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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 3:02 pm 
Okay, everyone, you can relax.

I missed two days up updates, but don't worry. This doesn't mean I'm secretly Josh Philips in drag. (I just know some of you visual thinkers are out there right now trying to stab your brains with ice picks. :P )

In honor of my trying to catch up, here's a two-parter I was planning on posting, combined into one for easy reading.

Be warned, it's graphics intensive. So if you've got a pansy little 14.4 modem...for god's sake, upgrade to two tin cans on a string. At least then you'll be able to use it as a science experiment. :D

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Listen carefully to people in a comic book shop, and you'll hear a lot of the same arguments. But if you listen carefully, you'll realize that they fall into pretty much two categories.

A) "Character A is stronger/faster/smarter/cooler/more powerful/sexier/greater in the sack/better at raising penguins than Character B..."

or the lesser heard

B) "This should be the line-up of this team. It would so rock."

Well, we've already got posts to debate who could beat who at various stuff.

Time to address that second issue. :D

With a definitive...twist.

Now, all of you comic book geeks out there are probably already chomping at the bit to suggest your team, and how it's the "be all/end all" team line-up. Yours is the ultimate line-up, and if the comic book industry would wise up and give you control of the book, you could do wonderful things with it.

Well, I'm sorry, you're wrong. You do not have the definitive line-up for the Avengers. You do not have the be-all/end-all line-up for the Justice League.

I'm not even sure you've got anything close to a good idea for the line-up of the Power Pack. :P

And how do I know this? Well, it's really quite simple.

Only I have the definitive line-ups for these teams. So nyah, nyah, nyah.

So, here's how it's gonna work. Two things are going to happen in these columns.

A) I'm going to post my list, and simply dazzle you with the complexity and deep planning I've put into these.

B) You're going to post replies telling me I'm full of it, that with my apparent intellect I'd have a hard time finding my way out of a paper maze in the dark equipped with a leaky kerosine barrel and a packet of matches, and that it's a good thing they're never going to hand over the writing responsibilities of this title because I'd not only run it into the ground, but back a cement mixer over it a few times.

In other words, just like the conversations at your local shop. :D

First up, Marvel's premiere non-team.

You heard me. Non-team. The Defenders, I've felt, have always worked best when you take a group of personalities that might not always see eye-to-eye but just happen to have a common goal.

Also, just to give you guys a heads up, I'm breaking convention. On my team, there's going to be no Doctor Strange, no Silver Surfer, no Hulk, and no Sub-Mariner.

That's right, get all that gnashing of teeth out of the way now, I'm not reconsidering.

Okay, now that that's out of the way, let's set up the standard rules for picking teams.

1) No more than 12 members. Any more than that, and we're getting dangerously close to one of those blockbuster summer "X-Men" events. For god's sake, can't Marvel dig up Scourge again to off a few useless mutants? I mean, what's Bishop still doing running around?

2) In the case of the Defenders, there will be a core team of 4 members. It has always been done thusly, and always will be done thusly. You will then pick 8 members who will circle around the core team much like lawyers around an ambulance drop-off. They will be more than just cameos, they will be co-stars.

3) Anybody who mentions a certain deer fawn in this column (besides this mentioning right here, obviously) will be dragged out into the street, tied down, and forced to read "Fighting American" until their eyes implode.

We're not having any of THAT, here, folks. :P

Anyway, let's start out by saying hello to our new team leader.

1) Daimon Hellstrom a.k.a. The Son of Satan

Image

Hear me out before you start throwing stones, okay, people?

The Defenders aren't your local Avengers branch. There's very little "hanging around the mansion" between missions going on here.

So, obviously, what we need is someone who can show up and say things like, "You. We have a job to do."

And it's only ten minutes later does anybody realize they have no idea where they're going or where they are.

Anybody who leads this team is going to have to be able to do so by three points. Brute power, fear/respect, and raw charisma. This guy's got all three in spades.

Besides, the book always seemed better when it was kinda dark, even during the lighter issues. Who better to carry that permanent sense of darkness than the literal offspring of the Prince of Darkness?

What he brings to party: Leadership, in buckets.


2) Valkyrie

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Face it, folks. She just belongs here.

The Valkyrie has always been a favorite of mine. A disembodied 'chooser of the dead' who wound up spiritually bonded to a not-quite-dead-yet woman, she's managed to be a lynchpin on just about every incarnation of the Defenders out there.

Save towards the ends of the run, when for some reason a character this fascinating was passed on for, say, Hellcat. Why? Cause some people are just stupid, that's why.

The Valkyrie had the spirit of a true warrior, and would wield her magic sword "Dragonfang" and an enchanted spear, she'd be right up there with the Sub-Mariner or Hulk in engaging the front line of the enemy.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying we need another dark and gritty character like we've got out there now.

Dark and brooding like the Batman, yes. Stacking bad guy corpses like they're so much kindling like Wolverine, Authority, Spawn, etc...no.

Which is why, during the height of her time being written in the Defenders by Steve Gerber (god bless him), she was a furious combatant, but also had a visible softer, gentler side.

All in all, she is the perfect example of an outsider, a person to whom our very way of life can be a strange and alien thing. That, and she's become so devoted to the idea of the team, that she's made it her life to uphold that ideal. Every book needs one of these. It's like not having the Vision around in the Avengers, people.

That, and the fact that this character has appeared in more issues of the Defenders than any other character. How do you like THEM apples, huh?

Take my word for it, folks. You can't have the Defenders without her.
She's on a strength class right up there with Ben Grimm, the lovable Thing. And she's a hella lot better to look at than Prince Namor on his best day, right, guys?

What she brings to the party: Power and glamour. Power and glamour. :wink:

3) Nighthawk

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Ignoring, for the moment, the fact that he's wearing what must be one of the most ridiculous costumes ever donned by a superhero, Nighthawk is also someone who just belongs on this team.

Starting his career as a super-villain, spoiled bored rich kid Kyle Richmond quickly learned that it's better to do on the side of good, than get your face punched in by whatever spandexed yahoo happened to be around.

Since joining the Defenders, he has had, what I feel, is one of the most vital roles out of any of the other characters in any series. Here's a character whose real-world point of view can add a stark contrast to the viewpoints of, say, a Son of Satan or a Valkyrie. He's a character who can be just as comfortable talking to a visiting Beast as to the Silver Surfer. He's the one who's least likely to judge anybody else in the book, and makes for a fine card-carrying second-in-command that the leader can consult with if he needs to.

He's the "everyman" here, folks. Namely, he represents YOUR presence in the comic.

Don't let a character like this get away.

What he brings to the party: A touch of the "old guard" tossed in with the team's emotional lynchpin. If Valkyrie is your ideal, this guy is your heart.

4) Luke Cage

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Gee, where do I begin?

The problem with a book like the Defenders is that the more outlandish your stories get, the more you risk the chance of your characters and storylines just getting downright silly. When you have a line-up that involves the Silver Surfer, Doc Strange, Hulk, Sub-Mariner, etc....well, it gets hard to think of something besides a cosmic-level threat every time to face against them.

I mean, sure, maybe Jack Kirby could get away with one character shouting, "It's the Infinity Chalice! Quickly, grab it before the Ultranaught finds us, or the creases of reality will rip!" to his equally god-like partners.

But ONLY Jack Kirby can get away with comments like that. That's why he's the King, people.

With the gruff but lovable Luke "Hero for Hire" Cage added on, you have a street-level mentality connected to a team to keep it from aspiring to those higher levels of grandeur. He's the voice that will shout out if at any point he feels that, y'know, the team is kinda missing the POINT of being heroes and forgetting about the little people.

What he brings to the party: A conscience, a sense of humor, and a sense of proportion to keep egos from getting inflated.

That, and he's the last person in the universe who will ever shriek, "It's the Infinity Chalice!" :D

Okay, so, that gives us our four key characters. Strap yourself down, folks, cause from here on out, it's gonna get weird.

As well it should.

These ARE the Defenders we're talking about, here. :wink:


Last edited by Rakka on Sat May 01, 2004 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 3:21 pm 
Hold onto your ankles and go to your happy places, folks. It's Part 2 of my Defenders line-up.

5) The Juggernaut

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Cause sometimes, you just really need somebody else whose presence can make Thor hesitate before joining in the eventual 'hero vs hero' brawl that always happens. :D

Hey, hear me out. I was right about the Valkyrie, wasn't I?

Cain Marko, a.k.a. The Juggernaut (with a capital T and J, if he so wishes), has spent most of his life primarily being a bad guy due to a lot of misplaced rage at his brother, Charles Xavier. Lately, he seems to have been attempting to do better in life including going on trial for crimes, saving the world from some similarly powered characters in a recent Avengers storyline, and kicking the high-holy spit out of a very freaked out D'Spayre.

