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 Post subject: 2018-7-22 Repossession
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:06 pm 
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Does this mean that Tagon and co are broke again?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:17 pm 
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Nemoricus wrote:
Does this mean that Tagon and co are broke again?



I hope so. I vastly prefer the smaller scale books like 8, 10 ,12, 14 and 15 to the last 3 that keep having a big background secondary story that never gets answered.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:29 pm 
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Nemoricus wrote:
Does this mean that Tagon and co are broke again?


Very likely. Back to a single ship no AI and not knowing how to make next payroll.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:33 pm 
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ushio wrote:
Nemoricus wrote:
Does this mean that Tagon and co are broke again?



I hope so. I vastly prefer the smaller scale books like 8, 10 ,12, 14 and 15 to the last 3 that keep having a big background secondary story that never gets answered.


I disagree, the situation was getting old. They have accumulated powerful enemies and only money can keep them at arm's length. Also they will become weaker since any potential loss can mean that the Toughs disband through lack of funds. That almost happened once.

I want them to remain a small fleet and while having to work for a living, not being on the edge of bankruptcy would be fine by me.

But I agree on one thing, the Toughs not having to work for a living was also a bit off.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:02 pm 
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Zeus67 wrote:
Nemoricus wrote:
Does this mean that Tagon and co are broke again?


Very likely. Back to a single ship no AI and not knowing how to make next payroll.


That at least won't happen. At minimum they'll keep the Synthetic Certainty and Cyndy will keep piloting it. They may lose Breath Weapon, but maybe not as it's already been heavily retrofitted and most courts would almost certainly class all of Eina-Afa as salvage. They'll probably lose Iafa though since it was undergoing an emotional crisis on finding out what it had done. So that might make it unpilotable and they give it up anyway.

What they'll almost certainly lose access to all the scrap ships that their stocks are invested in. There will probably be a huge legal battle over it as a number of them have been sold off, the abandonment by the owners, and the legal rights of the New Oafans and hive minds will all be a huge mess. So whether or not the Toughs have any legal ground to stand on everything will be tied up until the courts are resolved.

Still they aren't completely dependent on those assets. Petey certainly isn't, and I doubt he'll let a proven capable mercenary unit disband even if they weren't his friends. Admittedly he would have at one point, but the Andromeda war seems to be heating up, someone needs to find the rest of Chinook's guns, and he at least helped get them into this mess by facilitating the PTU hull deals.

What I think will happen is that Petey and Putzho will work out a deal with the old Oafans for their services in building the world forge in exchange for the rights to the hulls that were already sold and are in use. After all the old Oafans might be annoyed by the loss of their ships, but they are still in the same boat as the new Oafans in needing annie plants to jumpstart everything. And if the deal to sell the PTU hulls is rendered invalid, then so is the payment of the tricorn battleplate.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:34 pm 
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The Toughs don't even have to lose the assets . . . the court simply sequesters the disputed assets until the final decision.

Which could be in a century or more . . . after all, it's not like the principals are in any hurry to finish the case before they die . . .

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:44 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
Zeus67 wrote:
Nemoricus wrote:
Does this mean that Tagon and co are broke again?


Very likely. Back to a single ship no AI and not knowing how to make next payroll.


That at least won't happen. At minimum they'll keep the Synthetic Certainty and Cyndy will keep piloting it. They may lose Breath Weapon, but maybe not as it's already been heavily retrofitted and most courts would almost certainly class all of Eina-Afa as salvage. They'll probably lose Iafa though since it was undergoing an emotional crisis on finding out what it had done. So that might make it unpilotable and they give it up anyway.

What they'll almost certainly lose access to all the scrap ships that their stocks are invested in. There will probably be a huge legal battle over it as a number of them have been sold off, the abandonment by the owners, and the legal rights of the New Oafans and hive minds will all be a huge mess. So whether or not the Toughs have any legal ground to stand on everything will be tied up until the courts are resolved.

Still they aren't completely dependent on those assets. Petey certainly isn't, and I doubt he'll let a proven capable mercenary unit disband even if they weren't his friends. Admittedly he would have at one point, but the Andromeda war seems to be heating up, someone needs to find the rest of Chinook's guns, and he at least helped get them into this mess by facilitating the PTU hull deals.

What I think will happen is that Petey and Putzho will work out a deal with the old Oafans for their services in building the world forge in exchange for the rights to the hulls that were already sold and are in use. After all the old Oafans might be annoyed by the loss of their ships, but they are still in the same boat as the new Oafans in needing annie plants to jumpstart everything. And if the deal to sell the PTU hulls is rendered invalid, then so is the payment of the tricorn battleplate.

