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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:38 pm 
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Assuming this isn't just a throwaway joke, he may be getting to the point that the entities in Eina-Afa do NOT in fact have any rightful claim, as they are not the owners but instead copies. This is especially pertinent given the existence of the "soul foils" who could also claim to be the owners. If an upload and a soul foil of the same Oafan are "resurrected", which one is the rightful owner of whatever stuff they owned prior to death? Up until now they have been reviving Soul Foils who have apparently been OK with what the Toughs have been doing. When the soul foils and the mind uploads disagree on that, who wins?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:34 am 
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Maybe he's also getting at the "What did we do?!" aspect.

Someone needs to inform him that the whole "She's killing people and forcable uploading them" was, in fact, reviewed by her peers who not only approved, but wanted her to be much, much faster :-).

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:57 am 
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sotanaht wrote:
Assuming this isn't just a throwaway joke, he may be getting to the point that the entities in Eina-Afa do NOT in fact have any rightful claim, as they are not the owners but instead copies.
Except if they're copies then Tagon doesn't have rightful claim over the ships EITHER because he's been killed and copied already too, along with a whole bunch of the crew.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:43 am 
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Reaver225 wrote:
sotanaht wrote:
Assuming this isn't just a throwaway joke, he may be getting to the point that the entities in Eina-Afa do NOT in fact have any rightful claim, as they are not the owners but instead copies.
Except if they're copies then Tagon doesn't have rightful claim over the ships EITHER because he's been killed and copied already too, along with a whole bunch of the crew.


Well they're probably not going to go that route. But Tagon's case is different. When he died his shares would probably have gone back to the company or his dad. Then when he was revived they could have reissued the shares to him. There is a chain of continuity there.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:32 am 
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There are a wide variety of possible legal stuctures that could differentiate the scenarios. The most relevant possibility is that if they were uploaded prior to death, then both the uploaded and non-uploaded versions could have been living persons simultaneously and it is quite possible only one would be the owner during that period. If that was the non-uploaded version, then the owner died and the uploaded version only has ownership rights if they inherited. Which depending on the laws considered applicable could mean they actually didn't own it at the time of Tagon's arrival. Probably they're still the heir, but it'd potentially impact their rights to do anything beyond getting it back.

The other question is whether adverse possession applies. Usually if someone else controls your property for a sufficently long time and you don't do anything about it then it becomes their property. However, these laws are intended for the case where you know they're using it and can tell them to stop, and you have to not take the opportunity for an exceedingly long time. It is likely that laws drafted by civilizations where mind uploading is a regular thing would cover this scenario, but for most of the duration of the hivemind's control of the station galactic law was created by civilizations that did not have uploading. So it is reasonably likely that UNS law would consider the hivemind the rightful owner. Which law code should be applied is fuzzy because the Oafans have governmental continuity in some form but are not signatories of any treaties that would regulate which laws are applicable and were not recognized as a state by any other extant state. So non-Oafan law would treat it as a vessel in deep space not registered with any government. The wrinkle is that as a practical matter no government can actually enforce intersteller law on the Oafans. However, they're probably going to want to write a treaty that specifically resolves this case in order to get a clear title as far as interstellar banks are concerned. I would anticipate a settlement where Tagon drops his claim in return for a pile of money. Easiest for everyone and he'd probably be content with a pile that does not represent a significant fraction of their assets.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:49 am 
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(name here) wrote:
The wrinkle is that as a practical matter no government can actually enforce intersteller law on the Oafans. However, they're probably going to want to write a treaty that specifically resolves this case in order to get a clear title as far as interstellar banks are concerned. I would anticipate a settlement where Tagon drops his claim in return for a pile of money. Easiest for everyone and he'd probably be content with a pile that does not represent a significant fraction of their assets.


Actually consider that the UNS knows there is a fleet of long gun equipped ships on Eina-Afa no matter who controls them, which are an existential threat to the UNS and everyone else. And the UNS has a fleet of heavily stealthed/jammed carbon class battleplates headed towards Eina-Afa.

Now it hasn't actually been stated what the UNS plans to do with that fleet of carbon class battleplates, but I think intergalactic treaties will be enforced by the end of all this.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:56 am 
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That assumes the UNS fleet can defeat the Oafans. I do not think they'd be able to defeat Eina-Afa at full strength. Depending on how much of its defenses and ships are presently unusable due to the recent fighting, that could change, but it's likely that if the UNS takes the station they'll sieze or destroy everything of significant value and render the issue moot.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:08 pm 
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Either way, it looks like this is the beginning of the end of the Toughs' association with the Oafans. Whether they are simply evicted or bought out by the revived Oafans, or kicked out by the invading UNS, I think the Toughs are going to be lucky if they get out of this with more than a couple of warships - and all their crew (depending on the timing of the apparently impending UNS invasion, some of the Toughs may not be revived in time).