It always helps to have one character whose personal mantra seems to be "the madder I get, the more likely I'm going to keep getting up and coming at you", only instead of the Hulk, you want someone who isn't just as likely to start hitting his own teammates in the confusion.

Plus, you've got that whole 'powers come from a dark malevolent GOD' thing that the Son of Satan might just want to keep an eye on. Y'know, just in case.

What he brings to the party: A walking tank looking for redemption. You can't go wrong with that.

6) Nightcrawler

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The acrobatic and charming Kurt Wagner has always seemed, to me, rather misplaced with the X-Men. Even amongst his own teammates, he seemed like the perpetual outsider, moreso than Wolverine (who could at least walk to the corner store without needing advanced technology to disguise himself). Many authors tried to make him a "fuzzy elf" character (*gag*), but I always liked him back at the beginning, when he was doing what he did best. Being dark, spooky, and a bit otherworldly. He was the perfect example of a "doomed hero."

Between his deep affection for churches and religion, his shame of his appearance, and his twisted sense of humor, he was a tragic character the likes of which hadn't been seen since a certain green goliath first rumbled onto the scene and started throwing tanks around.

I mean, let's look at this. Peter Parker's married to a buxom supermodel, is a dashing young hero, and is a scientific genius to boot, while Nightcrawler is a misshapen (let's not pull punches here) freak who can't even stick his head out a window without priests and police being called.

We're supposed to believe that Nightcrawler's going to skip around merrily while Peter routinely measures the circumference of his wrist with a kitchen knife? The mind just boggles.

What he brings to the party: A wit as sharp as his sword, and a deep sense of tragedy, if we play our cards right.

7) Stingray

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Yeah, we're getting pretty obscure here. But this guy is just too damn cool not to make it onto this list.

Here's the backstory for you who are still rather wet-behind-the-ears.

Hired by the United States Government to figure out a means of finding, battling, and subduing the Sub-Mariner (a mighty quest for any individual), oceanographer Walter Newell designed the Stringray suit and wore it himself since, y'know, if you're not willing to test out your own experiments, how can you honestly have someone else try them?

And the gee-golly thing worked. Prince Namor was captured, and put on public display for all to see. Keep in mind, this was during a time where Namor's public image pretty much consisted of him: A) invading the "surface world" every other week, and B) being the Marvel Universe's biggest jackass.

But that was it. The guy had no urge to go traipsing about, fighting crime, battling Doctor Doom every other month, or anything else. When it came right down to it, our good man here was simply a scientist seeing if it could be done.

Now, take that desire and scientific knowlege, and throw them in with this ragtag lot... I think you know where I'm going with this.

Besides, it's always good to have one water-travelling member on the team, and I already swore off the Sub-Mariner.

8 and 9) Cloak and Dagger

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And the pit of obscurity just keeps getting deeper and deeper, huh? :D

Look, it's already been established that, when you boil this team down to its base elements, we're going a tad bit darker than many writers have gone in the past.

BUT. In order for that to work, you need that one beacon of light to counteract that darkness. Somebody who can be the Shadowcat (or Jubilee, I guess, if you're into that sort of thing) to your Wolverine and keep you from crossing that final line.

That's where Dagger comes in. This is a girl whose idealism and innocence could melt (or at least soften) the heart of anybody else on this team and get them to stand down from punching somebody's head into their pelvis.

Plus, it's a visual medium. If we don't have more eye candy in here soon for you guys, there'll be a revolt. So here, a special gift:

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Yeah, you know you like the idea.

On the flipside, however, we have Cloak. A man who can see the darkness in a person's very soul and is all too happy to judge them based on that rather than if they plan on redeeming themselves. We call this "two sides, one coin" when it comes to this pairing. His cloak acts as a gateway to another dimension where those he banishes suffer appropriately (in his mind) for their crimes.

What they bring to the party: A working if tense relationship (always good), innocence with a touch of sexy, and a character who's going to garner conflict within with his "the best way to keep a thief from stealing is to chop off his hands" mentality.

10) Moon Knight

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Every now and again, someone at Marvel gets the bright idea to try to turn him into the next "Real American Hero."

Oh, please.

The guy had never seemed that comfortable bumping elbows with your high-profile heroes of the day. He's one of the few heroes I know that lit his own Avengers membership card on fire and tosses it onto the table in front of the other team members.

Let's see what's going on with him:

He's an ex-mercenary for hire.

He's been protrayed as suffering from a rather severe case of Multiple Personality Disorder.

He's the earthly servitor of Konshu, the ancient Egyptian "moon god" or whatever he goes by.

Yeah, he belongs up there bumping elbows with Captain America. :?

However, we have room for such an oddball character here! After all, one day around these guys, he's going to feel downright normal. :D

What he brings to the party: A sense of mystery and resolve. And, one of the coolest costumes in comics history, to boot.

11) The Sandman

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Poor Sandman. Marvel can't decide what to do with this poor schlub.

Every time a writer gets his hands on the character, he either goes from being a cold-blooded supervillain to the ultimate "hard luck Joe" of the Marvel set. He gets bounced back and forth so often, they should have named him "Speedball." I'm just saying, is all.

Sounds like perfect Defenders material to me.

The guy has met (and traded blows with) a majority of the other heroes and villains of the Marvel Universe. No matter where this team goes, this guy's got the connections.

Besides, he's made of sand! That's freakish enough to all but have 'Approved' stamped on his silicone butt.

What he brings to the party: See above.

12) Tagak the Leopard Lord

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This one should be painfully obvious.

So, with that, I-....what do you MEAN you've never heard of this guy before?

Oh for crying out loud, people.

Okay, here goes. Tagak first appeared in Daredevil #72 way back in 1970. He's from a mirror dimension of our own world, and has a deep sense of calm and inner strength. He's loathe to ever reduce to physical violence, but can kick some serious hiney when he needs to.

Plus, he's also, for all intents and purposes, blind, only able to see through the eyes of his large leopard familiar "Opar". He can also essentially teleport to anywhere he needs to go, so long as there's a mirror here he can step into, and a mirror there he can step out of.

In other words, this guy's weird.

Perfect to round out this team.

What he brings to the party: Calm. Reason. Self-control. And a huge-ass kitty cat. :D

So, in the immortal words of MST3K...

"What do you think, sirs?"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 6:51 pm 
Nice touch, Lady. :D

Had to admit though... had to do some research on most (read as 80%), of the characters you put in.

But looks awesome! :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 10:57 pm 
Fascinating. Really awesome article.

Liked the choices for the characters with the ones I know, and the ones I don't are intriguing.

Now... at the risk of sounding really stupid...

...I've only read a bit of the run from the 70's... and I think most of the 90's stuff was crappola...

...BUT...

...Adam Warlock. How would he mesh with the line-up given?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:16 pm 
Hee hee. Mr. Coppertone.

I actually liked the Early Warlock.

...and then the Infinity Gauntlet saga began, and he became one of those guys who now only socializes with people who are on a cosmic level.

The guy has tea on a regular basis with Thanos. I'm sorry, but he would way too easily say the line "It's the Infinity Chalice!"

Early Warlock, I might allow. Current Warlock...no.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:18 pm 
Me with a big gun.

Hey, I'm better than most of the usual lineup.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:37 pm 
Wow.

Um...

Wow.

um...
Rakka wrote:
I'm going to post my list, and simply dazzle you with the complexity and deep planning I've put into these.

Yeah. That thing.

Wow.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2004 12:08 am 
Rakka wrote:
Hee hee. Mr. Coppertone.

I actually liked the Early Warlock.

...and then the Infinity Gauntlet saga began, and he became one of those guys who now only socializes with people who are on a cosmic level.

The guy has tea on a regular basis with Thanos. I'm sorry, but he would way too easily say the line "It's the Infinity Chalice!"

Early Warlock, I might allow. Current Warlock...no.


Exactly.

Early Warlock is what I had in mind.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2004 6:53 pm 
Ahem.

Neat, fun, and all that. HOWEVER.. (you knew that was comin', didn'tcha? :twisted: )

You've got a couple critical oopsies in there.

You mentioned yourself that you're light on the eyecandy department. Niff said on that context.

You're lacking:
Psionic ability
Mystic ability
A tactician

The one thing you're DEFINITELY not missing is a sense of humor. *wry grin*

-John


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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2004 8:47 pm 
Wow... And here I thought I was the only remaining Defenders fan. :wink:
Awesome lineup! Nice balance overall and some interesting choices. I heartily approve of the first four: the "core team" if you will.

Son of Satan: one of my long time fav's and a member of the 2nd generation team. Spooky, smart and brooding, plus he covers the Doc Strange angle.

Valkyrie: Had to be in the team. She is to the Defenders what Martian Manhunter is to the JLA-- the single thread linking the past teams with the present team and teams yet-to-be.

