latest hiccup is nothing more than a small bump in the road to him. A nice sleep.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:08 pm 
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NullDragon wrote:
On the earlier links, Kevyn I think subscribes to 2. Even with the Gavins as they were, they clearly established different identities, and Kevyn prime is different from Retired Kevyn. They both originated from the same one, same as the gavins.

He's had so many past interrupted lives that he's used to it by now, I think. This latest hiccup is nothing more than a small bump in the road to him. A nice sleep.

The gavs used a randomizer iirc, and !Kevyn had to find a new identity for himself because he had experinces originalKevyn did not and originalKevyn was still around to deal with his responsibilities.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:16 pm 
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grahamf wrote:
NullDragon wrote:
On the earlier links, Kevyn I think subscribes to 2. Even with the Gavins as they were, they clearly established different identities, and Kevyn prime is different from Retired Kevyn. They both originated from the same one, same as the gavins.

He's had so many past interrupted lives that he's used to it by now, I think. This latest hiccup is nothing more than a small bump in the road to him. A nice sleep.

The gavs used a randomizer iirc, and !Kevyn had to find a new identity for himself because he had experinces originalKevyn did not and originalKevyn was still around to deal with his responsibilities.


Some of the Gavs used a randomizer. We saw later Gavs who were perfectly happy with their Gav identities. I don't remember the exact references, but I think the randomizers were only a couple thousand out of the hundreds of thousands of total Gavs.

Still it does represent one of the fundamental problems with treating copies as the same person. Which is that clearly they aren't. They have the same past, but they aren't the same now.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:29 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
Some of the Gavs used a randomizer. We saw later Gavs who were perfectly happy with their Gav identities. I don't remember the exact references, but I think the randomizers were only a couple thousand out of the hundreds of thousands millions of total Gavs.

Fixed number. See the footnote for: https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2002-09-01
There were 950,000,000 Gavs after the original mass duplication.

The randomizers that we know of are such a small number as to be in the noise. However, the point that a "duplicate" ceases to be identical immediately after activation is still sound, and duplicates from a Laz5 backup are known to be lossy to start with. Some level of annoyance is certainly appropriate to the situation.

Hit in the head, losing all memories of the day it happens, and then months in a coma is not a bad analogy. This is not a thing that gets a response of "eh, so what" if it happens to your loved one.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:01 am 
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Doug Lampert wrote:
Hit in the head, losing all memories of the day it happens, and then months in a coma is not a bad analogy. This is not a thing that gets a response of "eh, so what" if it happens to your loved one.

It's also not a thing deserving the response of "OH NOES! THEY ARE DEAD!11!"

There's like a middle ground eh? But no one in comic seems to be emotionally capable of it. And from Petey, 'EH, they'll be back in 30 days" is pretty reasonable.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:18 am 
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Well no. Because if you're in the Continuity camp, dead is dead is dead. Continuity loss is dead. The copies might be who your loved one was - but your loved one STILL DIED. That particular person is gone, forever, unrecoverable. (I'm pretty sure it was in this very comic that we heard the phrase "We might need to issue some additional pronouns." That's one of the biggest problems in talking about these things.)

So what are we mourning when we lose a loved one? That they died? Or that we won't see them again?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:16 pm 
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JohnSmith wrote:
So what are we mourning when we lose a loved one? That they died? Or that we won't see them again?

That you won't see them ever again. This is a very different situation (because unless something goes terribly awry, they'll see Kevyn again).

And the Continuists are... wrong.




Look at it like this, if Kevyn had instead suffered a wound that only rolled back his memories 24 hours (and destroyed his REDREO) would everyone be running around crying that he died? No. They'd be upset he was badly (and oddly) wounded, but not "Oh boohoo, he is deaded". Even if it left him in a coma for a month, still not as grieved as if he were actually dead... because, that's where we're at, not actually dead.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:31 pm 
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Is loss of memories loss of continuity? That's a question too. Many people argue it's not.

