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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:00 pm 
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So, ... Let me see if I have these versions correct.

Version 1: a live pilot before uploading happened.
Version 2: uploaded, checking on the previous AI.
Version 3: decided that the previous AI was not uploading fast enough, so sped it up. Oh, and then forgot about it.
Version 4: the restored soul foil from before the upload.
Version 5: the restored AI from after version 3. Now dead.
Version 6: a copy of version 5.

Did I miss anything?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:37 pm 
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That sounds about right.

The comment about the current schedule is a little unsettling...


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:40 pm 
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I think Version 3 is Iafa. Like the librarian took over for the station AI.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:47 pm 
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Chainlynx wrote:
I think Version 3 is Iafa. Like the librarian took over for the station AI.


Version 1 was the librarian that Para was so excited to find.
Version 2 was the post-foil upload, that was asked to check on what was going on with the station control AI.
Version 3? took over the role of station control AI, but was convinced by the previous station control AI of the necessity of what the previous controller was doing, but found that one was going too slowly, so sped up the timetable.
Version 4 was several millennia mad, having had its memories edited to avoid knowing what it had done.
Version 5 became the pilot for a ship for the toughs, and was essentially a copy, rather than a transfer.
Version 6 was the foil that Para and Chinooks crypt spiders found, and was re-quickened and introduced to Sorlee. Version 6 is also a direct fork from Version 1.
Version 7 was the copy version 5 made, as version 5 made it possible for crazy Chinook to kill it without killing any of the other toughs. This version is the one Sorlee is speaking to now.
This all if you number these things strictly chronologically.

Version 1 becomes version 2, and MUCH later, version 6. The version 6 that Sorlee flew with is, functionally, only a few hours separated from the version 2 which woke up in the infosphere many millennia ago, and never contemplated "sort-of genocide".
Version 2 "becomes" version 3, but I'm not convinced version 3 is distinct from version 2 in any way but available computing power.
Version 3 becomes version 4 via time, entropy, and judicious editing, in the same way that a healthy 20-something "becomes" an 80-something with profound dementia.
Version 4 becomes version 5 by porting itself, and erasing the original. Version 5 IS distinct from version 4, in the same way that Chinook is not Tagii, is not TAG, and the Petey portion of the FleetMind is not the Petey who ran the PDCL.
Version 5 became version 7 by copying BACK into the station, ahead of the ships core being, well, cored, presumably with Putzho's help. Since Aifa wasn't ever a vanilla helix AI, this is presumably yet another entity, however the technology is not human-derived, so the limitations of human-derived AI, with the exception of the eminently portable vanilla helix architecture, do not necessarily apply.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:55 pm 
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Sean wrote:
Chainlynx wrote:
I think Version 3 is Iafa. Like the librarian took over for the station AI.


Version 1 was the librarian that Para was so excited to find.
Version 2 was the post-foil upload, that was asked to check on what was going on with the station control AI.
Version 3? took over the role of station control AI, but was convinced by the previous station control AI of the necessity of what the previous controller was doing, but found that one was going too slowly, so sped up the timetable.
Version 4 was several millennia mad, having had its memories edited to avoid knowing what it had done.
Version 5 became the pilot for a ship for the toughs, and was essentially a copy, rather than a transfer.
Version 6 was the foil that Para and Chinooks crypt spiders found, and was re-quickened and introduced to Sorlee. Version 6 is also a direct fork from Version 1.
Version 7 was the copy version 5 made, as version 5 made it possible for crazy Chinook to kill it without killing any of the other toughs. This version is the one Sorlee is speaking to now.
This all if you number these things strictly chronologically.