Iafa liked her new gunboats that did not have PTU hulls but did have superior firepower. It's possible that some pilots will accept replacements that they can slowly retrofit and rebuild PTU hulls for.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:47 am 
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FreeFlier wrote:
after all, it's not like the principals are in any hurry to finish the case before they die . . .

To ensure things move slowly, perhaps someone could hire a Snake Hivemind Lawyer, and not shoot it.

Arcanestomper wrote:
most courts would almost certainly class all of Eina-Afa as salvage.

Can you salvage a manned vessel?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:42 am 
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stonefish wrote:
Can you salvage a manned vessel?

Mini-Schlock did.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:44 am 
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Reaver225 wrote:
stonefish wrote:
Can you salvage a manned vessel?

Mini-Schlock did.

No, the Integrity was "abandoned". Mini-Schlock just kept the locals from claiming it long enough for Petey to bribe the right judge to award it to Mini-Schlock.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:42 pm 
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The point is that the vessels they salvaged weren't manned. Sure it eventually turned out that their former owners weren't actually dead. But if you leave something lying around completely untouched for long enough most courts count it as claimable whether or not you're still alive.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:18 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
The point is that the vessels they salvaged weren't manned. Sure it eventually turned out that their former owners weren't actually dead. But if you leave something lying around completely untouched for long enough most courts count it as claimable whether or not you're still alive.

Except this is more like the bank you trusted to store your belongings went senile, trapped you in a jail, then forgot you were still alive.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:51 pm 
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Except they wouldn't still be alive if said bank hadn't trapped them in the first place. There are a lot of intricacies to this, which is why it would takes decades or centuries for the courts to work out how everything should be handled.

Or a couple seconds of discussion between Putzo, Petey, and the Oafan AIs.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:16 pm 
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stonefish wrote:
. . .
Arcanestomper wrote:
most courts would almost certainly class all of Eina-Afa as salvage.

Can you salvage a manned vessel?

Under current maritime law, yes.

There are some intricacies, but yes.

And then the owner has to pay up, hand the ship over, or the ship is subject to arrest.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:26 am 
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Quote:
the ship is subject to arrest.
That poor ship!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:54 am 
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Reaver225 wrote:
Quote:
the ship is subject to arrest.
That poor ship!

It didin do nuffin!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:21 am 
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FreeFlier wrote:
stonefish wrote:
Can you salvage a manned vessel?

Under current maritime law, yes.


Given Tagon's reaction to the term, apparently under Schlockiverse law as well.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:37 am 
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ChowGuy wrote:
FreeFlier wrote:
stonefish wrote:
Can you salvage a manned vessel?

Under current maritime law, yes.


Given Tagon's reaction to the term, apparently under Schlockiverse law as well.


8O So what you're saying is that a damaged vessel with the original crew still aboard, maybe trying to fix it could be claimed as "salvage" under both modern maritime law, and under Schlockiverse space travel laws? AND stand a good chance of that claim being honored?

If true, that's a only a couple short steps away from out and out piracy.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:31 pm 
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The specifics of Schlockverse law aside (which we also don't know), Tagon's prickly reaction has more to do with being correct about the terminology. Because they were being towed, the Touch-and-Go was still their ship. If they were instead being salvaged, it wouldn't be, and Tagon very much wants his ship to stay his ship.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:00 pm 
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macnut wrote:
8O So what you're saying is that a damaged vessel with the original crew still aboard, maybe trying to fix it could be claimed as "salvage" under both modern maritime law, and under Schlockiverse space travel laws? AND stand a good chance of that claim being honored?

If true, that's a only a couple short steps away from out and out piracy.


There are some requirements, here are the two imperfect samples I know of:

1. None of the ship's officers (captain, first officer, chief engineer, etc) are aboard. Deck hands and passengers do not count. In this case the ship is considered abandoned. Deck hands and passengers are legally cargo.

2. The ship's master or his legal successor surrender the ship. These days, the ship´s owner are required to surrender the ship. Before the age of satellite communications, the captain as a representative of the ship's owners had the authority to surrender the ship. In this case, the owner/captain are clearly indicating that they cannot control the ship and it requires a third party to save it.

In either case, the ship's owner DO NOT relinquish ownership. What happens is that a maritime court adjudicates salvage fees based on several factors. This called NO CURE - NO PAY:

"NO CURE - NO PAY

The first modern text of the Lloyd’s Standard Form of Salvage Agreement (universally known as Lloyd’s Open Form, or LOF) was adopted in 1892. By 1908 the text had been standardised. Since then LOF has undergone 11 revisions; the current edition is LOF 2011, introduced in January 2011 (see ‘The Origins of Lloyd’s Form’ for a history of LOF).