Interesting though. So the idea that one unique stream of consciousness, one particular possible existence that you cared deeply for was snuffed out... that isn't what bothers you. Only your own ability to see another version of that existence is what matters.

So, out of curiosity... if a family member decided to move across the world, and never called or wrote - they're as good as dead to you?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:10 pm 
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I'm getting fed up that some people seem to insist that we all, and all the fictional characters, subscribe to their religion, as ours is just "wrong".


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:28 pm 
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Sean wrote:
I'm getting fed up that some people seem to insist that we all, and all the fictional characters, subscribe to their religion, as ours is just "wrong".

Kinda hard to predict what happens next if you don't accept the standards of the setting.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:05 pm 
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grahamf wrote:
Sean wrote:
I'm getting fed up that some people seem to insist that we all, and all the fictional characters, subscribe to their religion, as ours is just "wrong".

Kinda hard to predict what happens next if you don't accept the standards of the setting.


True.

Of course, the standard of the setting does happen to say that Continuity is a problem. Explicitly.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:29 pm 
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JohnSmith wrote:
Of course, the standard of the setting does happen to say that Continuity is a problem. Explicitly.

Characters in the setting make this claim.

I disagree with them naturally.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:30 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
grahamf wrote:
NullDragon wrote:
On the earlier links, Kevyn I think subscribes to 2. Even with the Gavins as they were, they clearly established different identities, and Kevyn prime is different from Retired Kevyn. They both originated from the same one, same as the gavins.

He's had so many past interrupted lives that he's used to it by now, I think. This latest hiccup is nothing more than a small bump in the road to him. A nice sleep.

The gavs used a randomizer iirc, and !Kevyn had to find a new identity for himself because he had experinces originalKevyn did not and originalKevyn was still around to deal with his responsibilities.


Some of the Gavs used a randomizer. We saw later Gavs who were perfectly happy with their Gav identities. I don't remember the exact references, but I think the randomizers were only a couple thousand out of the hundreds of thousands of total Gavs.

Still it does represent one of the fundamental problems with treating copies as the same person. Which is that clearly they aren't. They have the same past, but they aren't the same now.


Copies are the same person. It's only after copies start diverging that they become increasingly different.

JohnSmith wrote:
grahamf wrote:
Sean wrote:
I'm getting fed up that some people seem to insist that we all, and all the fictional characters, subscribe to their religion, as ours is just "wrong".

Kinda hard to predict what happens next if you don't accept the standards of the setting.


True.

Of course, the standard of the setting does happen to say that Continuity is a problem. Explicitly.


As evileeyore said, that's what characters think. One of the myriad things that distinguish bad authors and good authors is handling of opinions. Bad authors construct "universe" to promote their view, good authors will have characters arguing views. Howard ia a good author, SM universe does not give any answers as to whether continuity or patterns matter, what you see is character beliefs.

Also, things to keep in mind: narrator != author, character opinions != author opinions, narrator's opinions != author opinions, character opinions != in-story truth and even narrator's opinions != in-story truth (Howard uses reliable narrator, but occasionally relies on readers misinterpreting factual statements).


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:38 pm 
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M[i]ech wrote:
Copies are the same person. It's only after copies start diverging that they become increasingly different.


Which is exactly what I said. They had the same past, but they aren't the same now. They start to diverge the instant they gain different memories. And that happens almost immediately after they are made.

M[i]ech wrote:
As evileeyore said, that's what characters think. One of the myriad things that distinguish bad authors and good authors is handling of opinions. Bad authors construct "universe" to promote their view, good authors will have characters arguing views. Howard ia a good author, SM universe does not give any answers as to whether continuity or patterns matter, what you see is character beliefs.

Also, things to keep in mind: narrator != author, character opinions != author opinions, narrator's opinions != author opinions, character opinions != in-story truth and even narrator's opinions != in-story truth (Howard uses reliable narrator, but occasionally relies on readers misinterpreting factual statements).


