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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:31 pm 
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Sean wrote:
Nemoricus wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
By disrepair I meant unpowered. Yes, they can be brought back online, but instantly?

What gave the impression that the Oafa brought them online instantly? As I'm reading Petey and Putzho's remarks, the Oafa have /access/ to quite a few long guns in their vault, not that they've brought them all online right now.

And even if only a small fraction of them have been brought online, that's still enough to represent a worrying amount of firepower.


The "fact" that the vault is apparently empty, and a very short period of time has passed for that to happen.
That may not be instant, but a few hours, at most, is still very fast, considering the size of the vault, and the number of ships that apparently Were in it.

The easiest way was probably to terraport the ships, possibly with the aid of other ships, into the upper atmosphere of a jovian or superjovian they knew the coordinates to, and warbuck there. Then, come back with a supply of neutronium to help jumpstart the next wave. This beats turning the air and oceans into neutronium for a presumably astoundingly large fleet of ships.


Also, considering whether or not the ancient oafans were still in control of their station.
I'd have to say no, since the bridge necessary to access that server cluster was presumably the one Putzo rebuilt.

Also, why do you think Tagon has picked up the idiot ball? He's rolling with a developing situation, rather than complaining. Now is not the time for complaining. Complaining won't save them their fortunes. Pitching in MIGHT help, won't hurt, and the galaxy needs saving, again.


I agree that there is nothing Tagon can do. He's not an accountant or a lawyer. And his lawyer is telling him how it is. He's really good at tactics and combat, but those won't help here.

It's more the AI's actions I personally object to. They seem to be leaning over backwards for the Oafan. It just irks me that after 19 books of development a new super power just pops out of nowhere.

Arguably the Allstar was like that too, but their actions were limited and enigmatic enough not to be overbearing.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:22 pm 
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Sean wrote:
Nemoricus wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
By disrepair I meant unpowered. Yes, they can be brought back online, but instantly?

What gave the impression that the Oafa brought them online instantly? As I'm reading Petey and Putzho's remarks, the Oafa have /access/ to quite a few long guns in their vault, not that they've brought them all online right now.

And even if only a small fraction of them have been brought online, that's still enough to represent a worrying amount of firepower.


The "fact" that the vault is apparently empty, and a very short period of time has passed for that to happen.

I took that as a metaphorical emptying. There are still likely many, many ships physically in the vault, but for the purposes of people who had "accounts" there, it might as well be empty.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:47 am 
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Arcanestomper wrote:
Tagon's knuckling under for the same reason Petey is.

No, Kaff is giving way because his attorney said he has no choice and the bank that had all his money is owned by the people saying he owes them more money than he'll ever make.

Petey is knuckling under for reasons we don't yet understand. (Probably the need for PTUs)

Quote:
First the Toughs appear to be on the hook for the ships that were traded to the UNS.

We haven't actually been told what the Toughs are on hook for. My guess is the fleet that Iafa gave them. Which they sold.

Which is quite enough right there.

Quote:
Second and my more major complaint is that the Oafans rolled out of their millions of years long imprisonment and despite the ships being in disrepair were apparently able to instantly whip up a huge fleet that threatens Petey both economically and militarily.

Who has said this is the case? Please cite a comic or Word of Author.

All we know is that they took over the remaining fleet, some/most of which might still be mothballed.

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I mean what. Not even the Allstar was that powerful.

Sure it is. It just chooses not to flex those muscles.




Arcanestomper wrote:
If so why did the Neo Oafans even need those battlplate annie plants for their construction.

Warbucking and the UNS battleplate fabbers.




Arcanestomper wrote:
We've had no explanation of what Petey is apparently on the hook for. It just happened.

Probably because he helped broker the deal between the Neofan Freehold and the UNS IAI and made some PTU bank from it. Or he may have purchased a bunch of hulls from the Neofans.


Sean wrote:
The "fact" that the vault is apparently empty, and a very short period of time has passed for that to happen.

The vault isn't empty. It's just missing a few thousand warships. A few thousand.

Quote:
That may not be instant, but a few hours, at most, is still very fast, considering the size of the vault, and the number of ships that apparently Were in it.