The LOF contract continues to evolve, to meet changing circumstances and new concerns. Most recently, and since the ratification of the International Convention on Salvage 1989, the priority is given to protection of the marine environment.

LOF is the most widely used “no cure-no pay” salvage contract. In return for salvage services, the salvor receives a proportion of the “salved value” (the value of the ship, its bunkers, cargo and freight at risk). Traditionally, reward depends upon success and the recovery of property. In the past, if there was no recovery, there was no payment, whatever the expense of the operation. This has changed in recent years, to reflect the public interest in prevention of damage to the environment. The salvor can now contract in such a way that he is shielded from loss when responding to high risk or low value casualties.

There are various alternative “national” forms of salvage contract, such as the Japanese Form, Beijing Form, Moscow Form and Turkish Form. LOF, however, remains the internationally preferred contract. Since the year 2000, ISU members have performed around 1,000 LOF operations with a total salved value of just under US$20 billion. A further 2,000 salvage operations were conducted on other terms and some 1,200 wreck removal operations were completed. These figures show an active industry essential to the protection of the environment and mitigating the losses of shipowners and their insurers.

LOF is administered in London by Lloyd’s Salvage Arbitration Branch. The contract is designed to encourage instant action to save ships and cargoes, by avoiding delays that might otherwise arise from protracted commercial negotiations. The resolution of disputes, together with the assessment of the salvage award, is deferred until the salvage task is completed. The parties can get on with the job, safe in the knowledge that, at the end of the day, there will be a fair and just conclusion.
There are around 50-80 LOF cases notified to Lloyd’s each year of which only 25%, on average, are arbitrated. The majority are settled commercially, on an amicable basis, usually with a significant saving in both expense and time. ISU members are expected to be realistic in their security demands and Award/Settlement expectations in cases involving modest and straightforward salvage services.

The salvage award, a proportion of the salved value of the property recovered by the salvor, is fixed by an experienced Arbitrator appointed from a panel of Lloyd’s Salvage Arbitrators. The Arbitrator applies an internationally accepted set of criteria in order to assess the award. The criteria take account of many factors, including: the degree of danger; the value of the property salved; the skill and effort in preventing damage to the environment; the expenses incurred; the level of service provided; and the salvor’s long term investment in tugs and other vessels and equipment which may be required on an infrequent basis."

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:10 pm 
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macnut wrote:
ChowGuy wrote:
FreeFlier wrote:
Under current maritime law, yes.


Given Tagon's reaction to the term, apparently under Schlockiverse law as well.


8O So what you're saying is that a damaged vessel with the original crew still aboard, maybe trying to fix it could be claimed as "salvage" under both modern maritime law, and under Schlockiverse space travel laws? AND stand a good chance of that claim being honored?

If true, that's a only a couple short steps away from out and out piracy.


From my reading, it's as bad as you surmise. Apparently boat operators have had nasty surprises when a simple tow turns out to be, technically, a salvage operation.
I dug this up via Google. https://offshorerisk.com/en/knowledge-b ... d-salvage/ and https://www.boatingmag.com/tow-or-salvage

Heck, remember Sparticus? http://www.fsmitha.com/bits/bit-crassus.htm https://denverfirefightersmuseum.blogsp ... hting.html


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:34 pm 
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macnut wrote:

8O So what you're saying is that a damaged vessel with the original crew still aboard, maybe trying to fix it could be claimed as "salvage" under both modern maritime law, and under Schlockiverse space travel laws? AND stand a good chance of that claim being honored?

If true, that's a only a couple short steps away from out and out piracy.



If your boat or ship is at risk of sinking or blocking sea lanes and requires help to move then it's salvage. When you write off a car do you demand the remains be dumped on your drive way or do you call the insurance firm?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:35 pm 
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ushio wrote:
macnut wrote:

8O So what you're saying is that a damaged vessel with the original crew still aboard, maybe trying to fix it could be claimed as "salvage" under both modern maritime law, and under Schlockiverse space travel laws? AND stand a good chance of that claim being honored?

If true, that's a only a couple short steps away from out and out piracy.



If your boat or ship is at risk of sinking or blocking sea lanes and requires help to move then it's salvage. When you write off a car do you demand the remains be dumped on your drive way or do you call the insurance firm?