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:16 pm 
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A big thing to keep in mind is that probably no one had this exact scenario in mind when writing their laws. The Oafans probably considered all the relevant technologies allowing this situation, but they'd still write laws on the assumption that there would be an Oafan government out and active. So there'd be some coherent procedure to declare someone presumed dead without backups and then a process for what to do if they turned up afterwards. And probably if there was a million-year gap the resolution would not be "give it back without compensating the people who have it now." Modern civilizations as of when the Toughs arrived did not have upload tech of the necessary type. They'd have some related precedent from gateclones, but it's unlikely any recovered gateclones would have been around long enough to consider how they'd interact with long-term issues. The original would have been alive recently enough none of the normal clocks would have run out.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:20 pm 
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macnut wrote:
Either way, it looks like this is the beginning of the end of the Toughs' association with the Oafans. Whether they are simply evicted or bought out by the revived Oafans, or kicked out by the invading UNS, I think the Toughs are going to be lucky if they get out of this with more than a couple of warships - and all their crew (depending on the timing of the apparently impending UNS invasion, some of the Toughs may not be revived in time).

That seems to be a common theme.

The Toughs led to the creation of the psychobear
The Toughs created Lota who controls the long gun Credomar
The Toughs have now awoken an ancient race with ships of impossible value

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:29 pm 
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(name here) wrote:
That assumes the UNS fleet can defeat the Oafans. I do not think they'd be able to defeat Eina-Afa at full strength. Depending on how much of its defenses and ships are presently unusable due to the recent fighting, that could change, but it's likely that if the UNS takes the station they'll sieze or destroy everything of significant value and render the issue moot.


The Oafans have the same problem with bringing ships back online that Chinook did. They simply don't have the power to jumpstart them all. And while Chinook had a fairly effective defense grid a lot of it was scattered around the galaxy relying on long gun artillery. And Crazy Chinook still controls that.

The Oafans have whatever ships Chinook actually had in the system and maybe a few more. But consider that the UNS had an active embassy on Eina-Afa for months. They've had time to observe the situation and tailor a response force to it. And whatever else the UNS might be they are a galactic great power. They have a lot of resources. Including their own long guns if it comes to that. Remember that everything that Chinook was able to bring online was jumpstarted off the back of a UNS battleplate. The UNS had a lot more battleplates to build with at that point of time.

All that and it's not even taking into account what the Hive minds might be doing. They probably aren't keen on the Oafans coming in and just taking over either.

I mean how would we feel if some super AIs woke up in the core of Earth and said, "Oh we actually built this planet a few billion years ago. It's ours now sorry."

I actually doubt it's going to be a slug fest though. The UNS don't want the Oafans shooting off their long guns. And the Oafans don't want the UNS wrecking their last remaining sanctuary. And while they haven't shown the ability to talk to each other, they have talked with Petey and Putzho. It's probably going to come down to a lot of very tense negotiation.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:38 pm 
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I feel reasonably confident that if the UNS had been able to take Eina-Afa from Chinook they would have done so. It'a not clear if Chinook going crazy has weakened the station enough to change that. They're out some but I think not all of their long guns and some percentage of station systems are damaged, quarantined, or run by a less-effective AI.

I think the hivemind has a moral basis to claim some form of property rights, but it is reasonably probable they won't have a legal basis. And the Oafans also have a moral basis to claim ownership. And Tagon obtained ownership as a result of some form of agreement with people he believed were the legitimate owners on an objectively reasonable basis. The laws that would normally handle this situation go all screwy because the Oafans were physically incapable of contacting the hivemind to assert their ownership for a far longer period than would be expected.

What I think ought to happen is that the Oafans and the hivemind get joint ownership and the agreements between the hivemind and anyone else stand; anything sold off stays sold and any contracts with the hivemind stand unless they have an applicable termination condition. Force Majure could apply.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:05 pm 
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They didn't have time though. The whole Chinook situation was resolved in a matter of hours at most. The fact that the UNS mobilized a fleet and got it moving towards Eina-Afa in that timeframe is actually kind of impressive. But just going in from the edge of the TAD to Eina-Afa would have taken up that whole timeframe. And that's assuming they started as soon as she started firing.

As it is they were jumping in to the edge of the TAD at about the time things were wrapping up.