Nighthawk: You said everything that needed to be said except-- someone's got to pay the bills. Why not him? Yeah, definitely make sure its rich, playboy Kyle, not the bland, flying Captain America version that showed up occasionally. Plus that way you can bounce him off of...

Luke Cage: Awwwww YEAH! I've read his books since the very beginning, and while my personal fav is the classic PM/IF series, its nice to see him away from Danny Rand. This is the guy who can keep the team grounded and remind them of why exactly they're called the Defenders. Plus, it would be fun to see him and the rich kid Nighthawk interact.

The rest all work for me, more or less except...

(You knew I was gonna have to argue with you somewhere.)

Stingray: I've never really cared for him and I find it doubtful that he'll ever be more than a tech fix answer to a given plotline's problem. I'd rather that the scientist aspect get handed to a third party, maybe a non-combatant. Replace him with...

Jessica Jones: The team needs a detective and her connection to Luke makes her perfect. She might not be in every story arc, but I think she'd be a great addition. Plus, higher babe count!

Juggernaut: Sorry, but while he has become an interesting character, he's just too damn powerful for our little group. Not only does he overshadow Luke and Val, but anything which can seriously hurt him will smear the rest of the team. So, off he goes, and in comes...

Ghostrider: That's right, the baddest ass in black leather EVAH!! Screw Lobo, this hellbound biker is the real main man! And he adds some needed air support and firepower.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2004 9:31 pm 
Discarnate wrote:
Ahem.

Neat, fun, and all that. HOWEVER.. (you knew that was comin', didn'tcha? :twisted: )

You've got a couple critical oopsies in there.


Huzzah, a debate!

Discarnate wrote:
You mentioned yourself that you're light on the eyecandy department. Niff said on that context.


Hey, the Justice League lasted for years with only Wonder Woman. At least I've got two.

Discarnate wrote:
You're lacking:
Psionic ability
Mystic ability
A tactician


Psionic ability actually bothered me for a bit. If they go against some giant telepathic beast, they'd have a hard time fighting it.

But, thinking back to obscure data about comic book characters, I think I can come up with an argument.

First of all, and don't hold me to this, as I'm not positive, but at one point I believe Sandman became immune to psychic attacks.

This is pretty much since his brain, like the rest of him, is silicon-based as opposed to flesh and blood, along the lines as how Plastic Man can (supposedly) clean the Martian Manhunter's clock by being immune to mind-reading.

Yeah, it's weak, but it's all I've got. However, I do recall that Valkyrie and Daimon Hellstrom both had superior defenses against psionic arts, IIRC.

Mystic ability, we've got Daimon Hellstrom himself. The man IS the literal Son of Satan. In Hell (where he, y'know, kinda rules part-time) he's all powerful. Outside, he still has access to his mystical hellfire and is a highly competant mage.

We've also got a magical sword with Valkyrie, whatever powers Moon Knight happens to have at the time of his writing (I swear, the guy was highly inconsistant), and Juggernaut's 'reduce me to a skeleton, I'm going to keep coming at you' ability.

As for a tactician...well, you've got me there, sorta. Daimon Hellstrom is a good leader. Nighthawk can get some simple tactics down. Nightcrawler lead Excalibur in its most successful run.

We can pull off some good tactics, but nothing like the Avengers. Then again, we're not supposed to be the Avengers. :wink: It's always a little comforting to know that in any Defenders issue, there's still that tension amongst the whole team.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2004 10:28 pm 
Rakka wrote:
Discarnate wrote:
Ahem.

Neat, fun, and all that. HOWEVER.. (you knew that was comin', didn'tcha? :twisted: )

You've got a couple critical oopsies in there

Huzzah, a debate!

Have at thee, dark and sinister lady! *grin*

Rakka wrote:
Discarnate wrote:
You mentioned yourself that you're light on the eyecandy department. Niff said on that context.

Hey, the Justice League lasted for years with only Wonder Woman. At least I've got two.


*evil grin* I'll just leave THAT straight line alone!

Rakka wrote:
Discarnate wrote:
You're lacking:
Psionic ability
Mystic ability
A tactician

Psionic ability actually bothered me for a bit. If they go against some giant telepathic beast, they'd have a hard time fighting it.

But, thinking back to obscure data about comic book characters, I think I can come up with an argument.

First of all, and don't hold me to this, as I'm not positive, but at one point I believe Sandman became immune to psychic attacks.

This is pretty much since his brain, like the rest of him, is silicon-based as opposed to flesh and blood, along the lines as how Plastic Man can (supposedly) clean the Martian Manhunter's clock by being immune to mind-reading.

Yeah, it's weak, but it's all I've got. However, I do recall that Valkyrie and Daimon Hellstrom both had superior defenses against psionic arts, IIRC.


Valkyrie had such superior defenses that she was taken over mentally not once, but repeatedly. *wry grin* I dunno much about Hellstrom,tho'. (Have to wonder how Hellstrom and Cloak would get along, if at all)

Sandman? I do not recall his invulnerability to psionics, but I shan't dispute you on that. There are plenty of other fun ways to deal with the Sandman, however. A nice firehose comes to mind, or any of a gazillion flaming people...

Rakka wrote:
Mystic ability, we've got Daimon Hellstrom himself. The man IS the literal Son of Satan. In Hell (where he, y'know, kinda rules part-time) he's all powerful. Outside, he still has access to his mystical hellfire and is a highly competant mage.

We've also got a magical sword with Valkyrie, whatever powers Moon Knight happens to have at the time of his writing (I swear, the guy was highly inconsistant), and Juggernaut's 'reduce me to a skeleton, I'm going to keep coming at you' ability.


Hellstrom probably has some interesting mystical limitations, too. Holy symbols and ground come to immediate mind, amongs others. Did he have any mystical ability other than the ability to pull off destructive fire?

Moon Knight's mystic abilities were all over the place, yeah, as well as his ongoing death from various nasty diseases or whatever the heck he had.

Valkyrie did have the magic weapons, and I thought a mount of some sort, too. However, that's really not all that flexible, mystically.

Rakka wrote:
As for a tactician...well, you've got me there, sorta. Daimon Hellstrom is a good leader. Nighthawk can get some simple tactics down. Nightcrawler lead Excalibur in its most successful run.

We can pull off some good tactics, but nothing like the Avengers. Then again, we're not supposed to be the Avengers. :wink: It's always a little comforting to know that in any Defenders issue, there's still that tension amongst the whole team.


Actually, wouldn't Moon Knight have that capability, to some degree? And you're right about Nightcrawler, but they're both peripherial characters in your group. Shouldn't your tactical capability be inthe core?

-John


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2004 2:36 am 
Loki wrote:
Some good stuff.


I debated Jessica Jones. I swear to god, I debated having her on the team. I loved her in "Alias", and I like her now...but there were several reasons why I didn't put her in.

1) She's pregnant with Luke Cage's baby.

2) She's already going to be showing up now and again as a guest star due to above.

3) She's currently showing up in another comic whose name escapes me (somebody help me out. The Edge, or something?) where she works for the Daily Bugle as a reporter.

Other people I debated but took out, due to either lack of room or simply because they were busy or dead were:

1) Pete Wisdom, whose gruffness I always appreciated. I would have brought him and Kitty Pryde on board together as a team instead of Cloak and Dagger.

Too bad he died. :mad:

2) Amanda Sefton. I thought about her because she's:

A) A sorceress.

B) Got an interesting ex-romantic 'we grew up together' relationship with Nightcrawler.

C) Daughter of an insane sorceress mother who once used a member of Excalibur to tap into the power of a demon and light London ablaze.

D) A redhead.

Unfortunately, I ran out of room, and last I checked, she was ruling Belasco's little pit of hell. I didn't need her and Daimon butting heads.

She came this close, though.

THIS close!

3) Banshee. The only one of the new X-Men that Magneto, his own bad self, said upon battle with them was the one worth fighting.

Ya hear that, you Wolverine lovers? Huh? Do ya? How do you like THEM apples, huh? :D

...*cough*

Anyway, the man knew tactics, had his experiences with the bazarre, and had his own haunted castle. Can you say 'home base'? I knew you could.

Close, but not close enough.

Anyway, back to my rebuttal.

...I honestly agree with you about Juggernaut. Damn.

...oh, well, I've got a spot on another team for that big lug. :wink:

Okay, then! In the spirit of debate, I'm considering a new option instead of Juggernaut!

And no, not Ghost Rider. Never liked him, never will. Sorry. Great character concept...but he doesn't /quite/ belong on this team.

Besides, we all know he belongs with the Champions. :wink:

So...in the place of Juggernaut, to fill that pesky 'psionic' need that I seem to be lacking, I'm going with this guy:

Replacement: Chamber

Image

Let's see what we've got to work with here.