It's been days.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:32 pm 
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We don't know how much of the fleet has been brought back online; it's not clear that the vault has been literally emptied vs. no longer containing anything Tagon owns. Clearly enough are online that with Petey's assistance they think they can beat Chinook handily, but Chinook does not control a major fraction of the entire fleet. Probably the ancient Oafans have all the technical knowledge the neo-Oafans have been trying to find and this includes how you bring a mothballed Oafan warship back online. They are the sole power with a fleet designed around Long Gun warfare, so they can probably defeat vastly superior numbers of ships from other nations.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:38 am 
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Prediction: the Oafan pinging the UNS in the latest strip is a repo man looking to repossess Breath Weapon.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:36 am 
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Agreed. By the time this storyline is concluded, the Toughs will be lucky to hold on to Cynthetic Certainty, never mind any of the other ships in their fleet.

Howard is taking the Toughs back to basics. Doesn't matter what we think of that or how he does it, it's his world. All we can do is decide whether or not we want keep reading. Personally, I like this turn of events, I thought the Toughs were becoming too...comfortable. Pretty soon everyone would be asking (again), why are the Toughs still risking themselves doing merc work when they no longer need to? Soon it would come to a point where, to continue the overall theme of the comic, either Schlock would have to break away on his own or, well, something like what we're seeing now would need to happen.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:48 pm 
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macnut wrote:
Pretty soon everyone would be asking (again), why are the Toughs still risking themselves doing merc work when they no longer need to?

It was clear they enjoyed it, did it well, it still needed doing, and they were effectively immortal. I never saw a need to ask that question.


And Schlock? Even if he were rich, he'd still be out there doing it.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:13 pm 
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My main question at this point is: What do the Toughs have to offer the Oafa that could possibly offset the value of even one of those ships? Breath Weapon on its own is worth more than the entire GDP of a planet of 200 billion plus sophonts, and even a corvette is incredibly valuable.

Tagon mentioned that they have a contract, and given the Toughs' skill sets, it's likely to involve breaking things and hurting people. But repossessing the ships sold to the UNS would involve angering a major galactic power, so that doesn't make sense. So, what can the Toughs do that would be worthwhile?


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:49 pm 
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Nemoricus wrote:
My main question at this point is: What do the Toughs have to offer the Oafa that could possibly offset the value of even one of those ships? Breath Weapon on its own is worth more than the entire GDP of a planet of 200 billion plus sophonts, and even a corvette is incredibly valuable.

Tagon mentioned that they have a contract, and given the Toughs' skill sets, it's likely to involve breaking things and hurting people. But repossessing the ships sold to the UNS would involve angering a major galactic power, so that doesn't make sense. So, what can the Toughs do that would be worthwhile?

Remember they still have the immortality treatment. That, plus their original ability to get through sticky situations in one peace, make them a valuable asset.

Plus maybe the Oafans outright own them and are putting them to work?

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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:08 pm 
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Sure, but are they valuable on the scale of planetary GDPs?


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:11 pm 
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Nemoricus wrote:
Sure, but are they valuable on the scale of planetary GDPs?

It just means it will take a little while to pay off their indentureship.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:35 pm 
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Krennson wrote:
Arcanestomper wrote:
---

The whole point of annie plant is that it stores neutronium as fuel. So whether its on or off it will have the same gravity signature. Which is what the Pa'anuri home in on. So everything I've read so far would indicate that all the ships in the stasis docks might be in good condition, but they are essentially out of fuel.


Restoring a "dry" annie plant to providing net power is called "Warbucking". it's apparently a common-enough task, if slightly annoying when you're forced to do it in the middle of a crisis.

Once operational, Annie plants generate their OWN Neutronium, providing net useful power, as long as they have a sufficient bulk supply of "normal" matter which they can swallow and compress into Neutronium.

Warbucking EVERY ship in the vault, simultanously, was probably an interesting technical exercise, but as long as they had a few depot ships available to start with and a large supply of external mass, it shouldn't have been too hard. It would have followed an exponential progression once they got started: 1 ship helps warbuck another, then 2 warbucks 2, 4 warbucks 4, etc.



I understood that the habitat used fusion, which the dark matter people can't track. Remember, when they first entered, it destroyed or turned off ALL annies, and only allowed them when informed (wrongly it seems) that they were now safe.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:54 pm 
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grahamf wrote:
Remember they still have the immortality treatment.

So does most of the rest of the galaxy.

Quote:
Plus maybe the Oafans outright own them and are putting them to work?

Unlikely.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:18 am 
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evileeyore wrote:
grahamf wrote:
Remember they still have the immortality treatment.