There's a difference between a currently damaged but repairable ship and a written-off car in the simple fact that the ship hasn't been written off. A car whose battery dies, has engine trouble, whatever that requires it being towed does not become salvaged property of the owner of the tow truck.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:47 pm 
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Another thought, wouldn't "salvage" mean it is deemed to have little value - so there is no need to use caution to avoid further damage?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:17 pm 
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grahamf wrote:
Another thought, wouldn't "salvage" mean it is deemed to have little value - so there is no need to use caution to avoid further damage?

Colloquially, it means "this situation isn't quite going as we hoped, so let's see what we can get out of it anyway." And since you could conceivably be salvaging a Spanish galleon with a full load of bullion, there may be quite a bit of value involved.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:44 pm 
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Value doesn't have anything to do with it. If a ship is wrecked and needs to be rescued by an outside party, then it is salvage. If it can continue under its own power or with repairs made by its own crew, then it's not salvage.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:56 pm 
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Nemoricus wrote:
grahamf wrote:
Another thought, wouldn't "salvage" mean it is deemed to have little value - so there is no need to use caution to avoid further damage?

Colloquially, it means "this situation isn't quite going as we hoped, so let's see what we can get out of it anyway." And since you could conceivably be salvaging a Spanish galleon with a full load of bullion, there may be quite a bit of value involved.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:01 pm 
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"Salvage law is very old and dates back to medieval times, when men went to sea primarily to engage in commerce. A vessel in trouble often carried cargo worth as much or more than the ship itself, and the men attracted by her distress were just as likely to plunder her as to save her. Thus the core principle of salvage law has always been that honest men who risk their own lives and vessels trying to save other vessels should be very well rewarded.

Under current U.S. admiralty law, which conforms to international salvage law as laid out in the Salvage Convention of 1989, assistance rendered another vessel is considered salvage when: 1) the assisted vessel is subject to a reasonable apprehension of marine peril; 2) the assistance is voluntary; and 3) the assistance is successful in whole or part.

A successful salvor is NOT entitled to just keep the salved vessel, under any circumstances, but is entitled to a generous award. The amount of the award, under the law, is based on the following factors:
1) the value of the vessel and its contents after the salvage is complete;
2) the salvor's skill and initiative in minimizing damage to the environment;
3) the degree of success obtained by the salvor;
4) the level of peril to which the salvaged vessel was subject;
5) the salvor's skill and initiative in saving the vessel, human lives, and other property;
6) the salvor's labor and expenses;
7) the amount of risk run by the salvor;
8) the promptness of the services rendered;
9) the availability and use of any alternative salvage resources; and
10) the readiness, efficiency, and value of the salvor's vessel and equipment.

Consider all these factors together, and you'll note they strongly favor the salvor. The idea being that salvors should not only be compensated for their time and trouble; they should also receive a substantial premium as an inducement to render assistance in the first place. In a "low-order" salvage, where the risk to a salvor is negligible and the salvaged vessel was in little danger, the premium will be relatively small, but in a "high-order" salvage the total award can, under the law, be as high as (though it may not exceed) 100 percent of the value of the salvaged vessel and its contents. Also, salvors automatically get a high-priority lien on any vessel they save and may keep the vessel until the owner posts security.

This, of course, is where the misconception come from. If you are entitled to an award equaling 100 percent of the value of a vessel, some owners and most insurers may well propose that you simply keep the vessel, as this saves them the administrative and transactional costs of selling it to pay you off. Even if you don't want the vessel, they can force the situation by not paying you, thereby compelling you to seize the boat."

Salvage Law, Do you get to keep an abandoned boat?

Maritime laws are the oldest extant laws in the world. Although modernized, still many customs and practices remain the same after literally hundreds of years.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:33 pm 
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That's pretty accurate.


Further, in the event that the vessel is returned to service before payment negotiations break down, the salvor may then enter a claim with a competent court and obtain a writ of arrest . . . when the vessel next enters a port recognizing the authority of said court, the vessel - not the crew, officers or owners - is arrested and may not leave port nor discharge cargo until a bond has been posted equal to the amount in dispute (or, of course, the amount in dispute is paid).

Of course, IIRC, the owners may choose to surrender the vessel and cargo in lieu of payment . . . I believe that in that case, the value of the vessel and cargo is all that the salvor gets.

There are also fixed-price or fixed-rate salvage contracts . . . but both parties are bound by those, and irrespective of the actual costs . . . which has on occasion resulted in much larger bills than the LOF would have.


As far as the car-towing comparison, if the towing company impounds your car for any reason, including nonpayment of towing fees (they usually won't unhook until you've paid) and you don't pay the hookup fee, towing fees, impound fees and storage fees, they obtain title to your car and will sell it at auction. I've bought cars that way.

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