Jonothon Evan Starsmore's life changed the day his mutant power materialized. His body, from his lower jaw to upper chest, exploded in raw psionic energy that he has had trouble controlling ever since.

This blast also pretty much robbed his girlfriend (The Lady Gayle Edgarton to you poor people) of her ability to use her legs.

Jono (to his friends, 'that guy without a face' to his enemies) seems to be composed entirely of psionic energy. He has no need to breathe, eat, or drink, since he doesn't have lungs, a heart, or mouth.

Kinda puts a damper on your lovelife, as evidenced by the fact that his relationship with a young Paige Guthrie fell apart (you can call her "Husk", easily one of the stupidest superhero names ever). I'm not even going to discuss the fact that she's now getting cozy with the high-flying Angel. Just...ew, okay?

...though, I hear there's this trick he does with his pinfeathers...*cough*

Anyway. Jono has all you need for a good Defender. He's powerful (just ask a highly surprised D'Spayre), moody, dark, and not afraid to state his mind.

And he's got just enough angst to make Nightcrawler and all the rest of them to say "Geez, buddy...lighten up."

But they'd be thinking "Thank God I'm not HIM." :P

He's that perfect balance of the freakish, the sorrowful, and the downright dark side of having a mutant power that you don't get with your average, say, "Meltdown" or "Nate Grey".

And, he covers that pesky 'psionics' thing. Ya happy now, Discarnate? :P

What he brings to the party: Psionics (Well, Discarnate, ARE YOU?), a bitter sense of irony, and twelve gallons of angst in a ten gallon hat.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2004 2:50 am 
Discarnate wrote:
I dunno much about Hellstrom,tho'. (Have to wonder how Hellstrom and Cloak would get along, if at all)

Sandman? I do not recall his invulnerability to psionics, but I shan't dispute you on that. There are plenty of other fun ways to deal with the Sandman, however. A nice firehose comes to mind, or any of a gazillion flaming people...


Yeah, I'm sure we all expect Fin Fang Foom to be carrying around a firehose with him. :wink:

As for Hellstrom and Cloak...well, every team needs a wild card. It's what we like to call "makes for good storytelling."

Discarnate wrote:
Hellstrom probably has some interesting mystical limitations, too. Holy symbols and ground come to immediate mind, amongs others. Did he have any mystical ability other than the ability to pull off destructive fire?

Moon Knight's mystic abilities were all over the place, yeah, as well as his ongoing death from various nasty diseases or whatever the heck he had.

Valkyrie did have the magic weapons, and I thought a mount of some sort, too. However, that's really not all that flexible, mystically.


Remember, we're not aiming for the end all-be all powerful team here. That's the problem we had with having the Silver Surfer and Doc Strange on the same team.

I mean, you just knew at one point Nighthawk was going to sit around watching tv, when the alarm came in. He'd tip his chin back, think for a second as the crisis was described as being Morg or the Shaper of Worlds... "Nah, they'll get it."

And in a case where Dormammu gets uppity? Well, that's why they invented the "Because you demanded it, a super-cool guest-star!" issue.

Discarnate wrote:
Actually, wouldn't Moon Knight have that capability, to some degree? And you're right about Nightcrawler, but they're both peripherial characters in your group. Shouldn't your tactical capability be inthe core?


Daimon Hellstrom is, on his own, quite a competant leader of people. And most (having trouble thinking of any who wouldn't, even Cloak) have been on squads or team-ups enough times to be able to handle working in a team environment.

And hey, it'd hardly be the first time you'd have someone skulking in the back on a team giving special advice on how to fight someone. (Read: Batman on the JLA, Hank Pym in the Avengers, Tony Stark on speed-dial if you're somehow stuck on the Avengers West Coast, Brainiac 5 on the Legion...)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2004 1:08 pm 
Not a bad line up.

I just have one small issue with this line up. Hellstorm cannot be trusted for one damned inch. Well, prior to his taking over dad's gig, he wasn't that bad. But all that I've seen since, in my webcrawling (pun intended), says this guy is about as trustworthy as Dr. Doom or Belasco imnsho.

Replace him with Amanda Sefton. She covers the magical aspect quite nicely, increases the babe factor, the failed romance side with Kurt (I still think they look cute together) and as for the leadership issues.

Both Val and Nighthawk have been second in command to Strange and have lead the team in the field, while the Doc was providing backup from his mansion. Toss in Kurt's leadership skills and you're more than covered.

Heck, you can introduce Kurt to the crew thanks to a certain blue-furred brainiac, who for some reason has been turned into a pussycat by the nitwits over at Marvel.

Side note: I'd up the group size to 6 with a maximum of 4 backups/replacements. FF has shown one too many time, that knocking out one of their number leaves them highly vulnerable due to a loss of skills. Avengers have dealt better with situations like that due to their larger group formations.

Plus it means that Val has someone to spar with in the swordfighting department. :P

As for transportation. (This due to the loss of the Hellstorm charriot) Rather depends if Moonie is still loaded or not. Else between him and Nighthawk they should have enough to get their hands on a surplus Quin Jet for any long distance flying trip. This would further work due to Kurt's skills as a pilot.

Btw, I'm kinda missing one guy in this equation. Gargoyle. I rather liked the friendship between him and Val. Plus he's quite resilient for an old bugger and adds some more long rangeand highly mobile firepower to the mix.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2004 5:55 pm 
IS_Wolf wrote:
I just have one small issue with this line up. Hellstorm cannot be trusted for one damned inch. Well, prior to his taking over dad's gig, he wasn't that bad. But all that I've seen since, in my webcrawling (pun intended), says this guy is about as trustworthy as Dr. Doom or Belasco imnsho.

Replace him with Amanda Sefton. She covers the magical aspect quite nicely, increases the babe factor, the failed romance side with Kurt (I still think they look cute together) and as for the leadership issues.


Hee hee. I wondered if anybody would recall this.

Yes, he manipulated the Fantastic Four to help destroy the Hellfire Club.

Yes, he manipulated Hawkeye and the Thunderbolts to free his wife from Hell.

But, even he has to admit that Earth shouldn't be under attack by "Things From Beyond".

Plus, we've also got a few people there (quite a few, really) to act as a moral center for him to "recall".

Remember, characters grow. Right now, Daimon has grown into a bit of a Machiavellian bastard, but he can still grow out of it. :wink:

And while Amanda Sefton is a wonderful wonderful character...she just doesn't have the presence to command people like Cloak, Sandman, or Valkyrie.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2004 9:11 pm 
Rakka wrote:
IS_Wolf wrote:
I just have one small issue with this line up. Hellstorm cannot be trusted for one damned inch. Well, prior to his taking over dad's gig, he wasn't that bad. But all that I've seen since, in my webcrawling (pun intended), says this guy is about as trustworthy as Dr. Doom or Belasco imnsho.

Replace him with Amanda Sefton. She covers the magical aspect quite nicely, increases the babe factor, the failed romance side with Kurt (I still think they look cute together) and as for the leadership issues.


Hee hee. I wondered if anybody would recall this.

Yes, he manipulated the Fantastic Four to help destroy the Hellfire Club.

Yes, he manipulated Hawkeye and the Thunderbolts to free his wife from Hell.

But, even he has to admit that Earth shouldn't be under attack by "Things From Beyond".

Plus, we've also got a few people there (quite a few, really) to act as a moral center for him to "recall".

Remember, characters grow. Right now, Daimon has grown into a bit of a Machiavellian bastard, but he can still grow out of it. :wink:

And while Amanda Sefton is a wonderful wonderful character...she just doesn't have the presence to command people like Cloak, Sandman, or Valkyrie.


Well, what I've read about him, had him killing off certain folks working for the Good (supposedly angels) team. Heck, his new main squeeze, despite his marriage with Patsy is..

Well.. How can I put this nicely.. I'd rank her just above Shriek for mental stability. Plus this doesn't count Daimon's "relationship" with his sister, who makes the old school Enchantress seem like a frigid nun.

You need a team to work together, not work against each other. Heck, teaming Kurt alone with Daimon presents problems due to Kurt's faith. Him working together with someone who runs a variant of Hell.. *shakes head*

Then there's Moonknight's working for a deity of justice and retribution. That's going to go along well with a being that is the son of some Summerian demon-lord who pretended to be the Christian Satan. (Seem to recall the Summerian and Egyptian deities not getting along exactly.)

Cloak would probably want to eat him, due to the Darkness within him. And iirc Nighthawk didn't fully trust him either. Trust issues = bad for teamwork.

As for the leadership issue, like I said. Kurt has leadership skills, heck he's even commanded a certain Canadian beserker whom you dislike so much. :wink: Val and Nighthawk have also lead the team, yes the Doc was back at the mansion to smooth things over, but they still have the potential. They just need the chance to show off their stuff.

It's one of the reasons why I suggested going for the 6 man group as opposed to the 4.

