The Nightstar Zoo

Nightstar IRC Network - irc.nightstar.net
It is currently Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:05 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: loose particles
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:19 pm 
Offline
Aquarium Exhibit
Aquarium Exhibit
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:52 pm
Posts: 30
Here's something I was wondering about.

I feel like if you got matter down to absolute zero, the subatomic particles would completely de-energize and simply come apart, leaving you with a pile of loose protons, neutrons, and electrons.

The question is not about that, but about this pile. Once it 'warms up', what would happen? As energy seeps back in from the surrounding world, and these things kick back to life, what would that do?

I'd hardly think they'd just stay there like that; I picture them recombining, perhaps at random, into elements. Would this release a lot of energy?

I really have no idea, help me science peeps.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loose particles
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 12:29 am 
Offline
Arctic Exhibit
Arctic Exhibit

Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:03 am
Posts: 98
Location: SoCal
Our classic "Temperature" value, if I understand correctly, is a measure of energy that an atom/molecule has in addition to its binding / innate energies.
It is (I think) how much the thing is vibrating.
Abs zero is no vibration. Still has (possible) static charge, gravity, mass, etc. Maybe still has kinetic energy of linear velocity?
Now why something that's vibrating about itself emits energy, idk.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loose particles
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:29 am 
Offline
Entertainment
Entertainment

Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:40 pm
Posts: 712
Location: Land of the webbed feet
I'm not sure what would happen, but I doubt it would release energy . . . unless it happened to configure as a radioactive element and decay.

--FreeFlier


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loose particles
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:19 pm 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:50 pm
Posts: 279
jmaechtlen wrote:
Our classic "Temperature" value, if I understand correctly, is a measure of energy that an atom/molecule has in addition to its binding / innate energies.
It is (I think) how much the thing is vibrating.
Abs zero is no vibration. Still has (possible) static charge, gravity, mass, etc. Maybe still has kinetic energy of linear velocity?
Now why something that's vibrating about itself emits energy, idk.


Temperature has two definitions, the older (kinetic) one is based on average energy per degree of freedom and is the one you're describing, kinetic temperature basically measures the energy of small motions within the mass. A particle at a temperature of X will have 1/2*Boltzmann constant*Temperature as the kinetic energy along any path of motion available (including internal vibrations). This doesn't work with quantum mechanics, where energies are discrete.

The more modern thermodynamic definition is based on the partial derivative of entropy with respect to internal energy.

Vibrating objects emit energy because there are charged particles in the vibrating object, and accelerating a charge particle makes it generate EM radiation. This is how X-rays are usually generated (by making electrons accelerate quickly), and similarly how a radio works, you change the speed with which electrons are traveling in a wire and they radiate.

Hot objects move electrons from one state to another, and they radiate when they decay to a lower energy state.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loose particles
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:03 pm 
Offline
Entertainment
Entertainment
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:02 am
Posts: 788
Malapterus wrote:
Here's something I was wondering about.

I feel like if you got matter down to absolute zero, the subatomic particles would completely de-energize and simply come apart, leaving you with a pile of loose protons, neutrons, and electrons.

The question is not about that, but about this pile. Once it 'warms up', what would happen? As energy seeps back in from the surrounding world, and these things kick back to life, what would that do?

I'd hardly think they'd just stay there like that; I picture them recombining, perhaps at random, into elements. Would this release a lot of energy?

I really have no idea, help me science peeps.

The sub-atomic particles don't come apart, they actually collapse closer together. It turns out that 'solid' matter is more like a collection of springs: when the temperature drops low enough, the 'spring' collapses (shrinks?), and the electrons and protons and even entire atoms fall together. (They don't actually fall, but it's a decent metaphor.)

There is some weirdness that happens at these very low temperatures, resulting either from the particles being able to occupy the same state (see Bose-Einstein condensate), or being unable to occupy the same state (see Fermonic condensate). This weirdness takes the form of behavior like atoms that suddenly stop being separate individuals, collapsing together and become overlapping and indistinguishable from each other, yet still occupy a volume of space. Or the atom nuclei staying separate, but the electrons collapsing in a similar way, sloshing around in the sub-atomic space between atoms. This causes things like superfluids and superconductivity.

As the temperature rises, the 'springs' become more active and simply resume being normal matter. Rather boring. But if I keep cranking up the temperature, eventually the particles will blow apart and make that pile you were imaging. So it's actually with high temperature, not low temperature, that protons and electrons fall apart. Protons and neutrons are harder to break apart, so a mechanism other than temperature is needed. Usually, this is done by shooting particles at each other.