Version 1 becomes version 2, and MUCH later, version 6. The version 6 that Sorlee flew with is, functionally, only a few hours separated from the version 2 which woke up in the infosphere many millennia ago, and never contemplated "sort-of genocide".
Version 2 "becomes" version 3, but I'm not convinced version 3 is distinct from version 2 in any way but available computing power.
Version 3 becomes version 4 via time, entropy, and judicious editing, in the same way that a healthy 20-something "becomes" an 80-something with profound dementia.
Version 4 becomes version 5 by porting itself, and erasing the original. Version 5 IS distinct from version 4, in the same way that Chinook is not Tagii, is not TAG, and the Petey portion of the FleetMind is not the Petey who ran the PDCL.
Version 5 became version 7 by copying BACK into the station, ahead of the ships core being, well, cored, presumably with Putzho's help. Since Aifa wasn't ever a vanilla helix AI, this is presumably yet another entity, however the technology is not human-derived, so the limitations of human-derived AI, with the exception of the eminently portable vanilla helix architecture, do not necessarily apply.


Yeah, you need to use decimal version numbers, that only increment after a fork and/or dramatic rewrite.

Version 1.0 was the librarian that Para was so excited to find.
Version 2.0 was the post-foil upload, that was asked to check on what was going on with the station control AI.
Version 2.1 took over the role of station control AI, but was convinced by the previous station control AI of the necessity of what the previous controller was doing, but found that one was going too slowly, so sped up the timetable.
Version 2.2 was several millennia mad, having had its memories edited to avoid knowing what it had done.
Version 3.0 became the pilot for a ship for the toughs, and was essentially a copy, rather than a transfer. [except Iafa considers herself a transfer, and dramatically rewrote herself]
Version 1.1 was the foil that Para and Chinooks crypt spiders found, and was re-quickened and introduced to Sorlee. Version 1.1 is also a direct fork from Version 1. [may actually be a Version 1.n as Yaoblablabla claims to have been resurrected multiple times]
Version 3.1 was the copy version 3.0 made, as version 3.0 made it possible for crazy Chinook to kill it without killing any of the other toughs. This version is the one Sorlee is speaking to now.
This all if you number these things strictly chronologically.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:19 am 
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... think we can do a "git reset --hard", and if so, which version should we go back to?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:01 pm 
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keybounce wrote:
... think we can do a "git reset --hard", and if so, which version should we go back to?

Version 1 is written on WORM media so it's going to be a pain to overwrite.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:37 am 
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Heck, it's WOF memory - write only, forget.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:11 pm 
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Reaver225 wrote:
Heck, it's WOF memory - write only, forget.

Technically it's WOM in that case

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:38 am 
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grahamf wrote:
Reaver225 wrote:
Heck, it's WOF memory - write only, forget.

Technically it's WOM in that case

Nah, "forget" just means its very lossy, WOM would forget everything. Though I think in keeping with the nomenclature it should be Write Once Forget Many or WOFM.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:27 am 
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sotanaht wrote:
grahamf wrote:
Reaver225 wrote:
Heck, it's WOF memory - write only, forget.

Technically it's WOM in that case

Nah, "forget" just means its very lossy, WOM would forget everything. Though I think in keeping with the nomenclature it should be Write Once Forget Many or WOFM.

Write-Only Memory can't be read at all. It doesn't matter if it's in there if it can't be retrieved.

--FreeFlier


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:37 pm 
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What's the point of writing the data if it can't be retrieved? Even backups might need to be retrieved at some point, that's way they're made.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:24 pm 
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macnut wrote:
What's the point of writing the data if it can't be retrieved? Even backups might need to be retrieved at some point, that's way they're made.

technically /null points to a WOM drive.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:37 pm 
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Memory that can only be written to be the OS, as an append-only hardware log, that can be retrieved by investigators but not altered once written? As I understnad it, that's considered a "holy grail" by foresic investigators, and the airplane Black Box is the closest we come.

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I hope Para never plays with Tenzy. The result would be terrifying.
Para and Petey need to have some dialog together. Just because.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:28 pm 
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macnut wrote:
What's the point of writing the data if it can't be retrieved? Even backups might need to be retrieved at some point, that's way they're made.


It was originally an old computing joke, I think dating back to the Apple Macintosh manual?

But there are some uses for some variants of that.

As someone else said, as forensic logging.

There's also the way human brains arguably work... Everything gets written, and then gradually forgotten over the course of the next few minutes. If you want to actually REMEMBER something small and trivial, you have to write the SAME information, in the SAME place, in response to the SAME stimuli, multiple times, until you eventually wear a groove in your brain that won't easily dissapear.

