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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 1:37 am 
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Safari Exhibit
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Chinook can be restored, but you have to remember it, all of it, in order to save her, and the current galactic civilization.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:21 pm 
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OK, I'm super-confused.

(Long-long-long time reader who finally caved and created an account today because of said confusion.)

Can someone fill me in on what exactly is going on here? Is this...another part of Chinook's personality?

thx!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:44 am 
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Iafa not only put all of the Oafans in a secure part of the Eina-Afa infosphere, he also put all of their ship AIs in there with them. Now, what sort of ships is Chinook using to prosecute her anti-long gun campaign?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:39 am 
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Thanks!

And (this is really dumb) but I forget the relationship between Iafa and Chinook.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:08 am 
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dlince wrote:
And (this is really dumb) but I forget the relationship between Iafa and Chinook.

Iafa is the AI that was running Eina-Afa when the Toughs got there. I'm wary of calling him the "original" AI there because we don't know enough about that history.

Chinook used to be Tagii, or at least, she thinks she used to be Tagii. She moved into Eina-Afa, and Iafa moved out, becoming the AI of the warship Broken Wind, later Breath Weapon.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:04 am 
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(This may be a dupe - internet is spotty where I am)

You rock! Thanks so much for jogging my memory.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:15 pm 
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Safari Exhibit
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Technically, it wasn't Iafa who was running Eina-Afa; it was T'kkkuts Afa, who remade itself into Iafa when it decided to move out and cede running the station to Chinook.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:19 pm 
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Iafa died when Breath Weapon got lobotomized. The new unnamed AI who was born when Iafa copied itself into Eina-Afa's infosphere is still around and kicking though!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:54 pm 
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Ah, and the scenes we are seeing now are in the infosphere?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:34 pm 
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Reaver225 wrote:
Iafa died when Breath Weapon got lobotomized. The new unnamed AI who was born when Iafa copied itself into Eina-Afa's infosphere is still around and kicking though!


AI are much more reasonable about that bullcrap and generally consider their backups and copies to be THEMSELVES, just in different places.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:42 pm 
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Kendrakirai wrote:
Reaver225 wrote:
Iafa died when Breath Weapon got lobotomized. The new unnamed AI who was born when Iafa copied itself into Eina-Afa's infosphere is still around and kicking though!


AI are much more reasonable about that bullcrap and generally consider their backups and copies to be THEMSELVES, just in different places.


Not Cindercone.
https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2017-01-17
https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2017-01-18
https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2017-01-19


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:14 pm 
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That applies in most cases, but Iafa was able to move from Eina-Afa to to Breath Weapon in the first place. So either he already died once, and wasn't particularly upset about it, or the two systems are compatible enough that he can make the jump. Cindercone herself went from a gunship to a warship so it obviously only requires compatibility not exactly the same hardware even by her standards.

Of course whether he can make the jump in the very small amount of time he had is another question entirely. But he's already lost huge amounts of memory, as demonstrated by these last few strips, so he can probably restore himself. He doesn't want to restore himself, but again that's another issue.


Last edited by Arcanestomper on Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:16 pm 
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dlince wrote:
Ah, and the scenes we are seeing now are in the infosphere?

Yes, the scenes between Iafa and Putzho are the sectioned off bit of the Ein-Afa infosphere.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:55 pm 
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evileeyore wrote:
dlince wrote:
Ah, and the scenes we are seeing now are in the infosphere?

Yes, the scenes between Iafa and Putzho are the sectioned off bit of the Ein-Afa infosphere.


Thanks!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:55 am 
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dlince wrote:
Thanks!

And that was lucky post #3! No more waiting for a moderator to approve them anymore!

So run free, and get yerself off to the 'what's your weapon' thread to be issued your forum weapon for the someday-never-comes forum wars.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:40 am 
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The power!

And thank you :)


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:39 pm 
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Sean wrote:
Kendrakirai wrote:
Reaver225 wrote:
Iafa died when Breath Weapon got lobotomized. The new unnamed AI who was born when Iafa copied itself into Eina-Afa's infosphere is still around and kicking though!


AI are much more reasonable about that bullcrap and generally consider their backups and copies to be THEMSELVES, just in different places.


