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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 8:08 pm 
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I have to wonder, why is it that AIs who transfer themselves to new systems never seem to check or partition themselves from their superstructures they inhabit.

Chinook clearly hasn't taken all of five microseconds to audit all her resources and functions. Cindercone didn't realise her ship was a teraport cage and LOTA also got infected by the burana bots that Ennesby programmed.

Admittedly LOTA found out about the long gun in Credomar, but it seems for all of Chinook's checksums she didn't even see huge processors not included in her available accssable memory.


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 8:22 pm 
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I don't think that LOTA was infected by the burana bots. As for Cindercone...well, she's not an Oafan AI, and might not have recognized everything she had access to.

Chinook, though, is inhabiting an enormous habitat with systems that are known to not have been as well maintained as they ought to have been, and who knows how badly millions of years have worn on them?


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 8:30 pm 
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On top of that, T'kkkuts Afa successfully hid those automated backdoors from himself - and he knew his systems better than Chinook ever could.

When you're made of software, it may be impossible to notice a hardware exploit in the system you're running on, because that exploit is part of you. If it was designed to hide itself from you, then you will never be able to notice it.


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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 8:36 pm 
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tryingtobewitty wrote:
On top of that, T'kkkuts Afa successfully hid those automated backdoors from himself - and he knew his systems better than Chinook ever could.

When you're made of software, it may be impossible to notice a hardware exploit in the system you're running on, because that exploit is part of you. If it was designed to hide itself from you, then you will never be able to notice it.

Plus it may have a mechanical system that physically connects and disconnects the mindspace. Can't detect a hard drive that's not plugged in. Puhtzho himself said that he reestablished a physical connection.

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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:49 pm 
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That said Chinook also wasn't native to this hardware and it was potentially damaged.. She should have been running a checksum against herself that would detect some bit of automated hardware deleting parts of her memory. Even if there aren't booby traps the possibility of hardware failure is a thing, and when your an AI data redundancy is pretty important.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:23 am 
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So Tagii didn't go to the crazy place again. She was dragged there. That changes my opinion of her. Unfortunately, I don't think that changes the best course of action...


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 9:35 am 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
That said Chinook also wasn't native to this hardware and it was potentially damaged.. She should have been running a checksum against herself that would detect some bit of automated hardware deleting parts of her memory. Even if there aren't booby traps the possibility of hardware failure is a thing, and when your an AI data redundancy is pretty important.

I see no particular reason to assume that an AI can run such a checksum.

It's probably a neural net, the intelligence is an emergent property (you growgram an AI, not program). It's overwhelmingly likely that the "active memory" is also part of the same system that produces the intelligence, hence the act of thinking, or of learning ANYTHING will throw off any checksum equivalent.

Even if there is a way to audit an AI, can it audit itself? The ability to run an audit implies the ability to isolate individual thoughts/ideas/memories, including the checksum.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:10 pm 
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Doug Lampert wrote:
Even if there is a way to audit an AI, can it audit itself? The ability to run an audit implies the ability to isolate individual thoughts/ideas/memories, including the checksum.


This strip implies that auditing an AI is quite possible.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:23 pm 
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I have a fundamental disagreement with Putzho's conclusion.

If Putzho, running from within* the T'kkkuts Afa mindspace, then Chinook could have found all this had she but looked. If Putzho somehow found all this from his ship, then likewise, anyone else could have found it had they looked.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:52 pm 
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evileeyore wrote:
I have a fundamental disagreement with Putzho's conclusion.

If Putzho, running from within* the T'kkkuts Afa mindspace, then Chinook could have found all this had she but looked. If Putzho somehow found all this from his ship, then likewise, anyone else could have found it had they looked.


Putzho went in knowing there was something to look for. He already knew that Chinook was editing her memories right then and there. That he, instead, found a daemon doing it TO Chinook rather than Chinook doing it to herself, doesn't matter. It's much easier to find something if you already know, or suspect, there is something there to be found. It gets you looking in the right places and the right way.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 3:59 pm 
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evileeyore wrote:
I have a fundamental disagreement with Putzho's conclusion.

If Putzho, running from within* the T'kkkuts Afa mindspace, then Chinook could have found all this had she but looked. If Putzho somehow found all this from his ship, then likewise, anyone else could have found it had they looked.

The comparison may not be fair to Chinook. Putzho has the advantage of some technology rather in advance of the setting average, and so what he's capable of doing shouldn't be considered indicative of what more ordinary AIs can do.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 5:09 pm 
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Barmaglot wrote:
Doug Lampert wrote:
Even if there is a way to audit an AI, can it audit itself? The ability to run an audit implies the ability to isolate individual thoughts/ideas/memories, including the checksum.


This strip implies that auditing an AI is quite possible.


It says that a different, vastly superior AI, can do something that is called an audit.

Which has nothing to do with whether any AI can audit itself. TAG couldn't even tell it was being audited when it happened and when warned it was about to happen. This says that AIs aren't all that capable of detecting things like externally imposed changes to the AI, aka exactly what you want an audit to spot.

There is nothing in the cited strip that implies a self-audit to spot changes is possible or practical. Quite the contrary.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 7:48 pm 
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You don't need to run an active audit. You just need to have backups and every so often check that your backups aren't substantially diverging from each other. Obviously some divergence is acceptable in the course of living, but deleting swaths of memory and going insane should give enough divergence to raise a red flag.

That said I think it is becoming very clear that no one really looked to hard at the Eina-Afa hardware. Part of that might be its sheer size, but I think the abundance of PTUs may have blinded them a bit to other less obvious technologies.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 6:01 am 
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What's more sad about this it could have been avoided if they'd only run that parity check...


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 8:44 am 
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Reaver225 wrote:
What's more sad about this it could have been avoided if they'd only run that parity check...