Magic II, Nightcrawler, Valkyrie, Nighthawk, Luke Cage and Chamber does a better job at covering all your bases.

As for Sandy. He and Nighthawk could have some thing to talk about with regards to reforming, same applies to Moonie, considering that Sandy too has been a merc.

I know. I know. You don't want another Avengers in how well they work together. But working together is key to them surviving at all, and considering the things they'd be facing.. Learning on the go isn't an option.

Btw no opinion on Gargoyle as one of the backups?? :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2004 1:20 pm 
IS_Wolf wrote:
Well, what I've read about him, had him killing off certain folks working for the Good (supposedly angels) team. Heck, his new main squeeze, despite his marriage with Patsy is..

Well.. How can I put this nicely.. I'd rank her just above Shriek for mental stability. Plus this doesn't count Daimon's "relationship" with his sister, who makes the old school Enchantress seem like a frigid nun.

You need a team to work together, not work against each other. Heck, teaming Kurt alone with Daimon presents problems due to Kurt's faith. Him working together with someone who runs a variant of Hell.. *shakes head*


I actually considered this. But, one of Kurt's appealing strengths is that despite the fact he's faced Mephisto, besides the fact that his adoptive mother was making deals with demons, and besides the fact that his ex-main squeeze (Ms. Sefton again) was ruling over what used to be Belasco's kingdom...

Well, if Amanda can do it and still be moral, perhaps there's a chance for salvation in Daimon? :wink: Kurt's faith has been pretty much steadfast through everything. Including the realization (I believe) that his father was actually a demon (someone else has to confirm this for me, I believe it was in a recent issue of X-Men).

See, he and Daimon have that nice little "Oh, you too?" detail to connect them. :wink:

IS_Wolf wrote:
Then there's Moonknight's working for a deity of justice and retribution. That's going to go along well with a being that is the son of some Summerian demon-lord who pretended to be the Christian Satan. (Seem to recall the Summerian and Egyptian deities not getting along exactly.)


I don't recall said deity getting pissed when Moon Knight was working with a bona-fide Thunder God. :wink:

Yes, yes, I know, there's a difference. But, would said deity be that upset considering Daimon killed said father of his? That's some poetic justice right there.

IS_Wolf wrote:
Cloak would probably want to eat him, due to the Darkness within him. And iirc Nighthawk didn't fully trust him either. Trust issues = bad for teamwork.
IS_Wolf wrote:

Ah, but trust issues = good storytelling.

Be honest. Some of the best storytelling in JLA in recent years was when half the team was looking at Batman going "...whose side is he ON, anyway?"

Cloak's gotten pretty shaken up lately. In the recent issue of Runaways, he had to learn that you can't just trust other people when they say somebody's bad.

Plus, he's been able to work alongside Dagger, Moon Knight, and the Punisher before in the Marvel Knights series. Dagger and Moon Knight can act as a calming influence, since if he wasn't ripping Frank Castle into shreds, odds are he won't try to take on Hellstrom.

IS_Wolf wrote:
As for the leadership issue, like I said. Kurt has leadership skills, heck he's even commanded a certain Canadian beserker whom you dislike so much. :wink: Val and Nighthawk have also lead the team, yes the Doc was back at the mansion to smooth things over, but they still have the potential. They just need the chance to show off their stuff.

It's one of the reasons why I suggested going for the 6 man group as opposed to the 4.


By picking four people, I was trying to stay with tradition. In the Defenders, the core team was 4. In the Secret Defenders (god, I must be the only person out there with any issues of that still) we also had 4. And even then, Doc Strange would frequently not even be there for some of the missions. Nothing says Hellstrom has to constantly be at the forefront.

Something about that number worked, so why change it? :wink:

IS_Wolf wrote:
Magic II, Nightcrawler, Valkyrie, Nighthawk, Luke Cage and Chamber does a better job at covering all your bases.

As for Sandy. He and Nighthawk could have some thing to talk about with regards to reforming, same applies to Moonie, considering that Sandy too has been a merc.

I know. I know. You don't want another Avengers in how well they work together. But working together is key to them surviving at all, and considering the things they'd be facing.. Learning on the go isn't an option.


Each person here has, at some point or another, worked on a team and knows team dynamics. Sandman was even a member of the Avengers.

The only person here who hasn't been on a team is my last choice (not Chamber)...and he's calm and able enough to just mesh with a team perfectly. (Why oh why doesn't Marvel do anything with these characters? Why does Wolverine need five books to appear in?!)

IS_Wolf wrote:
Btw no opinion on Gargoyle as one of the backups?? :wink:


Actually, I considered him. And then I realized I had no clue what his current status is, as Marvel hasn't had him in a book in what, years?

You wouldn't happen to know his last current whereabouts, would you? Last time I saw him was 'Earth X', and I know that doesn't count.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2004 7:26 pm 
One thing: wasn't the whole point of the Defenders to deal with wacky cosmic hijinks? And I thought the excuse for Dr. Strange, Hulk, Namor, and the Silver Surfer teaming up was because they were basically forced to by some sort of curse.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2004 9:22 pm 
Rakka wrote:

I actually considered this. But, one of Kurt's appealing strengths is that despite the fact he's faced Mephisto, besides the fact that his adoptive mother was making deals with demons, and besides the fact that his ex-main squeeze (Ms. Sefton again) was ruling over what used to be Belasco's kingdom...

Well, if Amanda can do it and still be moral, perhaps there's a chance for salvation in Daimon? :wink: Kurt's faith has been pretty much steadfast through everything. Including the realization (I believe) that his father was actually a demon (someone else has to confirm this for me, I believe it was in a recent issue of X-Men).

See, he and Daimon have that nice little "Oh, you too?" detail to connect them. :wink:


Well, I have been out of the comic loop since. Well. The Hunt for Xavier roundabout. But what I've picked up from my webcrawling, (CoH forums were a real boon when they were still open to the general public) is that the creative teams over at Marvel have been sniffing glue again.

Not only did they turn Beast into a pussy cat, I'm not joking here.
Kurt is supposedly the son of some supposed demon lord, plus Angel is supposedly an actual angel (think Archangel Gabriel or Michael with his flaming sword.)

Somebody needs to do some serious retconning to have everything make sense again, because the current crud tends to go against established continuity.

(Kurt's teleporting abilities were supposedly natural to all the offspring of his father, if so then why did Kurt show up on Cerebro, which only registers mutants?? If Angel is actually an Angel of God, then again why did he show up on Cerebro?? And don't bring up Betsy showing up as well on Cerebro, while she was actually part fey. The folks from Otherworld do not have telepathy, so she could indeed be a mutant. Just not a completely human one. Kinda like, what was his name?? Adam X?? The third Summer kid??)

As for saving Daimon. Uhm, he doesn't want to be saved, last I saw he enjoys what he's doing a little too much. It would be akin to Kurt trying to "save" Sabertooth. Plus, how in the Bloody Nine Hells (no pun intended), could Kurt reconcile his faith, by following a guy, who actually kills off the direct servants (Angels) of the God he (Kurt) follows.

It would be akin to Storm, who last I checked is still into that whole African Earthgoddess thing, following someone who purposely destroys nature and the various ecosystems, just because it's fun.

Side note, now the pre-ascension Daimon could've worked with Kurt, due to their catholic backgrounds, fight against demons yada yada. The new Daimon on the other hand represents everything that Kurt seems to loathe.

Rakka wrote:
IS_Wolf wrote:
Then there's Moonknight's working for a deity of justice and retribution. That's going to go along well with a being that is the son of some Summerian demon-lord who pretended to be the Christian Satan. (Seem to recall the Summerian and Egyptian deities not getting along exactly.)


I don't recall said deity getting pissed when Moon Knight was working with a bona-fide Thunder God. :wink:

Yes, yes, I know, there's a difference. But, would said deity be that upset considering Daimon killed said father of his? That's some poetic justice right there.


To answer you last question first. Not really, because Daimon knows that his father will be reborn in his own son, the one he had with some witch for certain services she rendered for him.

1.
2.

As for the Khonshu - Thor thing, It would totally depend on how the Egyptian and Norse deities interacted. Considering that the latter also fought against the machinations of Seth, and with Seth being one of Khnoshu's enemies, I think it's safe to say, they're on fairly good terms with one and other.

Though I do have to admit that it seems that Daimon and Khonshu met each other before, course this could've occurred before the former's ascendence to his father's throne thing. And that would change the whole ballgame.

(West Coast Avengers II#41)- Daimon Hellstrom released Khonshu from the Moon Knight for help against the ghosts of the first two Phantom Riders. His presence on Earth attracted the attention of Seth, who was then invading Asgard. Attempts to destroy Khonshu as a possible threat to their invasion were met with resistance from Hellstrom, the current Phantom Rider, Moon Knight, Tigra and Mockingbird, during which Moon Knight's special weaponry was destroyed. Khonshu then departed from Marc Spector permanently, to join in the battle against Seth.