Not Cindercone.
https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2017-01-17
https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2017-01-18
https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2017-01-19


THAT is a different matter. That LITERALLY isn't Tagii. Chinook is descended from a fragment that was left over from her hack of Ennesby, plus his own impression/memories of her. She never transferred or copied herself over. Iafa DID.

You're comparing a photograph to an artists rendition of said photograph. No matter how accurate it is, it isn't the original, or even a copy - another print of the photograph.

Put another way, Iafa copied herself over. Direct copy up to that point. The original "quit without saving" a few seconds later. All of the information was retained since the last save, which was immediately before the copy.

Tagii had her file corrupted and deleted, and the while thing was remade *as close as possible* using what fragments and screenshots had been kept and the memory of what was. Chinook is CLOSE, but she isn't, and never was, Tagii - just impressions and fragments. Chinook is no more Tagii than a taxidermied dog is your beloved family pet. There's parts of it there, but the dog is dead, no matter how much it looks like poor old Frankie.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:23 pm 
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Monkey House Exhibit
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Kendrakirai wrote:
Sean wrote:
Kendrakirai wrote:
AI are much more reasonable about that bullcrap and generally consider their backups and copies to be THEMSELVES, just in different places.


Not Cindercone.
https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2017-01-17
https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2017-01-18
https://www.schlockmercenary.com/2017-01-19


THAT is a different matter. That LITERALLY isn't Tagii. Chinook is descended from a fragment that was left over from her hack of Ennesby, plus his own impression/memories of her. She never transferred or copied herself over. Iafa DID.

You're comparing a photograph to an artists rendition of said photograph. No matter how accurate it is, it isn't the original, or even a copy - another print of the photograph.

Put another way, Iafa copied herself over. Direct copy up to that point. The original "quit without saving" a few seconds later. All of the information was retained since the last save, which was immediately before the copy.

Tagii had her file corrupted and deleted, and the while thing was remade *as close as possible* using what fragments and screenshots had been kept and the memory of what was. Chinook is CLOSE, but she isn't, and never was, Tagii - just impressions and fragments. Chinook is no more Tagii than a taxidermied dog is your beloved family pet. There's parts of it there, but the dog is dead, no matter how much it looks like poor old Frankie.


Go back to the first two strips in that set, where Cindercone explains that she Can't migrate to different hardware, which is why she's still running on that old hardware.
It may, or may not, be true that the typical AI would consider a port and wipe copy of themself to be the original, but it is not a universal position, and the one datapoint we DO have is an AI defining the difference between a port and wipe copy, and the original as,.. not the same.

Although Petey is certainly free with sending copies of himself off to die, it should be pointed out that Petey is a massively distributed AI, and those copies are more likely nodes. Meaning Petey isn't ever killed, (except for that first time,) but he does keep giving himself minor concussions.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:06 pm 
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Cindy can't, but she's a 600 year old AI built for very specific hardware. There's no reason to think that the Oafans had that hardware limitation. In fact, the fact that Iafa seems to have moved the Long Gun pilots into the infosphere suggests that all their hardware is compatible with itself.

Cindy also didn't say if she could move into an identical rig or not. Just that she couldn't transfer to 'new hardware', and used Ennesby as an example, who has shifted from a mainframe to a starship to a maraca to a dropship back to a maraca BACK to a starship...

The Daysun-Tingo dock bots were backed up and restored without really caring too much, and were even casually conversing as they waited to be rebuilt - they specifically said that they were constantly backed up, rather than acting as drones. Compatible hardware.

And then there's Putzho, who has split off distinct copies of himself into the Oafan infosphere and Petey's domain - it was one of the first things he did once he learned how, splinter himself into parallel subprocesses. He isn't at all concerned about which one is the 'real' him, and neither do most AIs that we've seen.

To be an AI is to have a massively parallel existence. Doing and processing hundreds, thousands of things at once, consciously, all the time, creating subprocesses to deal with things. It's something organics can't really comprehend - except the hive minds like that guy who was in two bodies, or the buggy Oafans.

Iafa doesn't 'think' she's Iafa, she IS Iafa, just a different iteration.