There's also a question of politics. They probably weren't entirely sure that Chinook was behind the long gun strikes, and you don't want to literally go to war with someone without being sure.

There is also the Neo Oafan Freehold to consider. They consist of the resurrected Oafans, not using soul foils, and at least one resurrected Oafan who was based off a soil foil.

Anyway there's not much point speculating. I'm sure Ennesby will lay it all out in the next few strips.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:55 pm 
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Reaver225 wrote:
sotanaht wrote:
Assuming this isn't just a throwaway joke, he may be getting to the point that the entities in Eina-Afa do NOT in fact have any rightful claim, as they are not the owners but instead copies.
Except if they're copies then Tagon doesn't have rightful claim over the ships EITHER because he's been killed and copied already too, along with a whole bunch of the crew.

The key difference that he MIGHT be getting at is the difference between being uploaded THEN killed, or killed, THEN uploaded. The latter implies that the same entity that was killed was uploaded (regardless of any metaphysical soul argument or whatever), while the former implies that a copy of the still-living Oafin (basically a clone) was uploaded, then the original was killed. The difference is potentially enough to matter in court, even without the fact that the original might still in fact be "alive" or at least returned to life via the soul foil resurrection technique. Tagon and co have always been in the latter category, excepting any wormgate shenanigans.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:13 pm 
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Kevyn's timeclone could in theory raise the same issue, but he became extremely independently wealthy so he had no need to try to get any of other Kevyen's stuff. Of the gateclones of main cast members, only Haban-2 and the Gavs reached civilization while their originals were still alive.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:09 am 
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(name here) wrote:
Kevyn's timeclone could in theory raise the same issue, but he became extremely independently wealthy so he had no need to try to get any of other Kevyen's stuff. Of the gateclones of main cast members, only Haban-2 and the Gavs reached civilization while their originals were still alive.

I'm pretty sure Gavs original died immediately after he cloned himself but I could be misremembering. In the case of Kevyn's timeclone that's more or less the same issue I was trying to point out. The kevyn from the future doesn't have any right to any of the kevyn from this time period's stuff, unless the latter gives it to him. If I'm right about the Gavs, then the clones didn't have any rights to the original Gav's stuff either, which is convenient because dividing up his property however many million times wouldn't have been worth the effort anyway.

Kevyn's gateclone (from the same time as the Gavs) however could be argued to fit into this same category. He was copied, then killed. The duplicate definitely isn't the same person. However, given the fact that he INTENTIONALLY copied himself knowing that he was about to die, I'd say it's fair to assume (outside of court at least) that he intended for his stuff to be passed on to his clone.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:55 am 
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(name here) wrote:
... run by a less-effective AI.

What gives you that idea?



sotanaht wrote:
I'm pretty sure Gavs original died immediately after he cloned himself but I could be misremembering.

Yup. Gav 1.0 died immediately after cloning himself.




sotanaht wrote:
The duplicate definitely isn't the same person.

That debate was never settled.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:47 pm 
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evileeyore wrote:
(name here) wrote:
... run by a less-effective AI.

What gives you that idea?


On a programming level, Chinook was originally created as a dedicated warship AI, and was then modified by Para, who clearly possesses a good deal of technical competence albiet poor judgement, and this has resulted in an AI that is mentally unstable but has previously successfully defeated a battleplate while controlling a cruiser via superior tactical analysis. We're not yet sure what AI ended up in control of the station, but odds are good they did not put a warship AI in exclusive control of a primarily-civilian habitat; it contains a fleet base but is intended for their entire civilization. So it's pretty unlikely the new AI will be as good at combat at Chinook; even if they have a combat AI of that quality (certainly possible but uncertain) it'd probably not get exclusive control over all power generation and computing resources.

Also, some of the computing systems may have been damaged, the computers on the ships Chinook still has are unavaliable, and they might have some of the other computers quarantined for examination in case of any unpleasant surprises Chinook may have left. So overall there's probably less processing power avaliable. They have reconnected the prison, but until they download the prisoners it won't be fully usable.


Quote:
sotanaht wrote:
The duplicate definitely isn't the same person.

That debate was never settled.


The question of whether the gateclone is a continuation of the person who stepped into the gate is unsettled. But Kevyn's gateclone is self-evidently not the same person as the Kevyn who remained in the room. Because the gateclone did not experience activating an improvised gravy gun, while the other Kevyn very briefly did.