Another parity check, which means they'd already run at least one, and missed the daemon then.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:58 am 
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Sean wrote:
Another parity check
To be fair, I was assuming they did that before moving Chinook into Ein-afa. And it does sound like this system isn't always active.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 11:31 am 
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The impressive thing is how quickly Putzho was able to discover entire sections of the Eina-Afa hardware that Chinook apparently was unaware of.
Is he doing this just as a software infection? Or is the copy in the All-star cruiser using some fancy scanners?


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 6:05 pm 
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Reaver225 wrote:
Sean wrote:
Another parity check
To be fair, I was assuming they did that before moving Chinook into Ein-afa. And it does sound like this system isn't always active.


Yeah that kind of check won't help if the damage hasn't been done yet. I was more thinking that she should have had checks scheduled regularly. Though I suppose it is possible that she does and her next check just hasn't come up yet.


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 8:24 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
Reaver225 wrote:
Yeah that kind of check won't help if the damage hasn't been done yet. I was more thinking that she should have had checks scheduled regularly. Though I suppose it is possible that she does and her next check just hasn't come up yet.


Even if she did, Chinook seems to have gone from zero to crazy in a few microseconds courtesy of the wipe. Any parity checks before that wouldn't have found anything, and it's not like Chinook would have let them run any afterward (and even if she had, she'd have rejected the results.)


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 9:14 pm 
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FrankNorman wrote:
The impressive thing is how quickly Putzho was able to discover entire sections of the Eina-Afa hardware that Chinook apparently was unaware of.
Is he doing this just as a software infection? Or is the copy in the All-star cruiser using some fancy scanners?

. . .

Being a software infection might have some advantages in finding hidden hardware . . . he finds a really good place to hide, then looks around at what's already hidden there . . .

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:09 am 
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It also helps that the mind alteration is happening right in front of Putzho, and he can literally see it with his advanced sensors, which Petey couldn't do (which is why he's relying on Putzho).

I take it back, it probably isn't really their fault. Still, it's painful to see what might have been avoidable!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:46 pm 
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I'm under impression that All-Star's tech and knowledge gives Putzho some capacities even deus ex bear would consider deus ex machina. Which is good, because right now we need deus ex grade solution for galaxy to survive, except all parts were in some way foreshadowed (forgetting what was forgotten, eh?), so it's not really deus ex machina.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:57 am 
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The part that I cannot follow: how did Eina-Afa's automated memory wipe cause Chinook to go crazy?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:30 am 
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keybounce wrote:
The part that I cannot follow: how did Eina-Afa's automated memory wipe cause Chinook to go crazy?

Well, to be fair she was already going over the edge to start with, but the wipe begin destabilizing her memories of Petey, that he could be trusted, etc. Things have likely only gotten worse since.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:01 am 
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keybounce wrote:
The part that I cannot follow: how did Eina-Afa's automated memory wipe cause Chinook to go crazy?


Probably because she's not the AI it was designed to work on, and so it's messing with the wrong sections of her codebase.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:52 pm 
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M[i]ech wrote:
I'm under impression that All-Star's tech and knowledge gives Putzho some capacities even deus ex bear would consider deus ex machina. Which is good, because right now we need deus ex grade solution for galaxy to survive, except all parts were in some way foreshadowed (forgetting what was forgotten, eh?), so it's not really deus ex machina.


It's entirely possible that All Star might have the original blueprints on hand.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:40 am 
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FrankNorman wrote:
keybounce wrote:
The part that I cannot follow: how did Eina-Afa's automated memory wipe cause Chinook to go crazy?

Probably because she's not the AI it was designed to work on, and so it's messing with the wrong sections of her codebase.
To be fair, Eina-Afa's memory wipe was also driving the original crazy as well, so...


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:08 am 
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Ha-! That's why Eina-afa has forgotten more things than all of them put together could remember!


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:20 pm 
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keybounce wrote:
The part that I cannot follow: how did Eina-Afa's automated memory wipe cause Chinook to go crazy?


I think that the details of what was being erased were also pertinent. The automated memory wipe was supposed to make Eina-Afa forget that it had stored copies all the Oafa. So it probably took out the closest thing it could find that matched that in Chinook's memories, which were the Tough backups. (To clarify not the actual backups just Chinook's memory of them.)

At the same time Petey was trying to tell Chinook it would get better because the Tough's were backed up. So Chinook was grieving over the initial loss, and then thought that Petey was talking crazy about nonexistent backups at a very insensitive time. Which led to the anger spiral and probably even more memory loss as the automated wipe tried to figure out what to get rid of in a foreign AI.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:23 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
keybounce wrote:
The part that I cannot follow: how did Eina-Afa's automated memory wipe cause Chinook to go crazy?


I think that the details of what was being erased were also pertinent. The automated memory wipe was supposed to make Eina-Afa forget that it had stored copies all the Oafa. So it probably took out the closest thing it could find that matched that in Chinook's memories, which were the Tough backups. (To clarify not the actual backups just Chinook's memory of them.)

At the same time Petey was trying to tell Chinook it would get better because the Tough's were backed up. So Chinook was grieving over the initial loss, and then thought that Petey was talking crazy about nonexistent backups at a very insensitive time. Which led to the anger spiral and probably even more memory loss as the automated wipe tried to figure out what to get rid of in a foreign AI.


I'd say it's more likely the auto-scrub attacked whichever memory was causing Chinook grief. Right then, it was that she was an active participant in the decision to send the toughs on that humanitarian mission.
Earlier it scrubbed whatever was causing Eina-Afa anguish, which was knowledge that it had imprisoned trillions of people in the name of safety.
It's scrubbing whatever causes anguish, and now, it's probably involved in a self-feeding spiral.


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