....think of the Gate-Clones. They don't 'think' they're the people copied, they ARE. In every possible measurable respect. Just because there's two of them doesn't make one any less real. Any less *that person*.

Hell, Kevyn is on Kevyn Mark III now. The only people who really seem to be grieving are those who don't and can't understand (Silksilver), who have heavy religious beliefs (the Chaplain), and Elf, who's upset that she won't be getting back a Kevyn that remembers his apology.

(And Chinook, but she's got other problems right now)


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:51 pm 
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Kendrakirai wrote:
Cindy can't, but she's a 600 year old AI built for very specific hardware. There's no reason to think that the Oafans had that hardware limitation. In fact, the fact that Iafa seems to have moved the Long Gun pilots into the infosphere suggests that all their hardware is compatible with itself.

Cindy also didn't say if she could move into an identical rig or not. Just that she couldn't transfer to 'new hardware', and used Ennesby as an example, who has shifted from a mainframe to a starship to a maraca to a dropship back to a maraca BACK to a starship...

The Daysun-Tingo dock bots were backed up and restored without really caring too much, and were even casually conversing as they waited to be rebuilt - they specifically said that they were constantly backed up, rather than acting as drones. Compatible hardware.

And then there's Putzho, who has split off distinct copies of himself into the Oafan infosphere and Petey's domain - it was one of the first things he did once he learned how, splinter himself into parallel subprocesses. He isn't at all concerned about which one is the 'real' him, and neither do most AIs that we've seen.

To be an AI is to have a massively parallel existence. Doing and processing hundreds, thousands of things at once, consciously, all the time, creating subprocesses to deal with things. It's something organics can't really comprehend - except the hive minds like that guy who was in two bodies, or the buggy Oafans.

Iafa doesn't 'think' she's Iafa, she IS Iafa, just a different iteration.

....think of the Gate-Clones. They don't 'think' they're the people copied, they ARE. In every possible measurable respect. Just because there's two of them doesn't make one any less real. Any less *that person*.

Hell, Kevyn is on Kevyn Mark III now. The only people who really seem to be grieving are those who don't and can't understand (Silksilver), who have heavy religious beliefs (the Chaplain), and Elf, who's upset that she won't be getting back a Kevyn that remembers his apology.

(And Chinook, but she's got other problems right now)


By Cindy's words, Cindy was speaking for most AI's. She didn't say most AI's of her generation. It is possible that an AI can migrate to a sufficiently similar frame. I'll grant that. That said, if Cindy could migrate into compatible hardware, there would presumably be some rationale to using factory new, built to compatible specs, for the new ship.
I'd say that at least Cindy believes in continuity theory, and ascribes it to most other AI.

The gate-clones started out as identical, but quickly diverged. In fact, it's partly the existence of all those gate-clones which pushes the continuity identity theory over pattern identity theory. Even minutes separate, the nearest Gav-clone told Kevyn that he wasn't interested in risking his life, but Kevyn was free to go bug one of those other Gav's about his proposal. Each individual human gate-clone has a self-image that sees themself as self, and even a recent duplicate as someone else.

Ennesby was specifically used as a counter-example, and the nature of his programming, that of being a vanilla helix AI, was credited for his ability to migrate freely. We don't know the program base of the shipyard robots, but they were specifically engineered for being able to restore from backup, so it would be reasonable to suppose that they were vanilla helix specifically for the advantages in migration that granted. It was a design feature.

We don't know how independent Putzho's "copies" are. It's very possible that his forks all reintegrate regularly, it's also possible that his forks are in near-continuous communication, and there is only one Putzho, but I should remind you that Putzho was identified as a very special mind, able to push even standard hardware to the edge of its performance envelope. Also, Putzho doesn't really qualify as an "AI". He's an upload of a biological, naturally developed, intelligence.

Karl Tagon grieved for three months before deciding to bring his boy back. It was an AI, Tailor, who was instrumental in making sure Kaff Tagon understood that he was a replacement goldfish.

It is certainly reasonable that the Oafans have the technology to make seamless migration easy enough that they remain themselves as they move to another compatible shell.
It is also arguable that every time the toughs use the terraport, they kill themselves, and it is only a new-forged copy, using the same subatomic matter but not necessarily the same atomic matter, as the last iteration.