That said it is the character's belief that their loved ones have just died. Constantly berating them in these threads for not changing long held beliefs immediately is not really a productive stance. I think they would have to die at least a few more times before they do. And they might possibly never change the Continuity of Identity school of thought has it's share of steadfast supporters.

And to be frank there is a long and fairly extensive record of studies that show that belief does matter when it comes to health and psychology. The characters act as though their loved ones have died because they believe that is what happened. The actual fact of the matter has no real bearing on their emotional state.

If it was revealed that no one died at all because Kevyn pulled some miraculous save out of his mad scientist hat it would in no way invalidate what they are currently going through.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:06 pm 
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evileeyore wrote:
JohnSmith wrote:
Of course, the standard of the setting does happen to say that Continuity is a problem. Explicitly.

Characters in the setting make this claim.

I disagree with them naturally.


Thankfully, that's completely irrelevant because I was responding to grahamf. That's why I was using the quote and all.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:02 am 
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JohnSmith wrote:
... I was responding to grahamf.

Irrelevant. It's an open conversation taking place in an open space.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:12 am 
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I mean sure, you can respond. It's just a complete non sequitur.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:35 pm 
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JohnSmith wrote:
I mean sure, you can respond. It's just a complete non sequitur.

I what manner? I built off your insistence that it's the Setting that dictates 'The Continuity Problem', which isn't the case. It's the Character's dialogue that indicates they specifically either believe in or wish to instill in others the belief of 'The Continuity Problem'.

It's not a setting switch as far as we can tell. I mean it could be, but baring Word of God, we have no evidence of this yet.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:31 pm 
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evileeyore wrote:
JohnSmith wrote:
I mean sure, you can respond. It's just a complete non sequitur.

I what manner? I built off your insistence that it's the Setting that dictates 'The Continuity Problem', which isn't the case. It's the Character's dialogue that indicates they specifically either believe in or wish to instill in others the belief of 'The Continuity Problem'.

It's not a setting switch as far as we can tell. I mean it could be, but baring Word of God, we have no evidence of this yet.



Because the characters having a problem with it, IS IT BEING A PROBLEM IN SETTING that you need to accept to predict what happens next. Which is what grahamf said. Which has absolutely bugger all to do with what YOU think about it. Hell, it doesn't even matter whether the continuity problem is REAL!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:06 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
Mech wrote:
Copies are the same person. It's only after copies start diverging that they become increasingly different.


Which is exactly what I said. They had the same past, but they aren't the same now. They start to diverge the instant they gain different memories. And that happens almost immediately after they are made.


Character restored from redreo (Laz-2 IIRC) is exactly the same as one who died. Character restored from backup (Laz-4 IIRC) is marginally different from one who died, yes. Due to daily backups I, however, would expect variance in latter to be inconsequential most of the time, because in same vein, you become different person every minute and yet, most of those differences don't actually matter. Kevyn is most likely being used to set up discussion of this very topic, he had epiphany, which restored one won't have.


evileeyore wrote:
JohnSmith wrote:
I mean sure, you can respond. It's just a complete non sequitur.

I what manner? I built off your insistence that it's the Setting that dictates 'The Continuity Problem', which isn't the case. It's the Character's dialogue that indicates they specifically either believe in or wish to instill in others the belief of 'The Continuity Problem'.

It's not a [i]setting switch as far as we can tell. I mean it could be, but baring Word of God, we have no evidence of this yet.


I agree completely. If there is some objective in-universe truth on this matter, we do not know it, and I don't expect we will find out. That would require shift in tone into Author Tract preaching, in works which are not built for that purpose from the start such change marks sharp decline in quality. I trust Howard is too good an author to do such a thing, no matter if I approve the message or not.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:26 pm 
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Please read my post again? The truth of it doesn't matter - in setting, explicitly, the continuity problem IS a problem, because people BELIEVE it is a problem. Calling them idiots is entirely beside the point.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:13 pm 
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JohnSmith wrote:
Please read my post again? The truth of it doesn't matter - in setting, explicitly, the continuity problem IS a problem, because people BELIEVE it is a problem. Calling them idiots is entirely beside the point.