Rakka wrote:
IS_Wolf wrote:
Cloak would probably want to eat him, due to the Darkness within him. And iirc Nighthawk didn't fully trust him either. Trust issues = bad for teamwork.


Ah, but trust issues = good storytelling.

Be honest. Some of the best storytelling in JLA in recent years was when half the team was looking at Batman going "...whose side is he ON, anyway?"

Cloak's gotten pretty shaken up lately. In the recent issue of Runaways, he had to learn that you can't just trust other people when they say somebody's bad.

Plus, he's been able to work alongside Dagger, Moon Knight, and the Punisher before in the Marvel Knights series. Dagger and Moon Knight can act as a calming influence, since if he wasn't ripping Frank Castle into shreds, odds are he won't try to take on Hellstrom.


Granted, but I seem to recall something about the darkness within a person dictating how hungry he gets. Yes, the Punisher can be considered a mass murderer. But would such a person be darker than a ruler of hell??

Dagger would have to work overtime to counteract his hunger, I'm not exactly sure how much juice she would have left for an upcoming fight afterwards.

And while you're correct that lack of trust can lead to good storytelling, if not handled properly it can also lead to the question of why are these guys bothering working together it's obvious they hate each other, thus destroying the state of disbelief.

It's akin to Batman being forced to work over and over with Huntress II, the bumping of heads is only going to escalate and with each conflict it's going to get stronger and stronger. In the end they'll be at each other's throats.

While it makes for interesting reading, it's also not quite desirable for a teambook. Some conflict is good. But conflict all the time isn't.

Btw the links I provided, should key you in on some of the stuff that Hellstorm has been doing since ye old days. If you're complaining about Logan being the epitomy of the anti-hero, then you've seen nothing yet.


Rakka wrote:
IS_Wolf wrote:
As for the leadership issue, like I said. Kurt has leadership skills, heck he's even commanded a certain Canadian beserker whom you dislike so much. :wink: Val and Nighthawk have also lead the team, yes the Doc was back at the mansion to smooth things over, but they still have the potential. They just need the chance to show off their stuff.

It's one of the reasons why I suggested going for the 6 man group as opposed to the 4.


By picking four people, I was trying to stay with tradition. In the Defenders, the core team was 4. In the Secret Defenders (god, I must be the only person out there with any issues of that still) we also had 4. And even then, Doc Strange would frequently not even be there for some of the missions. Nothing says Hellstrom has to constantly be at the forefront.

Something about that number worked, so why change it? :wink:


So who were the core 4 in the New Defenders?? :wink:
It also had Val leading the team. :P

As for why I prefer 6 folks, it's tactically more expedient, allows for more differing interaction patterns and it allows for a more varied storytelling. After the 30th time of Ben bemoaning his mutated self it gets rather old.

Core JLA is 6, core Avenger is 6. Core new X-Men (when they first appeared) was 6 and later it lampooned into infinity. :) New Warriors is 6 also iirc. New Mutants and Teen Titans were both bigger than 6 even.

Heck, look at IW!, does it have 4 members per squad?? Nope, it's 5.

Bigger can be better at times. :P (SCNR hehe..)

Rakka wrote:
IS_Wolf wrote:
Magic II, Nightcrawler, Valkyrie, Nighthawk, Luke Cage and Chamber does a better job at covering all your bases.

As for Sandy. He and Nighthawk could have some thing to talk about with regards to reforming, same applies to Moonie, considering that Sandy too has been a merc.

I know. I know. You don't want another Avengers in how well they work together. But working together is key to them surviving at all, and considering the things they'd be facing.. Learning on the go isn't an option.


Each person here has, at some point or another, worked on a team and knows team dynamics. Sandman was even a member of the Avengers.

The only person here who hasn't been on a team is my last choice (not Chamber)...and he's calm and able enough to just mesh with a team perfectly. (Why oh why doesn't Marvel do anything with these characters? Why does Wolverine need five books to appear in?!)


Because Marvel wants to earn money and milking cash cows is easier than coming up with something new. Or re-inventing something old.

Btw, I'm reserving judgement on your cat guy, don't know him, so I can't say either way how he'd fit.

Anyway, I think you misunderstood my point. It's not that these guys are inexperienced superheroes, or that they have no experience working in teams. It's their inexperience in working with each other that's the main issue. They need to minimize the potential pitfalls of working with someone new. So the last thing you need is the team fighting amongst themselves or just not trusting each other.

Considering the types of foes they'd be facing. They need to gel quickly, lest they start losing people. So interteam strife is anathema to that aim.

The JLA can afford to squabble a bit, considering the sheer power of the members. The Defenders couldn't, precisely because they're not supposed to be the top marquee team. Think of Spidey's Outlaws team, considering the potential lineup (Sandman, Spiderman, Prowler, Rocket Racer, Puma, Willow O'the Wisp) it should be relatively easy for them to gel (similar styles and all that). It wasn't. Sure they were fighting the Avengers the first time out of the batting cage, but still.

Now instead of fighting the Avengers, picture them fighting someone like Dormammu (sp?). The Defenders will have the same problem. You cannot afford any lingering animosity. Your revised line-up still has that too much imo.

Rakka wrote:
IS_Wolf wrote:
Btw no opinion on Gargoyle as one of the backups?? :wink:


Actually, I considered him. And then I realized I had no clue what his current status is, as Marvel hasn't had him in a book in what, years?

You wouldn't happen to know his last current whereabouts, would you? Last time I saw him was 'Earth X', and I know that doesn't count.


Looks like he's been forgotten.

3.
4
5

Is about all I can find.

I would love to see the interplay between Kurt and Isaac though. Something tells me that those two would take to each other like ducks to water. :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2004 9:25 pm 
gwalla wrote:
One thing: wasn't the whole point of the Defenders to deal with wacky cosmic hijinks? And I thought the excuse for Dr. Strange, Hulk, Namor, and the Silver Surfer teaming up was because they were basically forced to by some sort of curse.


Mostly demonic hijinks from what I've seen. Course my earliest comic of theirs is nr 71. So I can't say what went on before that.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2004 2:14 pm 
I'm hopping and skipping over a bit of this stuff, as most of my notes are at home. That, and I don't think either of us is going to convince the other fully of their position. :?

Just like arguing at a shop, huh? :D

By the way, I agree with you about Marvel. Whoever's editing their X-Books needs to get their head recalibrated.

IS_Wolf wrote:
(West Coast Avengers II#41)- Daimon Hellstrom released Khonshu from the Moon Knight for help against the ghosts of the first two Phantom Riders. His presence on Earth attracted the attention of Seth, who was then invading Asgard. Attempts to destroy Khonshu as a possible threat to their invasion were met with resistance from Hellstrom, the current Phantom Rider, Moon Knight, Tigra and Mockingbird, during which Moon Knight's special weaponry was destroyed. Khonshu then departed from Marc Spector permanently, to join in the battle against Seth.


I'm going to have to dig out the issue in question, but in Marc Spector's appearance in the Black Panther comic (beautifully written by Christopher Priest. It's the only comic I loved and hated at the same time) it was heavily alluded to that Khonshu was still invovled with Marc Spector during a battle with Nightmare.

More info once I get home tonight.
IS_Wolf wrote:
Granted, but I seem to recall something about the darkness within a person dictating how hungry he gets. Yes, the Punisher can be considered a mass murderer. But would such a person be darker than a ruler of hell??


Okay, I'm snipping that there.

We're about to break into matters of faith and perspective here, and I'm really really hoping it won't come to that.

But here's my two cents anyway, cause I can't resist.

Being "Ruler of Hell" is just a title. Time and again, in both major comic universes, there have been those who have their own little "hells" who aren't completely evil. Amanda Sefton runs one "hell" in the Marvel Universe. In the DC Universe, Hell was handed over to two angels when Lucifer quit.

That's all I'm gonna say. "Ruler of Hell" is just a job title.

IS_Wolf wrote:
As for why I prefer 6 folks, it's tactically more expedient, allows for more differing interaction patterns and it allows for a more varied storytelling. After the 30th time of Ben bemoaning his mutated self it gets rather old.

Core JLA is 6,


Original 'core' JLA was 5. Black Canary, Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern, Flash, Aquaman.

Current 'core' JLA is 7. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Lantern, Flash, Martian Manhunter. They might not all be there all the time, but when DC does a 'one-shot' of the Justice League, those are the ones who show up.

IS_Wolf wrote:
core Avenger is 6,


Ant-Man, Wasp, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk. Captain America didn't join until issue 4, IIRC.

Current 'core' members are Captain America, Thor, and Iron Man. They're the 'big three'. Past that, you have Hank Pym, Wasp, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, and Vision, which bumps you up to 8.