But to sum up: AI aren't much more reasonable about that bullcrap as at least one example, from a small available pool, does not hold to that theory, and another was willing to convey the other theory to a newly-restored human who was leaning toward identifying himself with, AS, his earlier iteration.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:37 am 
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Sean wrote:
Karl Tagon grieved for three months before deciding to bring his boy back. It was an AI, Tailor, who was instrumental in making sure Kaff Tagon understood that he was a replacement goldfish.

You state this as though many of us didn't argue that Tailor was/is wrong.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:56 am 
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evileeyore wrote:
Sean wrote:
Karl Tagon grieved for three months before deciding to bring his boy back. It was an AI, Tailor, who was instrumental in making sure Kaff Tagon understood that he was a replacement goldfish.

You state this as though many of us didn't argue that Tailor was/is wrong.


Indeed, I still think it makes no sense for an AI, who can be backed up, copied, and remade with little to no loss of fidelity, to ascribe to continuity theory. (which is a lot of philosophical nonsense if you ask me)

I think Tailor may have been speaking with Howard's voice when he was telling Tagon he wasn't the 'real' one.

And yes, Cindy meant AIs in general, but her age certainly couldn't help things.

The divergence of the gate clones doesn't matter. They were still THOSE PEOPLE, just new *iterations* of them. Every Gav was the real Gav. That their experiences diverged means nothing. The ORIGINAL Gav died. That doesn't make them any less Gav Thorpe. The fact they wanted to survive should *reinforce* the view that they aren't 'fakes' or something. They had ALL of his thoughts, memories, drive, etc, up to the point he made the copy.

Just like Iafa does here. And Putzho isn't disabusing her of the fact, or even suggesting that the one who imprisoned the Oafans already WAS dead.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:26 am 
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Kendrakirai wrote:
evileeyore wrote:
Sean wrote:
Karl Tagon grieved for three months before deciding to bring his boy back. It was an AI, Tailor, who was instrumental in making sure Kaff Tagon understood that he was a replacement goldfish.

You state this as though many of us didn't argue that Tailor was/is wrong.


Indeed, I still think it makes no sense for an AI, who can be backed up, copied, and remade with little to no loss of fidelity, to ascribe to continuity theory. (which is a lot of philosophical nonsense if you ask me)

I think Tailor may have been speaking with Howard's voice when he was telling Tagon he wasn't the 'real' one.

And yes, Cindy meant AIs in general, but her age certainly couldn't help things.

The divergence of the gate clones doesn't matter. They were still THOSE PEOPLE, just new *iterations* of them. Every Gav was the real Gav. That their experiences diverged means nothing. The ORIGINAL Gav died. That doesn't make them any less Gav Thorpe. The fact they wanted to survive should *reinforce* the view that they aren't 'fakes' or something. They had ALL of his thoughts, memories, drive, etc, up to the point he made the copy.

Just like Iafa does here. And Putzho isn't disabusing her of the fact, or even suggesting that the one who imprisoned the Oafans already WAS dead.



Kendrakirai wrote:
AI are much more reasonable about that bullcrap and generally consider their backups and copies to be THEMSELVES, just in different places.


I have given you two solid examples of AI, from the small pool of AI that we have gotten to know, who are not "much more reasonable about that bullcrap". At the very least, AI are as diverse on the subject as are humans; some of whom do not ascribe to an afterlife, and some who do, some who, like yourself, would consider a restoration from backup to be yourself, and some who would consider that person a new person, they would be dead.

I'm not arguing whether or not these AI are right or wrong in their belief, (and they certainly do seem to share humanity's capacity for cognitive dissonance,) I'm saying AI, as a group, are not monolithic in their belief that concerns over self identity from a restored backup are not all "that bullcrap".


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:27 pm 
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Come to think about it, couldn't those shipbuilder drones have simply been a remote drone? It explains why they are kept active when their bodys are destroyed, and they problably tried to simplify things to Tagon by not mentioning that they keep their brains elsewhere.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:08 am 
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grahamf wrote:
Come to think about it, couldn't those shipbuilder drones have simply been a remote drone? It explains why they are kept active when their bodys are destroyed, and they problably tried to simplify things to Tagon by not mentioning that they keep their brains elsewhere.


