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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:08 pm 
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Ah the UNS a fine example of bureaucratic inertia. Where else would you keep your hugely important secret weapon, that can move, in the same place as it was nearly destroyed by foreign powers.

It's not like Jupiter is the only gas giant in the system.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:39 pm 
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Wouldn't help. Heck, that might be why they had time to evacuate -- the new location had to be targeted.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:52 pm 
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Chinook, especially post sequestering Chinook, is not omniscient. She has amazingly good information gathering capabilities, but it ought to be possible to go dark and move in secret. If nothing else by cutting hypernet access. The Toughs literally did this before.

You might still be physically spotted, but they'd have to sweep the whole galaxy to do it. If they had good comm security they ought to have been able to teraport right out of Jupiter with no one the wiser.

Now the fact that Petey hacked right in implies that they do not have good comm security. But at that point why bother hiding in a gas giant at all. If nothing else when you know the enemy has an interstellar artillery you should at least switch locations after being missed.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:09 pm 
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It probably wouldn't be safer in general off somewhere else rather than hiding inside a gas giant within UNS defenses and particularly the massive TAD around Sol. Most particularly it wouldn't be safer from someone boarding and siezing control of it.

However, it seems like it's pretty much immobile; they had sixteen minutes of warning and couldn't evade the shot. Since the drones are apparently seventeen light-minutes out and the UNS fleet will prevent them from getting too much closer, it shouldn't be very hard to stop Chinook from firing inside its shield. And of course teraporting would totally invalidate the targeting data; it shouldn't have been necessary to evacuate given the UNS controls the local TAD.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:34 pm 
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Actually them using a ship to leave does imply that teraporting wasn't an option, which kind of invalidates my theory that it could move. But that does beg the question of why UNS TAD would deny a UNS admiral teraport authority.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:36 pm 
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Sorry, I'm confused - what does TAD have to do with protecting from Long Gun?
Or, are just talking about keeping Chinook's targeting drones at a (clearly too close to be safe) distance?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:17 am 
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jmaechtlen wrote:
Sorry, I'm confused - what does TAD have to do with protecting from Long Gun?
Or, are just talking about keeping Chinook's targeting drones at a (clearly too close to be safe) distance?

Because you forget that there are other threats in the galaxy besides Chinook. While a TAD does little to nothing against a long gun, it does stop any other potentially hostile power from swooping in and capturing it.

I do feel that TADs have become too much a plot device simply to force people to spend time flying around instead of teleporting. It should be something that allows exceptions based on access codes and clearances and therefor should be no obstacle at all to those who are supposed to be there. There was a time where we encountered overlapping TAD fields which made it impossible for anyone to teraport in or out because no one had clearance for all the different TADs, but now that's just become the default state instead, even where it makes no sense.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:15 am 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
Actually them using a ship to leave does imply that teraporting wasn't an option, which kind of invalidates my theory that it could move.

I'm betting either one of two things:

1 - They couldn't teraport in time, IE the teraport drives are locked down and require lengthy unlocking procedures (to keep the longgun from going rogue), or...

2 - UNS longguns aren't built with teraport capability (the above 'going rogue' premise).


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:59 am 
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They need to figure out how Oisri masked it's mass.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:05 pm 
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sotanaht wrote:
I do feel that TADs have become too much a plot device simply to force people to spend time flying around instead of teleporting. It should be something that allows exceptions based on access codes and clearances and therefor should be no obstacle at all to those who are supposed to be there.


Actually that is generally the way it works. Our protagonists, the Toughs, being mercenaries and general outsiders, usually don't have the required access codes and clearances, and so are required to 'port to the edge of a TAD zone and fly the rest of the way in.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:41 pm 
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macnut wrote:
sotanaht wrote:
I do feel that TADs have become too much a plot device simply to force people to spend time flying around instead of teleporting. It should be something that allows exceptions based on access codes and clearances and therefor should be no obstacle at all to those who are supposed to be there.


Actually that is generally the way it works. Our protagonists, the Toughs, being mercenaries and general outsiders, usually don't have the required access codes and clearances, and so are required to 'port to the edge of a TAD zone and fly the rest of the way in.