If this was me, I would consider a copy, such as with Star Trek transporter, me. So long as we end up with one version at a time.

There is a ... story universe where they have something they call a "fax" that can be used like a transporter in "normal" mode. It can also be used to make temporary copies. So long as you keep the number of copies down to a minimum, and they don't live long, this is considered to be acceptable. The copy can either be reintegrated into your prime personality, so you remember doing two thing at the same time, in different places. If you allow a clone to remain independent for too long, it risks becoming another person.

Cultural differences I suspect. Dr McCoy always hated the transporter.

Having 900 million me's would be odd.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:25 am 
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Let me introduce you to something called an "mirror pool".

Just follow the playful pink prancing pony.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:20 pm 
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keybounce wrote:
Let me introduce you to something called an "mirror pool".

Just follow the playful pink prancing pony.

reference?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:22 pm 
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Or stroke.


Though the mirror pool thing is presumably running hot backups, with each one updating the others all the time. So in this you'd maybe have five Tagons running different missions, updating each other's memories via hypernode or something. Loss of one then has little loss of data, and there's another "real" Tagon ready to jump in.

Of course this just moves the continuity problem back a ways, and then makes it worlds more confusing. Syncing is hard to figure out philosophically.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:11 pm 
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aww, thought you were referencing a book

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:46 pm 
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keybounce wrote:
Let me introduce you to something called an "mirror pool".

I have no idea why you'd be referencing Lisa Gerrard's first solo album... but you do 'you' man.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:52 pm 
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JohnSmith wrote:
Well no. Because if you're in the Continuity camp, dead is dead is dead. Continuity loss is dead. The copies might be who your loved one was - but your loved one STILL DIED. That particular person is gone, forever, unrecoverable. (I'm pretty sure it was in this very comic that we heard the phrase "We might need to issue some additional pronouns." That's one of the biggest problems in talking about these things.)

Well, I am, obviously, a Continuity camper. But the thing is, I see things to their logical ends: That if Continuity is the case, and it certainly looks like it (not that this is actually a truly knowable problem, so honestly, characters could realistically take any position), then sleep is also the cessation of continuity, barring anomalies like lucid dreaming. And, obviously, we don't flip out and lose our shit over this. Our attachment is not to a specific continuity of an identity, clearly.

Ultimately, we should take a look at it from a simpler perspective: How does this affect YOU? Just as our reaction to something blowing up on the computer is moderated by how much loss we personally take from this event, ranging from "The application crashed and lost our changes since our last autosave, and how much is that, really?" to "the computer is bricked but the hard drive is intact" to "the computer has exploded in a big fiery ball visible from space and only external backups remain". What did we lose? THAT defines how we feel about this.

So, let us examine this.

Arrange these disasters in order of how you feel about this from least to most bad. Your spouse is accidentally destroyed...

1. ...mere seconds after their last backup. We can make another one, just like them, from that backup. You really don't have any lost experiences here, but they won't be finished rebuilding for a month or two.

2. ...after several years on a dangerous secret mission in which they've had no contact with you. All experiences since parting company with you are lost, but none of those experiences were shared with you, so you personally lost nothing aside from the rebuild time. If any. If they even tell you about it right away, as you might simply be left to notice something is off on your own, when they simply can't remember anything that happened on the mission that they're not allowed to tell you about anyway.

3. ...and the only backup we have is from before you ever met. We can make another one, but to them, you're a total stranger. It'll still take a month or two get even this outcome. For sake of argument, we'll say this lost time is less than that of case 2, nonetheless.

4. ...but the backup is a month old, and any experiences you two had since then are lost. We can make another one in a month or two.

5. ...in a teleporter accident right in front of you, right now, which results in them turning inside out and then exploding. Very gruesome. But don't worry, we can make a copy out of the pattern buffer in a few seconds.

I'm guessing these disasters are going to be ranked in some order like 5, 1, 2, 4, 3.


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