IS_Wolf wrote:
Core new X-Men (when they first appeared) was 6 and later it lampooned into infinity. :)


Marvel Girl, Beast, Iceman, Angel, Cyclops. Unless you're counting Professor X, in which case it is 6, but then we may as well count Charlie as one of the Angels. :wink:

"New" X-Men was Nightcrawler, Cyclops, Thunderbird, Wolverine, Storm, Banshee. So you do have 6 there, unless you were willing to count Professor X amongst the first crew, then you have 7. :P

IS_Wolf wrote:
Teen Titans were bigger than 6 even.


Yeah, I'm editing it a bit.

But this one always gets me.

There were four 'Original' Titans in any meaningful sense of the phrase.

The original Titans (if we're stretching it, even) were Robin, Kid Flash, and Aqualad, way back in Brave and the Bold #54. (1964)

Wonder Girl joined in their very second appearance, The Brave and the Bold #60. (1967)

And just to stop the quibbling now, Speedy didn't show up in the book until Teen Titans #4, and didn't start making regular appearances until #19. So, his first appearance was three years after the team formed. Sorry, pal, you're a bit late.

IS_Wolf wrote:
Btw, I'm reserving judgement on your cat guy, don't know him, so I can't say either way how he'd fit.


I'm actually ashamed to say this, but I managed to fill another hole in my Defenders collection.

The most shameful issues ever to hit the Defenders. The "Be A Defender For A Day". (Dollar Bill, I swear to god you're going to wind up on my "Mort" columns.)

A whole bunch of 'second-bit' characters show up in this issue to try to be a Defender for a Day.

Between the sight of Hulk and Valkyrie making rounds serving coffee, the most bumbling bad guy bust of all time, and...

...well, I'll be doing an issue spotlight on these issues soon enough. Just to share the pain.

But, there is one character who appeared on the cover which drew my eye. A certain "Leopard Lord" arrives to try to join the team. :D

Go me, huh?

IS_Wolf wrote:
Anyway, I think you misunderstood my point. It's not that these guys are inexperienced superheroes, or that they have no experience working in teams. It's their inexperience in working with each other that's the main issue. They need to minimize the potential pitfalls of working with someone new. So the last thing you need is the team fighting amongst themselves or just not trusting each other.

Considering the types of foes they'd be facing. They need to gel quickly, lest they start losing people. So interteam strife is anathema to that aim.

The JLA can afford to squabble a bit, considering the sheer power of the members. The Defenders couldn't, precisely because they're not supposed to be the top marquee team. Think of Spidey's Outlaws team, considering the potential lineup (Sandman, Spiderman, Prowler, Rocket Racer, Puma, Willow O'the Wisp) it should be relatively easy for them to gel (similar styles and all that). It wasn't. Sure they were fighting the Avengers the first time out of the batting cage, but still.

Now instead of fighting the Avengers, picture them fighting someone like Dormammu (sp?). The Defenders will have the same problem. You cannot afford any lingering animosity. Your revised line-up still has that too much imo.


I think we're going to be stuck here. Reading through the issues I've had, I've seen few actual 'tactical' plans. Heck, in the issue mentioned above, it's actually mentioned 'they go into battle without a plan, and yet still manage to come out ahead.'

One of the big hits about the Defenders that, literally, anybody could be amongst its august ranks. I mean for god's sake, they had 'Lunatik' on there. They can't get choosy now. The team has excelled, at many times, as a mismatched fighting force getting together because someone realized they were about to be the last line of defense.

...hmm. That might be an idea. Madame Web leading the Defenders...

Rakka gets lost in thought for a moment.

IS_Wolf wrote:
I would love to see the interplay between Kurt and Isaac though. Something tells me that those two would take to each other like ducks to water. :)


I would, too. :D

Anyway. I think we're pretty much at fixed points on our opinions of who would react to what and who would get along with who. A bit of a debating block, as it were.

Want to just call this one even, and I'll wait for you to get into a heated debate with me on my next team? (Right now, I'm thinking Teen Titans. :D )


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2004 9:35 pm 
Rakka wrote:
IS_Wolf wrote:
Granted, but I seem to recall something about the darkness within a person dictating how hungry he gets. Yes, the Punisher can be considered a mass murderer. But would such a person be darker than a ruler of hell??


Okay, I'm snipping that there.

We're about to break into matters of faith and perspective here, and I'm really really hoping it won't come to that.

But here's my two cents anyway, cause I can't resist.

Being "Ruler of Hell" is just a title. Time and again, in both major comic universes, there have been those who have their own little "hells" who aren't completely evil. Amanda Sefton runs one "hell" in the Marvel Universe. In the DC Universe, Hell was handed over to two angels when Lucifer quit.

That's all I'm gonna say. "Ruler of Hell" is just a job title.


I'd like to point out that, during the "Marvel Knights" miniseries (good concept, mediocre execution BTW), Cloak swallowed Punisher. Nick Castle, of course, was happy as a clam kicking the crap out of all the bastards stuck in Cloak's little pocket dimension.

Quote:
IS_Wolf wrote:
core Avenger is 6,


Ant-Man, Wasp, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk. Captain America didn't join until issue 4, IIRC.

Current 'core' members are Captain America, Thor, and Iron Man. They're the 'big three'. Past that, you have Hank Pym, Wasp, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, and Vision, which bumps you up to 8.


I thought Hulk was a founding member, but became Stupid Hulk again soon afterwards and had to be brought down by the others.

Quote:
IS_Wolf wrote:
Teen Titans were bigger than 6 even.


Yeah, I'm editing it a bit.

But this one always gets me.

There were four 'Original' Titans in any meaningful sense of the phrase.

The original Titans (if we're stretching it, even) were Robin, Kid Flash, and Aqualad, way back in Brave and the Bold #54. (1964)

Wonder Girl joined in their very second appearance, The Brave and the Bold #60. (1967)

And just to stop the quibbling now, Speedy didn't show up in the book until Teen Titans #4, and didn't start making regular appearances until #19. So, his first appearance was three years after the team formed. Sorry, pal, you're a bit late.


He may be thinking of the "New" Teen Titans. Which was Robin/Nightwing, Starfire, Kid Flash, Wonder Girl, Cyborg, and Raven. Beast Boy and Terra weren't as "core" (although Terra was certainly important for the plot).

I hope he's not thinking of the Dan Jurgens incarnation of the team. (Actually, I kinda liked them at first, but Jurgens really dropped the ball writing-wise. The crystal girl could've been a really interesting character due to having been raised in an idealized virtual reality world, and a lot could've been done with her finding out that her life was a lie, her culture shock coming from the Archie/Leave it to Beaver upbringing, etc., but nothing really came of it at all. The black guy with fire powers also started out interesting and was wasted)

Quote:
(Dollar Bill, I swear to god you're going to wind up on my "Mort" columns.)


Wasn't he in Watchmen?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2004 4:34 am 
Rakka wrote:
I'm hopping and skipping over a bit of this stuff, as most of my notes are at home. That, and I don't think either of us is going to convince the other fully of their position. :?


Oh, the struggle to end up on top can be fun at times too. :P


Rakka wrote:
Just like arguing at a shop, huh? :D


Probably, I do most of my arguing online. :lol:

Rakka wrote:
I'm going to have to dig out the issue in question, but in Marc Spector's appearance in the Black Panther comic (beautifully written by Christopher Priest. It's the only comic I loved and hated at the same time) it was heavily alluded to that Khonshu was still invovled with Marc Spector during a battle with Nightmare.

More info once I get home tonight.


No need for that hun, I know that Khonshu popped back into his life later on. Khonshu's acitivites are mentioned on the same site, which had that stuff I linked to about Daimon's old man.

Just felt it fair to point out that Hellstrom and Moonie did/do know each other, but that by the looks of it, it was pre-ascension of Daimon to his current place.


Rakka wrote:
Okay, I'm snipping that there.

We're about to break into matters of faith and perspective here, and I'm really really hoping it won't come to that.

But here's my two cents anyway, cause I can't resist.

Being "Ruler of Hell" is just a title. Time and again, in both major comic universes, there have been those who have their own little "hells" who aren't completely evil. Amanda Sefton runs one "hell" in the Marvel Universe. In the DC Universe, Hell was handed over to two angels when Lucifer quit.

That's all I'm gonna say. "Ruler of Hell" is just a job title.


Is Limbo really a hell though?? That's the damned confusing bit, due to there seemingly being two limbo's in Marvel's universe. There's Belasco's realm, and then there's Immortus' little spot.