Yes, but here we have the military doing the same thing. While there may be an explanation in this case, I feel that the author might have fallen into the trap of forgetting that what makes sense for the main characters does NOT necessarily make sense for everyone else.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:00 pm 
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sotanaht wrote:
macnut wrote:
sotanaht wrote:
I do feel that TADs have become too much a plot device simply to force people to spend time flying around instead of teleporting. It should be something that allows exceptions based on access codes and clearances and therefor should be no obstacle at all to those who are supposed to be there.


Actually that is generally the way it works. Our protagonists, the Toughs, being mercenaries and general outsiders, usually don't have the required access codes and clearances, and so are required to 'port to the edge of a TAD zone and fly the rest of the way in.

Yes, but here we have the military doing the same thing. While there may be an explanation in this case, I feel that the author might have fallen into the trap of forgetting that what makes sense for the main characters does NOT necessarily make sense for everyone else.


Red tape takes longer to clear than the lifeboat takes to load? If that longer is a quarter of an hour, that's probably too long.
That said, if they did have TAD clearance, the first terraport units were handheld, and would presumably continue to work on a "ship" this size. A terrapedo could probably provide the necessary hardware, without any lengthy setup time.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:43 am 
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sotanaht wrote:
Yes, but here we have the military doing the same thing.

Do we? I'd like to see some proof of this.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:00 pm 
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It's pretty much certain that they'd have teraported out if TAD allowed. Even if it wasn't already equipped to teraport, it'd be very easy to teraport in the necessary equipment.

Most likely there's several different UNS TAD networks and it is difficult to rapidly obtain clearance for all of them. Until quite recently, it would be reasonable to make teraporting in or out of Jupiter very difficult, with multiple layers of highly redundant systems. The risk of equipment failure, sabotage, or treason allowing a terapedo attack would be judged more significant than the risk of needing to hastily evacuate Jupiter and being unable to do so. Add in the fact that the UNS has a massive bueracracy, multiple competing factions, and residual paranoia from the recent attack on their center of government via subverted security forces, and the TAD clearance process is likely far longer than necessary.

It's also pretty easy to raise a TAD to trap hostile forces over a large area, but if that had happened the UNS would probably have noticed immediately and responded.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:22 pm 
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(name here) wrote:
It's pretty much certain that they'd have teraported out if TAD allowed.

... and they had a teraport.

There is no evidence they actually had the station or the evac ship equipped with a teraport. And good reasons to not equip them.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:26 pm 
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evileeyore wrote:
(name here) wrote:
It's pretty much certain that they'd have teraported out if TAD allowed.

... and they had a teraport.

There is no evidence they actually had the station or the evac ship equipped with a teraport. And good reasons to not equip them.


But again, the first terraports were done using small volumes of equipment. I think a single terrapedo could have provided all it took to take the entire ship, and its crew, to a safe spot.
If they could have terraported at all.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:32 pm 
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If nothing else Lota was able to evacuate an entire apartment building in a few seconds once the TAD was down. No matter how many people were in that installation I think 17 minutes would be ample time for a single teraport equipped unit to take them all out.

And once TAD was down that single teraport unit could have come from literally anywhere in the galaxy so it's not like they needed it to actually be on hand.

Plus we've seen the UNS use teraport lifepods before. So they have the technology.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:22 pm 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
So they have the technology.

Which is why my suspicions are "Didn't have them installed and would prefer to lose the installation than to let it be teraported".


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:31 pm 
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They could teraport in a teraport device if TAD weren't an issue. And they could teraport the station to another location within Sol if they had the access codes. So the only reasons not to teraport would be if they were within a TAD they did not have the codes for or if they could not place a hypernet call to anyone with a trustworthy teraport. The UNS fleet has teraports reliable enough to trust their battleplates to.

Theoretically they could have decided they just didn't feel like moving their precious secret weapons project a couple dozen kilometers and would rather it get blown up, but I seriously doubt that.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:38 pm 
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You all are talking like a Long-gun is a precious object, that is difficult to replace.

