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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:53 pm 
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(name here) wrote:
This whole situation is sufficently screwy that I would not count on galactic salvage laws applying in the manner that would normally be expected. For one thing, this is arguably a rescue from a pirate (or at least approximately so) and thus governed by the laws for that, which may be different.

We're also still waiting on the full details of what they explained to the Toughs; it could very well be "you're entitled to a salvage fee; we're entitled to damages for you scrapping a bunch of our warships. These basically cancel out." We know the Oafans want their stuff back and the Toughs need money, but not necessarily "thousands of warships" money. They do apparently owe some amount of money, but also may have some reasonable chance of paying it back at some point, where there's probably literally not enough money in the galaxy to cover damages.

That seems reasonable and plausible, and would be a satisfying way of making the Toughs poor again. "You got too greedy, and lost everything" is a classic, and I think this would be a good twist on that.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:40 pm 
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Motortiki wrote:
ushio wrote:


Salvage laws do not apply they may not apply to anyone except human ships in human space in schlockverse.

Salvage laws do not apply to combat vessels you can not claim a warship as salvage even if abandoned in international waters unless the state which owns it gives you permission first

Eina-Afa is a space habitat not a ship. The ships where inside the space habitat not floating around in deep space.

Salvage laws may only apply to humans, but salvage as a concept is universal to any species. And we have no evidence that the laws only apply to humans.

Warships can be salvaged. I don't know why you are saying it doesn't apply. So can any floating equipment, such as oil rigs. Oil rigs are basically ocean versions of space stations, I think it's reasonable to claim it would apply to Eina-Afa.

Crucially, salvage does not mean "gets to keep the ship". It means "entitled to a reward from the owner of what is salvaged, in proportion to the difficulty of salvage operation and value of what is salvaged". People only get to keep ships when the owner doesn't want (or is unable) to pony up.




Oil rigs and warships cannot be salvaged.

http://www.admiraltylawguide.com/conven ... e1989.html

International Convention on Salvage, 1989

this Convention shall not apply to warships or other non-commercial vessels owned or operated by a State and entitled, at the time of salvage operations, to sovereign immunity under generally recognized principles of international law unless that State decides otherwise.


Eina-afa was also not in peril and what was inside was also not in peril (until the toughs got there)


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:30 pm 
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ushio wrote:

Oil rigs and warships cannot be salvaged.

http://www.admiraltylawguide.com/conven ... e1989.html

International Convention on Salvage, 1989

this Convention shall not apply to warships or other non-commercial vessels owned or operated by a State and entitled, at the time of salvage operations, to sovereign immunity under generally recognized principles of international law unless that State decides otherwise.


Eina-afa was also not in peril and what was inside was also not in peril (until the toughs got there)

You are correct, I was mistaken. Here is a more relevant bit of law, that specifically says what governs (US) military ships, instead of merely exempting them: https://coast.noaa.gov/data/Documents/O ... edirect=30

Also, the Supreme Court has ruled that salvage applies only to vessels. However, there is some fuzziness here: rig owners are responsible for the costs of removing oil rigs that pose an environmental threat. This is technically not defined as salvage in the OPA, but does necessitate that oil rigs be salvaged.

So, oil rigs cannot be salvage under law, but are required to be salvaged. Weird.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_Pollution_Act_of_1990
https://legcounsel.house.gov/Comps/Oil% ... 201990.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:23 pm 
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Perhaps more relevantly for the comic, there was no polity currently existent which recognized the Oafans as a nation, or ever HAVING a nation, making their warships not be immune to salvage rights.

The station was ESSENTIALLY derelict, same as the Zoojack stations and the Andromeda gate and Oisri. The Zoojack stations had people there, but they could be asked if they were okay with giving up their stuff, same as the Neoafans.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:56 pm 
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Kendrakirai wrote:
Perhaps more relevantly for the comic, there was no polity currently existent which recognized the Oafans as a nation, or ever HAVING a nation, making their warships not be immune to salvage rights.

The station was ESSENTIALLY derelict, same as the Zoojack stations and the Andromeda gate and Oisri. The Zoojack stations had people there, but they could be asked if they were okay with giving up their stuff, same as the Neoafans.

The last remaining representative of the Ancient Oafans was asked, and consented. It just turned out that last representative had been hiding the other representatives for so long she had forgotten they existed. And that said representatives hadn't consented to being hidden.

I really want to know what compelling reason Yaeyoefui had.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:38 am 
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The fact that the Toughs believed they'd secured permission from the legitimate owner limits the extent to which they're liable but doesn't mean they have permission from the actual legitimate owner. It's pretty likely the Oafan government stripped her of her legal authority in the infosphere when she proceeded to violate her specific instructions and imprison the entire population. You don't usually keep your job when you do that sort of thing.