So does most of the rest of the galaxy.

Quote:
Plus maybe the Oafans outright own them and are putting them to work?

Unlikely.

For such short retorts you've been wrong pretty often.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:31 pm 
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grahamf wrote:
For such short retorts you've been wrong pretty often.

Ehh. Not with these though.

I'm just being too lazy to cite where the rest of the galaxy was given the immortality nannies.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:13 pm 
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The design was released, but I'm not sure how many people actually have them at this very moment, particularly the full militarized package.

The Toughs obviously can't pay the Oafans back for everything, but in light of the totality of the circumstances the Oafans are probably going to settle for repoing the stuff the Toughs still have plus some portion of the value of what they gave away. Or possibly they'll offer to write it off in return for some particular service that's not worth nearly the full value; they know the Toughs can't pay it off but could be persuaded to do a thing in return for the Oafans forgiving the debt rather than calling a collections agency to get whatever portion can be obtained.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:52 pm 
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The Ofans are losing political capital left, right, and center with this nonsense. They are proving they will not honor deals or commitments.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:08 am 
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evileeyore wrote:
The Ofans are losing political capital left, right, and center with this nonsense. They are proving they will not honor deals or commitments.
Think of it like a revolution. The new government - the old Oafans - aren't going to honour committments made by their predecessors, the Neoafans.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:20 pm 
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The old Oafans are not party to any currently extant agreements, mutual understandings, or treaties and are not bound by any. They have no obligations whatsoever to existing powers. Their ownership of the property used in those deals is arguable, but certainly it was at one point theirs and they never agreed to transfer it.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:12 pm 
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Reaver225 wrote:
Think of it like a revolution. The new government - the old Oafans - aren't going to honour committments made by their predecessors, the Neoafans.

And doing so sets the tone future relationships. That being "We'll strong arm everyone with threats of annihilation."


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:58 pm 
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evileeyore wrote:
And doing so sets the tone future relationships. That being "We'll strong arm everyone with threats of annihilation."
While lightly implied with the earlier phrases of "brute force" and show of said force, the Oafans have been very cordial and have used the lightest of touches so far, and in both cases have to do with the non-proliferation of long-gun technology. They haven't actually made threats yet.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:28 pm 
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So far the Oafans are just demanding the return of their property. It probably is theirs by their laws and they aren't bound by any other laws that may have been created without their input or approval. They're on shakier grounds for requesting compensation for any loss or damage, but all we know on that count is that they're annoyed at the Toughs and have siezed a notable portion of the Tough's assets, but their property made up a big chunk of the Tough's assets.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:50 pm 
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Today on PBS News hour, we see the exact same situation.

Greek statues that belong in the Pantheon were sold off by the Ottomans while they occupied Greece; Greece wants them back, claiming that the Ottomans had no authority to sell them.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:33 am 
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keybounce wrote:
Today on PBS News hour, we see the exact same situation.

Greek statues that belong in the Pantheon were sold off by the Ottomans while they occupied Greece; Greece wants them back, claiming that the Ottomans had no authority to sell them.

It's not the same at all. The Ottomans took the statues while the Greeks were still there. The Toughs took the ships as payment in good faith, which was authorized in good faith by the Neofans. And the Toughs took said payment as compensation for actions that directly led to the Ancient Oafan's release.

While the Toughs did not directly release the Ancient Oafans, they were instrumental in setting up the conditions that allowed it to happen. Imagine what would of happened without Tagon being there. I doubt any of the Prabstdi would of been brave enough and situationally aware enough (and lucky enough) to make peace overtures with T'kkkuts Afa. And that peace is what eventually allowed the Ancient Oafans to be released.

The conditions were right, by which I mean the insane person was no longer in charge. Even if Chinook hadn't been driven insane, the archive containing the Ancient Oafans would of been eventually found.

Of course, the Oafans could very reasonably argue that the Toughs were grossly overpaid, demand their ships back, and remit payment in some other form. And we don't know what the Ancient Oafan's stance is yet, other the they want their ships back. But so far it looks like they are not recognizing the good faith of the Toughs in their actions (it was NOT robbery).