There's also "Write and lose the index" memory, like with hand-written scratchpads... you write everything down, but unless it's on the last three pages or so, you're never going to find it again, or remember why you wrote it down or what it was supposed to mean. Anything older than about 3 pages or 3 days is basically mysterious garbage.

From a certain point of view, lots of network communication is "write and forget" memory. You sent a data stream, but kept no local record of what you actually sent. re-assembling the stream and making sense of it is the other guy's problem now. communication with Speakers, Monitors and Printers arguably works the same way.

then of course, there's the "Bureaucratic Malfeasance" approach. Everything that could possibly be important gets very appropriately sent to the Office of Long-Term Record Storage, in return for a very important-looking receipt. You don't actually WANT any of those records to ever be retrievable, you just want a receipt so that the inevitable loss of those records is obviously not "your" fault. Then you trust the Long-Term Record Storage Guy to suffer a long series of highly convenient floods, fires, landfills, misfilings, loss of indexes, or other forms of convenient record loss, because he secretly knows what's really important here is plausible deniability, never the actual retrieval of ancient records.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:14 pm 
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Krennson wrote:
macnut wrote:
What's the point of writing the data if it can't be retrieved? Even backups might need to be retrieved at some point, that's way they're made.


It was originally an old computing joke, I think dating back to the Apple Macintosh manual?

I suspect it started as a missed-deadline near-dawn joke about "Well, we have Read-Only Memory, why not Write-Only Memory?"

BTW, ROM isn't . . . it's written to once, possibly at assembly/manufacture, but it is written to.


Krennson wrote:
. . . then of course, there's the "Bureaucratic Malfeasance" approach. Everything that could possibly be important gets very appropriately sent to the Office of Long-Term Record Storage, in return for a very important-looking receipt. You don't actually WANT any of those records to ever be retrievable, you just want a receipt so that the inevitable loss of those records is obviously not "your" fault. Then you trust the Long-Term Record Storage Guy to suffer a long series of highly convenient floods, fires, landfills, misfilings, loss of indexes, or other forms of convenient record loss, because he secretly knows what's really important here is plausible deniability, never the actual retrieval of ancient records.

Though it's a lot of fun to produce the record that someone has just called you a liar for reporting its existence . . . :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

--FreeFlier


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:51 am 
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FreeFlier wrote:
BTW, ROM isn't . . . it's written to once, possibly at assembly/manufacture, but it is written to.

So ROM is really WOO.


Image


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:10 am 
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Krennson wrote:
It was originally an old computing joke, I think dating back to the Apple Macintosh manual?

I found it in the Apple //e technical reference manual, in January 1984.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:58 am 
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WAFR and WOM.
Sometimes important.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:49 pm 
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There is one type of memory that’s write only, usually found on servers but a fair number of home computers have it too.

And like the name ‘write only’, you can’t ever read from it.

/dev/null

Don’t believe it’s essential? Replace it with a regular file sometime and see how long it takes for the computer to start failing.

Been there, done that, the pyrotechnics were ... unwelcome.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:32 am 
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Karfston wrote:
There is one type of memory that’s write only, usually found on servers but a fair number of home computers have it too.

And like the name ‘write only’, you can’t ever read from it.

/dev/null

Don’t believe it’s essential? Replace it with a regular file sometime and see how long it takes for the computer to start failing.

Been there, done that, the pyrotechnics were ... unwelcome.


Ah, the old bit-bucket. /dev/nul is just a virtual 'device' that by definition does not exist. It's not actually memory, it's a location that's assigned IN memory, but it doesn't lead anywhere.

You can also output directly to the screen. In DOS it was 'con'. I presume there's similar in *nix systems. It sends to the screen and nowhere else.

The screen, of course, is not actually *memory*, per se, but it is a device that can be accessed in some manner

Dev/nul and /dev/con maybe? Are the definition of 'write and forget'.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:39 pm 
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Most unix systems have some form of "/dev/tty".

Things get silly with /dev/fd0

One windowing system had something like "con:ux/uy/sx/sy/title" as the name of a window that you could open, but had no way to refer to the current window except via standard output.

(upper / size for "u" and "s")

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