There's a slightly stronger argument with the resurrected soul foils, but however you sort out the identity issues with resurrecting people who live in the infosphere there's no particular indication anyone resurrected to date had the authority to negotiate binding treaties on their own initiative, in which case they can't represent the Oafan government. Any succession protocols wouldn't apply if the original holder is still alive and in contact with the central government.

Naturally the Oafans could choose to honor all or part of the agreements they aren't bound by for diplomatic reasons, but no government is going to insist governments have to honor deals made by any citizen acting on their behalf without authority. The other governments might be unhappy given they dealt in good faith, but they wouldn't view it as a breach of obligations and as long as the Oafans refund any purchases they're taking back (if the deal never existed it's not the Oafan's money any more than it's the other party's ships) they won't hold a grudge. Things would get sticky if the Oafans demand repayment for scrapped warships, though; even assuming they seek no punitive damages (which they probably aren't due under any law) the other nations will have solid grounds to only cover the loss in value since they obtained the scrap; it's the Toughs who did the scrapping.

Boiled down to realpolitik, these are the underlying issues:
1. The Oafans want all their stuff; most definitely everything aboard Eina-Afa when they got uploaded and possibly key facilities elsewhere
2. The Oafans would very much like to hold a monopoly on Long Guns
3. The Oafans have the military power to enforce whatever they want, but they'd probably rather have good diplomatic relations so they can just buy stuff or ask politely rather than committing the fleet every time they want anything
4. Other nations want to keep the Oafan stuff. I mean, they all want all the Oafan stuff, but they specifically feel they (mostly) legitimately obtained the stuff they have.
5. The other nations don't want to be wiped out by Long Gun fire.
6. If the other nations don't have any trust the Oafans will honor a deal, at a certain point they'll refuse to give in to threats because they'll figure even if they pay up the Oafans won't honor the deal anyways.

So my guess is the Oafans will initiate normal diplomatic relations on the condition they get their ships back. They're not going to demand the PTUs from the hulls of the scrapped ships be ripped out of annie plants made with them because that would be incredibly pointless and dumb, but they'd demand repayment of some portion of the value, though probably they'd value it as a lot less than what the current market does.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:44 pm 
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Consider this:

The toughs traded warships for annie plants and a battleplate's worth of materials.

The warships belonged to the Oafans, so the traded stuff (annie plants, city) now belong to the Oafans.

The Oafans are trying to recover their stuff (warships, such as the Tough's), etc. -- leaving the situation basically as follows:

1. The Oafans own their ships, have recovered their ships where possible, and own the stuff that was traded for the ships they cannot recover.
2. The toughs now find themselves owning nothing more than a single Dragon-class ship with a proper weapon.
3. The toughs' money is in a bank owned by the Oafans. And, since all their money is basically from sale of Oafan ships, they lose it.

The result?

The Toughs own one ship, no money, and need to make payroll.

The Oafans are willing to hire the Toughs, and pay their payroll, but require them to do stuff.

Result?

No idiot balls.
No crazy demands that cause issue with galactic laws.

Just "You sold our stuff, now we claim ownership of what you received for our stuff".

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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:22 pm 
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Well, the problem is the Toughs gave away the scrapped ships for way less than their value as intact warships. So siezing their money doesn't cover the damages. And the Oafans didn't agree to the sale, so they could declare it invalid and have both sets of stuff returned to the original owners.

That said it's most likely that the Oafans aren't going to actually pursue the scrapped ships issue; they can't unscrap the ships and the raw PTU value isn't meaningful enough to them to really care about. If it were a big deal they could demand return of any still in scrap form and equivalent value for the rest, but as is they'll probably just stick waving their claim into their entry into diplomatic relations.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:25 pm 
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Monkey House Exhibit
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So, the Toughs owe the difference between "warship value" and "3 annie plants + city value".

And, the Toughs get a credit for saving them.

But, the result is a "small" balance due to the Oafans, so the Toughs have to do some work for them as a result -- "our employers", as it was put recently.

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Para and Petey need to have some dialog together. Just because.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018-9-13 Robbery
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:10 pm 
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Arctic Exhibit
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Kendrakirai wrote:
Perhaps more relevantly for the comic, there was no polity currently existent which recognized the Oafans as a nation, or ever HAVING a nation, making their warships not be immune to salvage rights.

The station was ESSENTIALLY derelict, same as the Zoojack stations and the Andromeda gate and Oisri. The Zoojack stations had people there, but they could be asked if they were okay with giving up their stuff, same as the Neoafans.



The hive mind was in Eina-afa and I would expect that rules regarding planets with pre-space faring civilizations would apply. With a world forge known to have once existed Eina-afa should have the same status as any planet.


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