It's not. Compared to, say, a battleplate, long-guns are cheap. What is difficult to replace is the people and knowledge for building them. And what is unacceptable is letting one fall into enemy hands, letting that enemy learn to build one themselves.

With that in mind, it makes much more sense to just let it be blown up, rather than teraport it to an unsecured location.

That being said, the UNS really should of had a list of secure locations for emergency teraports, especially after that near miss.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:28 am 
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The UNS Long Gun was still an experimental prototype. They can build a new one, but it's still liable to be rather expensive. And they have an enormous list of secure locations, because they could simply teraport it anywhere else in Sol. Even somewhere else inside Jupiter would cause Chinook to miss; it just needs to move more than its length within the lightspeed lag to keep a Long Gun shot from emerging within its shields.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:51 pm 
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I think, in context, it makes sense that the UNS didn't teleport. So far, the Admiralty has been portrayed as being foolish, with a few exceptions. This is the same group that had a a freak-out over long-guns and begun issuing irrational orders.

With that in mind, it is consistent for the UNS Admiralty to not have countermeasures in place against long-gun strikes. Maybe this expensive (but not cripplingly so) lesson will teach them.

Or maybe they will just send out another round of irrational orders. Bureaucracy can be like that.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:01 pm 
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My money is on bad TAD policy. I think they've been going overboard from the very beginning; they could cut out a lot of travel time by having a gap in the TAD around the asteroid belt with a couple battleplates on watch. Any arriving threat would still be light-minutes from any sensitive target, and standby TAD generators could ensure it's a one-way trip. It wouldn't necessarily even need to be a total gap; there could be a rotating access code issued to authorized traffic. Said authorized traffic could relay it to unauthorized traffic and jump in simultaneously, but it'd complicate logistics and deter opportunistic attacks.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:08 pm 
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It's only been a few years at most since the teraport was invented. I wouldn't be surprised if they are still working out tactics and appropriate security regulations.

Bear in mind that the teraport is not a mature technology. Someone invents a new kind of teraport gate everyone other book. It might have been overshadowed by the long guns, but the Oafan world movers freaked the admiralty out once they realized each one was basically a fleet invasion waiting to happen.

And now that it's known to be possible it probably won't stay restricted to the Oafans for long.

Combine that with long gun spotters and you can see how the viewpoint forms that letting anybody in at all is a terrible risk.

---

All that said that's just for emergency teraports. I still think leaving the long gun in Jupiter after it had been fired on once was bad planning.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:01 am 
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(name here) wrote:
My money is on bad TAD policy. I think they've been going overboard from the very beginning; they could cut out a lot of travel time by having a gap in the TAD around the asteroid belt with a couple battleplates on watch. Any arriving threat would still be light-minutes from any sensitive target, and standby TAD generators could ensure it's a one-way trip. It wouldn't necessarily even need to be a total gap; there could be a rotating access code issued to authorized traffic. Said authorized traffic could relay it to unauthorized traffic and jump in simultaneously, but it'd complicate logistics and deter opportunistic attacks.


What they should do is have a ferry system. A point outside the TAD where something that can jump in a whole fleet at once, and has the authorization to do so, waits to collect that hours "take".
Basically don't give out TAD exemption, use your own terraport that has TAD exemption.
...After doing a full scan for hostile elements.
And anyone driving in the long, slow, way is exhibiting suspicious behavior.

Results? Security is tighter even than making people come in under normal drive from the edge of the Oort cloud. Travel is faster.

Of course, you may want to jam all hyperlink comms, and force all electronic communications through a channel that you scrub ALL geolocation data from. (And if geolocation data is necessary, substitute a generic system code...that sits a few dozen AU out.)
Anyone that HAS to send an unscannable packet that MAY include geolocation will have to wait a couple hours, so timely targeting data is effectively useless.
Put SolSys behind a firewall.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:52 am 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
It's only been a few years at most since the teraport was invented. I wouldn't be surprised if they are still working out tactics and appropriate security regulations.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:13 am 
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