Disregarding philosophical issues of that form, from a legal perspective if a gateclone and an original both exist at the same time treating them as the same person becomes incoherent when they disagree. If both try to use their ownership of the same thing in mutually exclusive ways, saying that it is the sole property of a single person and two people are that single person does not produce a sensible result. Legal systems must resolve the question of which of them owns what in some manner. If one of them dies in short order it's pretty obviously going to be the survivor, but a considerable number of gateclones were rescued while the original was still alive, so there must be precedent for that.

The only scenario we've seen specifically addressed was that if the original is convicted of a crime that happened before the gatecloning the gateclone is also considered guilty. But since the original in that case had been convicted of multiple capital crimes and had only been executed once, there was still an unserved death sentence that bypassed the various additional legal issues raised.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:40 pm 
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grahamf wrote:
That seems to be a common theme.

The Toughs led to the creation of the psychobear
The Toughs created Lota who controls the long gun Credomar
The Toughs have now awoken an ancient race with ships of impossible value


You left out:
The Toughs brought about the Terraport War.
The Toughs brought about the Gatekeeper War
The Toughs brought about the Panuri War

Now we're at the Oafan War?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:18 am 
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(name here) wrote:
On a programming level, Chinook was originally created as a dedicated warship AI...

So, pure speculation. Okay.

Quote:
The question of whether the gateclone is a continuation of the person who stepped into the gate is unsettled. But Kevyn's gateclone is self-evidently not the same person as the Kevyn who remained in the room.

Only because one died.




keybounce wrote:
Now we're at the Oafan War?

Nah, this is the Chinook Longgun Cluster-Fuck. Probably going to last far longer than a war...


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:56 pm 
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(name here) wrote:
evileeyore wrote:
(name here) wrote:
... run by a less-effective AI.

What gives you that idea?


On a programming level, Chinook was originally created as a dedicated warship AI, and was then modified by Para, who clearly possesses a good deal of technical competence albiet poor judgement, and this has resulted in an AI that is mentally unstable but has previously successfully defeated a battleplate while controlling a cruiser via superior tactical analysis. We're not yet sure what AI ended up in control of the station, but odds are good they did not put a warship AI in exclusive control of a primarily-civilian habitat; it contains a fleet base but is intended for their entire civilization. So it's pretty unlikely the new AI will be as good at combat at Chinook; even if they have a combat AI of that quality (certainly possible but uncertain) it'd probably not get exclusive control over all power generation and computing resources.

Also, some of the computing systems may have been damaged, the computers on the ships Chinook still has are unavaliable, and they might have some of the other computers quarantined for examination in case of any unpleasant surprises Chinook may have left. So overall there's probably less processing power avaliable. They have reconnected the prison, but until they download the prisoners it won't be fully usable.


Quote:
sotanaht wrote:
The duplicate definitely isn't the same person.

That debate was never settled.


The question of whether the gateclone is a continuation of the person who stepped into the gate is unsettled. But Kevyn's gateclone is self-evidently not the same person as the Kevyn who remained in the room. Because the gateclone did not experience activating an improvised gravy gun, while the other Kevyn very briefly did.

Disregarding philosophical issues of that form, from a legal perspective if a gateclone and an original both exist at the same time treating them as the same person becomes incoherent when they disagree. If both try to use their ownership of the same thing in mutually exclusive ways, saying that it is the sole property of a single person and two people are that single person does not produce a sensible result. Legal systems must resolve the question of which of them owns what in some manner. If one of them dies in short order it's pretty obviously going to be the survivor, but a considerable number of gateclones were rescued while the original was still alive, so there must be precedent for that.

The only scenario we've seen specifically addressed was that if the original is convicted of a crime that happened before the gatecloning the gateclone is also considered guilty. But since the original in that case had been convicted of multiple capital crimes and had only been executed once, there was still an unserved death sentence that bypassed the various additional legal issues raised.


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There is no reason to believe Chinook was more of a tactical genius, while in that hardware, than any other AI that is run on it.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:41 am 
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evileeyore wrote:

Quote:
The question of whether the gateclone is a continuation of the person who stepped into the gate is unsettled. But Kevyn's gateclone is self-evidently not the same person as the Kevyn who remained in the room.

Only because one died.


If they'd both survived it would be evident they're different people due to their divergent experiences. This becomes more obvious with the Gavs, who exist in sufficent numbers for a sufficent duration the divergence in their experiences became notable. Even granting that the RED rewrites made those Gavs different people, some Gavs chose to undergo them and others chose not to. Kevyn's timeclone also doesn't behave identically to the other Kevyn, but the fact that his initial divergence is from events that no longer happened makes it somewhat distinct from variations in events that still have happened.


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