Of course, Tagon seems to have something in the works, something that will hopefully resolve this ethically murky situation in a way that doesn't screw anyone.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:17 am 
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Of course, the reverse arguably applies just as much:

The old Oafans Modern Powers are not party to any Ancient agreements, Ancient mutual understandings, or Ancient treaties and are not bound by any. They have no obligations whatsoever to existing Ancient powers. Their ownership of the property used in those deals claimed as salvage under their modern laws is arguable, but certainly it was at one point theirs and they never agreed to transfer it to Ancient Oafans.

(name here) wrote:
The old Oafans are not party to any currently extant agreements, mutual understandings, or treaties and are not bound by any. They have no obligations whatsoever to existing powers. Their ownership of the property used in those deals is arguable, but certainly it was at one point theirs and they never agreed to transfer it.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:17 am 
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Good luck trying to find anyone to enforce that, though. The UNS might try to see that a reason to start a war with the Oafans so they can "return all these goods to Tagon's Toughs, less expenses cost during the war"


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:48 am 
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Krennson wrote:
Of course, the reverse arguably applies just as much:

The old Oafans Modern Powers are not party to any Ancient agreements, Ancient mutual understandings, or Ancient treaties and are not bound by any. They have no obligations whatsoever to existing Ancient powers. Their ownership of the property used in those deals claimed as salvage under their modern laws is arguable, but certainly it was at one point theirs and they never agreed to transfer it to Ancient Oafans.


Well it's actually not clear the salvage laws apply in a way that allows the Toughs to retain ownership. This situation is pretty screwy, and also decidedly not the situation believed to be present when the Toughs originally claimed ownership. It wouldn't be theirs if the Oafans had been trapped for two days, and the salvage laws aren't likely written for this situation.

But if we assume they do have clear title under modern law, that just means both parties have equally legitimate claims. The Oafans are in a position to enforce theirs, which is as legitimate as if the nations of the galaxy enforced theirs.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:04 pm 
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Krennson wrote:
Of course, the reverse arguably applies just as much:

The old Oafans Modern Powers are not party to any Ancient agreements, Ancient mutual understandings, or Ancient treaties and are not bound by any. They have no obligations whatsoever to existing Ancient powers. Their ownership of the property used in those deals claimed as salvage under their modern laws is arguable, but certainly it was at one point theirs and they never agreed to transfer it to Ancient Oafans.

(name here) wrote:
The old Oafans are not party to any currently extant agreements, mutual understandings, or treaties and are not bound by any. They have no obligations whatsoever to existing powers. Their ownership of the property used in those deals is arguable, but certainly it was at one point theirs and they never agreed to transfer it.




Salvage laws do not apply they may not apply to anyone except human ships in human space in schlockverse.

Salvage laws do not apply to combat vessels you can not claim a warship as salvage even if abandoned in international waters unless the state which owns it gives you permission first

Eina-Afa is a space habitat not a ship. The ships where inside the space habitat not floating around in deep space.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:23 am 
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ushio wrote:


Salvage laws do not apply they may not apply to anyone except human ships in human space in schlockverse.

Salvage laws do not apply to combat vessels you can not claim a warship as salvage even if abandoned in international waters unless the state which owns it gives you permission first

Eina-Afa is a space habitat not a ship. The ships where inside the space habitat not floating around in deep space.

Salvage laws may only apply to humans, but salvage as a concept is universal to any species. And we have no evidence that the laws only apply to humans.

Warships can be salvaged. I don't know why you are saying it doesn't apply. So can any floating equipment, such as oil rigs. Oil rigs are basically ocean versions of space stations, I think it's reasonable to claim it would apply to Eina-Afa.

Crucially, salvage does not mean "gets to keep the ship". It means "entitled to a reward from the owner of what is salvaged, in proportion to the difficulty of salvage operation and value of what is salvaged". People only get to keep ships when the owner doesn't want (or is unable) to pony up.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:38 am 
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This whole situation is sufficently screwy that I would not count on galactic salvage laws applying in the manner that would normally be expected. For one thing, this is arguably a rescue from a pirate (or at least approximately so) and thus governed by the laws for that, which may be different.

We're also still waiting on the full details of what they explained to the Toughs; it could very well be "you're entitled to a salvage fee; we're entitled to damages for you scrapping a bunch of our warships. These basically cancel out." We know the Oafans want their stuff back and the Toughs need money, but not necessarily "thousands of warships" money. They do apparently owe some amount of money, but also may have some reasonable chance of paying it back at some point, where there's probably literally not enough money in the galaxy to cover damages.


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