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The Nightstar Zoo • View topic - September 7, 2018 Uploaded and Killed

The Nightstar Zoo

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:38 pm 
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Assuming this isn't just a throwaway joke, he may be getting to the point that the entities in Eina-Afa do NOT in fact have any rightful claim, as they are not the owners but instead copies. This is especially pertinent given the existence of the "soul foils" who could also claim to be the owners. If an upload and a soul foil of the same Oafan are "resurrected", which one is the rightful owner of whatever stuff they owned prior to death? Up until now they have been reviving Soul Foils who have apparently been OK with what the Toughs have been doing. When the soul foils and the mind uploads disagree on that, who wins?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:34 am 
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Maybe he's also getting at the "What did we do?!" aspect.

Someone needs to inform him that the whole "She's killing people and forcable uploading them" was, in fact, reviewed by her peers who not only approved, but wanted her to be much, much faster :-).

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:57 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:43 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:32 am 
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There are a wide variety of possible legal stuctures that could differentiate the scenarios. The most relevant possibility is that if they were uploaded prior to death, then both the uploaded and non-uploaded versions could have been living persons simultaneously and it is quite possible only one would be the owner during that period. If that was the non-uploaded version, then the owner died and the uploaded version only has ownership rights if they inherited. Which depending on the laws considered applicable could mean they actually didn't own it at the time of Tagon's arrival. Probably they're still the heir, but it'd potentially impact their rights to do anything beyond getting it back.

The other question is whether adverse possession applies. Usually if someone else controls your property for a sufficently long time and you don't do anything about it then it becomes their property. However, these laws are intended for the case where you know they're using it and can tell them to stop, and you have to not take the opportunity for an exceedingly long time. It is likely that laws drafted by civilizations where mind uploading is a regular thing would cover this scenario, but for most of the duration of the hivemind's control of the station galactic law was created by civilizations that did not have uploading. So it is reasonably likely that UNS law would consider the hivemind the rightful owner. Which law code should be applied is fuzzy because the Oafans have governmental continuity in some form but are not signatories of any treaties that would regulate which laws are applicable and were not recognized as a state by any other extant state. So non-Oafan law would treat it as a vessel in deep space not registered with any government. The wrinkle is that as a practical matter no government can actually enforce intersteller law on the Oafans. However, they're probably going to want to write a treaty that specifically resolves this case in order to get a clear title as far as interstellar banks are concerned. I would anticipate a settlement where Tagon drops his claim in return for a pile of money. Easiest for everyone and he'd probably be content with a pile that does not represent a significant fraction of their assets.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:49 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:56 am 
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That assumes the UNS fleet can defeat the Oafans. I do not think they'd be able to defeat Eina-Afa at full strength. Depending on how much of its defenses and ships are presently unusable due to the recent fighting, that could change, but it's likely that if the UNS takes the station they'll sieze or destroy everything of significant value and render the issue moot.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:08 pm 
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Either way, it looks like this is the beginning of the end of the Toughs' association with the Oafans. Whether they are simply evicted or bought out by the revived Oafans, or kicked out by the invading UNS, I think the Toughs are going to be lucky if they get out of this with more than a couple of warships - and all their crew (depending on the timing of the apparently impending UNS invasion, some of the Toughs may not be revived in time).

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:16 pm 
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A big thing to keep in mind is that probably no one had this exact scenario in mind when writing their laws. The Oafans probably considered all the relevant technologies allowing this situation, but they'd still write laws on the assumption that there would be an Oafan government out and active. So there'd be some coherent procedure to declare someone presumed dead without backups and then a process for what to do if they turned up afterwards. And probably if there was a million-year gap the resolution would not be "give it back without compensating the people who have it now." Modern civilizations as of when the Toughs arrived did not have upload tech of the necessary type. They'd have some related precedent from gateclones, but it's unlikely any recovered gateclones would have been around long enough to consider how they'd interact with long-term issues. The original would have been alive recently enough none of the normal clocks would have run out.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:20 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:29 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:38 pm 
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I feel reasonably confident that if the UNS had been able to take Eina-Afa from Chinook they would have done so. It'a not clear if Chinook going crazy has weakened the station enough to change that. They're out some but I think not all of their long guns and some percentage of station systems are damaged, quarantined, or run by a less-effective AI.

I think the hivemind has a moral basis to claim some form of property rights, but it is reasonably probable they won't have a legal basis. And the Oafans also have a moral basis to claim ownership. And Tagon obtained ownership as a result of some form of agreement with people he believed were the legitimate owners on an objectively reasonable basis. The laws that would normally handle this situation go all screwy because the Oafans were physically incapable of contacting the hivemind to assert their ownership for a far longer period than would be expected.

What I think ought to happen is that the Oafans and the hivemind get joint ownership and the agreements between the hivemind and anyone else stand; anything sold off stays sold and any contracts with the hivemind stand unless they have an applicable termination condition. Force Majure could apply.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:05 pm 
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They didn't have time though. The whole Chinook situation was resolved in a matter of hours at most. The fact that the UNS mobilized a fleet and got it moving towards Eina-Afa in that timeframe is actually kind of impressive. But just going in from the edge of the TAD to Eina-Afa would have taken up that whole timeframe. And that's assuming they started as soon as she started firing.

As it is they were jumping in to the edge of the TAD at about the time things were wrapping up.

There's also a question of politics. They probably weren't entirely sure that Chinook was behind the long gun strikes, and you don't want to literally go to war with someone without being sure.

There is also the Neo Oafan Freehold to consider. They consist of the resurrected Oafans, not using soul foils, and at least one resurrected Oafan who was based off a soil foil.

Anyway there's not much point speculating. I'm sure Ennesby will lay it all out in the next few strips.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:55 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:13 pm 
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Kevyn's timeclone could in theory raise the same issue, but he became extremely independently wealthy so he had no need to try to get any of other Kevyen's stuff. Of the gateclones of main cast members, only Haban-2 and the Gavs reached civilization while their originals were still alive.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:09 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:47 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:40 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:18 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:41 am 
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