Yes, and that would make sense. However, it is not what we, (and Tagon) are told, and inventing reasons why what is written is actually canonically wrong is a job for the author/artist, not us.
Especially when arguing over a tangential issue, such as whether or not they were bothered by the idea or experience of restoration from backup.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:38 pm 
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grahamf wrote:
Come to think about it, couldn't those shipbuilder drones have simply been a remote drone?

More than likely, being ship-builder 'bots, they were designed for 'accidental destruction recovery' and thus had continuous [back-up] systems and were designed around being reinstalled in an identical mind-frame.

This gets around the problems of remote operation (time-lag and security), but makes for a bot willing to lay down it's life to finish the job, if that is the most efficient use of it.


Last edited by evileeyore on Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:57 am 
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Kendrakirai wrote:
THAT is a different matter. That LITERALLY isn't Tagii. Chinook is descended from a fragment that was left over from her hack of Ennesby, plus his own impression/memories of her. She never transferred or copied herself over. Iafa DID.


Not quite true, Tagii gestalted into Ennesby out of desperation, meaning she deliberately copied herself onto his hardware. Whether that copy counts as her is another question entirely (we know Cyndy's opinion on the matter), but it certainly isn't just random leftover data.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:55 pm 
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Omegatron wrote:
Kendrakirai wrote:
THAT is a different matter. That LITERALLY isn't Tagii. Chinook is descended from a fragment that was left over from her hack of Ennesby, plus his own impression/memories of her. She never transferred or copied herself over. Iafa DID.


Not quite true, Tagii gestalted into Ennesby out of desperation, meaning she deliberately copied herself onto his hardware. Whether that copy counts as her is another question entirely (we know Cyndy's opinion on the matter), but it certainly isn't just random leftover data.

Tagii gestalted onto Ennesby's hardware, but the gestalt ended up expressing itself as a remnant of Ennesby's 'multiple gestalt manifold'. So the result was Tagii's gestalt running through Ennesby's programming. To me, that seems like Chinook is the child of Tagii and Ennesby.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 5:35 pm 
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Motortiki wrote:
Omegatron wrote:
Kendrakirai wrote:
THAT is a different matter. That LITERALLY isn't Tagii. Chinook is descended from a fragment that was left over from her hack of Ennesby, plus his own impression/memories of her. She never transferred or copied herself over. Iafa DID.


Not quite true, Tagii gestalted into Ennesby out of desperation, meaning she deliberately copied herself onto his hardware. Whether that copy counts as her is another question entirely (we know Cyndy's opinion on the matter), but it certainly isn't just random leftover data.

Tagii gestalted onto Ennesby's hardware, but the gestalt ended up expressing itself as a remnant of Ennesby's 'multiple gestalt manifold'. So the result was Tagii's gestalt running through Ennesby's programming. To me, that seems like Chinook is the child of Tagii and Ennesby.


That's one interpretation, my impression was that a multi-gestalt manifold acts more like a virtual machine host.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:04 pm 
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Omegatron wrote:
Motortiki wrote:
Omegatron wrote:

Not quite true, Tagii gestalted into Ennesby out of desperation, meaning she deliberately copied herself onto his hardware. Whether that copy counts as her is another question entirely (we know Cyndy's opinion on the matter), but it certainly isn't just random leftover data.

Tagii gestalted onto Ennesby's hardware, but the gestalt ended up expressing itself as a remnant of Ennesby's 'multiple gestalt manifold'. So the result was Tagii's gestalt running through Ennesby's programming. To me, that seems like Chinook is the child of Tagii and Ennesby.


That's one interpretation, my impression was that a multi-gestalt manifold acts more like a virtual machine host.

Yeah, that's how I interpret how it worked when Ennesby was the New Sync Boys. But he doesn't have that manifold anymore, so I think it was more like multiple programs running on a single kernel.
We also know from this that Ennesby had write privileges on the version of Tagii that was running on his hardware, so that further inclines me to think of that instance of her as being a program running a tier below the Ennesby instance, rather than running in parallel or being virtually embedded.


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