To answer the question about energy: yes! Electrons and protons and neutrons coming together releases a lot of energy, and it makes new elements. However, as mentioned earlier, cold temperatures doesn't make subatomic particles come apart. Instead, for this to happen really high temperatures and really high pressures are needed.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loose particles
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:11 am 
Offline
Arctic Exhibit
Arctic Exhibit

Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:53 pm
Posts: 99
Really high temperatures and really high pressures is also how you assemble atoms into heavier atoms.

Fun fact - superfluid helium-4 does it’s super-fluid thing before helium-3 because of Bose-Einstein condensate related shenanigans (or so claims wiki, but I like the idea that the two are related)

If I follow the whole uncertainty principle thing, and succeed in cooling down something to absolute zero, do I in fact recreate in micro the infinite improbability drive from hitchhikers guide? By knowing absolutely how fast the atom is going, it would imply that I cannot know anything about it’s position, in other words, the atom would be at all points in the universe at once.

Then again, physics is not my strong suit. I just like thinking without standard limits, and an object, however small, that is everywhere sounds cool.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loose particles
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:20 pm 
Offline
Aquarium Exhibit
Aquarium Exhibit
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:52 pm
Posts: 30
The reason I am talking about the atoms coming apart is based on it being a zero energy state, versus a very low energy state. There's nothing left to hold them together, and so they come apart with no fission reaction. I could be full of crap, though.

The concept here involves taking something down to absolute zero and then immediately leaving it in a normal environment. I'm just trying to figure out what would happen to matter if it was hit by some hypothetical 'absolute zero beam'


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loose particles
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:40 pm 
Offline
Entertainment
Entertainment
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:02 am
Posts: 788
Malapterus wrote:
The reason I am talking about the atoms coming apart is based on it being a zero energy state, versus a very low energy state. There's nothing left to hold them together, and so they come apart with no fission reaction. I could be full of crap, though.

The concept here involves taking something down to absolute zero and then immediately leaving it in a normal environment. I'm just trying to figure out what would happen to matter if it was hit by some hypothetical 'absolute zero beam'

Well, there's absolute zero temperature, meaning no translational energy, and then there is a zero energy state. It is important to distinguish between those, since matter is really energy with an identity crisis. Zero energy implies zero matter which implies there is no particle at all. So a 'zero energy beam' would make the particle disappear, and I don't know what would happen from there. But I haven't finished my quantum mechanics training yet, so I don't know too much about that specific case. It is very interesting to think about, come back to me in about a year. :lol:

But we could also talk about no energy being there, except what is bound up in matter. Like I mentioned earlier, when matter gets to really low energy it doesn't fall apart, but rather 'falls together', taking on weird and strange forms.

At this idea of no energy (except matter), I don't know what would happen, as particle physics is not my field. But that doesn't stop me from making a guess! I think what would happen is the particles would all join together into one undefinable mass, becoming an 'elementary particle soup', made out of quarks and leptons. When it is left in a normal environment, this state would collapse and the 'soup' would reform into real particles. As the particles form, I would guess that they would shape into the easiest forms available, namely electrons, protons, and neutrons: in other words, it would form various flavors of hydrogen.

So my speculation is: if I were to hit something with an 'absolute zero beam', it would briefly become a bizarre state, a 'super-superfluid', and then poof into hydrogen.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loose particles
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:03 pm 
Offline
Entertainment
Entertainment

Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:40 pm
Posts: 712
Location: Land of the webbed feet
Now that is the ultimate garbage disposal!

--FreeFlier


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: loose particles
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:56 am 
Offline
Monkey House Exhibit
Monkey House Exhibit

Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:10 am
Posts: 486
I don't know if this is related or not, but there's a thing called the 'quantum foam' and it's related to zero-point energy.

See, there's constantly quantum particles popping into existence in a vacuum, but a HUGE amount of the time, they pop into existence at the same time with their own antiparticle, and thus they spin about and cancel each other out. A constant froth of infinitessimally small 'bubbles' of particles and antiparticles forming and 'popping'. But occasionally these two particles DON'T contact one another again, leading to an incredibly tiny increase of energy.

.....this almost certainly has nothing to do with the question or anything related to it, but it's fascinating nonetheless, I think. :3


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group