The way, I tend to explain it is that Limbo is indeed the same place where Immortus rules, but.... That certain places are stable enough to form their own small pocket dimension within the greater whole of Limbo itself. They still follow some of the same physical laws of Limbo itself, like the temporal anomalies. So while Belasco's and now Amanda's Limbo may seem like hell, it really isn't one. The fact that certain entities inhabit it, who could be termed demons, wouldn't change that. I mean, there are demons living on Earth as well, and it isn't hell either. (well not for most folks. :P)

But back to Daimon, it goes beyond his title as Lord of Hell. Though him ruling a place where the torture of souls, which cannot be exactly deemed all that benign, is a form of amusement, doesn't exactly speak much in his favour.

His new squeeze is a murderess and has also made a bargain with another demon. In exchange for invicible armour, each person she kills has their soul damned to said demon's care.

Daimon himself isn't above killing people either, and he seems to be rather indiscriminate in this. Both cultists and unwilling sacrifices seem like targets of equal opportunity. Plus him killing of angels and their respresentatives. *shakes head*

If you are going to have a mindbender in the team, then you at least need one whom you can trust not to use his abilities on the team itself to achieve his own personal little goals. A la Dr. Druid with the Avengers.

Daimon doesn't meet that criteria imo. But to each his own. Some women just can't say no to a bad boy afterall. :P

Rakka wrote:
IS_Wolf wrote:
As for why I prefer 6 folks, it's tactically more expedient, allows for more differing interaction patterns and it allows for a more varied storytelling. After the 30th time of Ben bemoaning his mutated self it gets rather old.


Core JLA is 6,


Original 'core' JLA was 5. Black Canary, Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern, Flash, Aquaman.

Current 'core' JLA is 7. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Lantern, Flash, Martian Manhunter. They might not all be there all the time, but when DC does a 'one-shot' of the Justice League, those are the ones who show up.


I was thinking of the latter line up, though for some reason I forgot Aquaman. Might be a Superfriend influence. :lol: Like most folks, when I talk about the JLA I mean the big guns, which BC really isn't imo.

Rakka wrote:
IS_Wolf wrote:
core Avenger is 6,


Ant-Man, Wasp, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk. Captain America didn't join until issue 4, IIRC.

Current 'core' members are Captain America, Thor, and Iron Man. They're the 'big three'. Past that, you have Hank Pym, Wasp, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, and Vision, which bumps you up to 8.


Well, I wasn't referring to how the team started out. I'm more talking of what is considered the defining actors within the group. The most recognizable collection of heroes.

Plus, wasn't there some official addition to their charter, which stated that they could only have 6 members active at a time, not counting the help from any reserves, when the official members were either absent or because the expertise of the reservist was needed??

Anyway my core would consist of: Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Wasp, Scarlet Witch and Vision.

Hawkeye, Wonderman, Henry Pym, Black Knight (and I rather like Dane Whitman myself), Black Panther, Sersi, Crystal, Hercules, She-hulk and a whole range of others are reservists in my book.

Rakka wrote:
IS_Wolf wrote:
Core new X-Men (when they first appeared) was 6 and later it lampooned into infinity. :)


Marvel Girl, Beast, Iceman, Angel, Cyclops. Unless you're counting Professor X, in which case it is 6, but then we may as well count Charlie as one of the Angels. :wink:

"New" X-Men was Nightcrawler, Cyclops, Thunderbird, Wolverine, Storm, Banshee. So you do have 6 there, unless you were willing to count Professor X amongst the first crew, then you have 7. :P


Well I did say the new X-men, was trying to differentiate them from the older team of MV, Beast etc.

Though considering the deaths of Thunderbird and Phoenix, I was more thinking along the lines of: Storm, Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Colossus, Sprite, and Cyclops.

With Cyc being the odd man out in what would become a close knit family enviroment, which just felt right considering the background of their storyline. People cast out from society, shunned often by their own families and who form a new one of their own.

While I can understand the militarization and the need to do so as the battles became more and more grim. I still miss the family element. It's what made the X-Men feel kinda like a second home in a way.

Anyway, tossing Cyc and putting in Rogue does tend to work better on the whole family aspect. Despite the initial tensions between Storm and Wolverine on one hand and Rogue on the other one, due to that whole Carol Danvers mess.(Or maybe because of those tensions. There's always someone in your family whom you initially dislike, though granted sometimes the dislike remains throughout the rest of your mutual lives. :P)

Rakka wrote:
IS_Wolf wrote:
Teen Titans were bigger than 6 even.


Yeah, I'm editing it a bit.

But this one always gets me.

There were four 'Original' Titans in any meaningful sense of the phrase.

The original Titans (if we're stretching it, even) were Robin, Kid Flash, and Aqualad, way back in Brave and the Bold #54. (1964)

Wonder Girl joined in their very second appearance, The Brave and the Bold #60. (1967)

And just to stop the quibbling now, Speedy didn't show up in the book until Teen Titans #4, and didn't start making regular appearances until #19. So, his first appearance was three years after the team formed. Sorry, pal, you're a bit late.


As Gwalla said. Me was bad. Should've said New Teen Titans with Robin/Nightwing, Wondergirl, Cyborg, Raven, Starfire and Kid Flash. Though replacing Kid Flash with Speedy also works, even though I quite dislike the latter. He's one of the people.. Well..

Let's just say that if I were a Titan, you'd be needing Wondergirl and Cyborg to hold me back and not rip out Speedy's throat, when he's being another pain in everyone's posterior. :lol:

Rakka wrote:
I'm actually ashamed to say this, but I managed to fill another hole in my Defenders collection.

The most shameful issues ever to hit the Defenders. The "Be A Defender For A Day". (Dollar Bill, I swear to god you're going to wind up on my "Mort" columns.)

A whole bunch of 'second-bit' characters show up in this issue to try to be a Defender for a Day.

Between the sight of Hulk and Valkyrie making rounds serving coffee, the most bumbling bad guy bust of all time, and...

...well, I'll be doing an issue spotlight on these issues soon enough. Just to share the pain.

But, there is one character who appeared on the cover which drew my eye. A certain "Leopard Lord" arrives to try to join the team. :D

Go me, huh?


Ignorance isn't a crime hun. Besides you know what they say about Great Minds thinking alike and all that. Though the idea of the Hulk serving tea and finger sandwhiches does tickle my funnybone for some reason. :)

Side note, could this bad guy be any worse than the one who attacked the Avengers on the Letterman show?? :wink:

Rakka wrote:

I think we're going to be stuck here. Reading through the issues I've had, I've seen few actual 'tactical' plans. Heck, in the issue mentioned above, it's actually mentioned 'they go into battle without a plan, and yet still manage to come out ahead.'

One of the big hits about the Defenders that, literally, anybody could be amongst its august ranks. I mean for god's sake, they had 'Lunatik' on there. They can't get choosy now. The team has excelled, at many times, as a mismatched fighting force getting together because someone realized they were about to be the last line of defense.

...hmm. That might be an idea. Madame Web leading the Defenders...

Rakka gets lost in thought for a moment.


I know hun. It's just that relying on such luck. *shakes head* It's dangerous. Sooner or later you'll run out of luck and then you'll get squashed and considering their opponents. It's all about risk and gain evaluation.

Yes, they must remain accessable so that every regular hero could join their ranks. Yet at the same time they need to gel so well together that they have a reasonable chance of winning when dealing with foes like Mephisto, D'Spayre and any weird alien invasion which gets by the FF, Avengers or X-Men. :P

I wouldn't mind Madame Web leading the Defenders btw. She could fullfill a similar role to what Professor X originally had. He finds the problem and sics his team after said problem. :)

Heck, the way I see the Defenders. This may be an odd analogy, but I see it to the Avenger comic, which had the Avengers dealing with Nebula after scientists of hers had accidentally opened some type of dimensional rift. In it, a certain Wallcrawler who was visiting got dragged along and did such a good job on raising the Avenger morale (Even Thor was cracking jokes) that Cappy offered him membership into the Avengers on the spot.

Course then the Stranger had to muck things up for the Webhead. But there was this feeling in that particular comic, that I also like or would like to see in the Defenders. There's a certain levity, yet at the same time they can coordinate their efforts in such a way, that they can defeat foes, who by all rights should squash them like bugs.

Rakka wrote:
IS_Wolf wrote:
I would love to see the interplay between Kurt and Isaac though. Something tells me that those two would take to each other like ducks to water. :)


I would, too. :D

Anyway. I think we're pretty much at fixed points on our opinions of who would react to what and who would get along with who. A bit of a debating block, as it were.

Want to just call this one even, and I'll wait for you to get into a heated debate with me on my next team? (Right now, I'm thinking Teen Titans. :D )


Even it is then milady.

Btw got some bad news for you. Looks like Wolverine will be joining the Avengers pretty soon. :P

Lot cheaper keeping an eye on this forum's comic section. Not as information heavy as the old CoH forum was, but it'll do.


Last edited by IS_Wolf on Wed May 05, 2004 6:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2004 3:16 pm 
...good god, but you know how to push some of my buttons. 8O

Congratulations, you've managed to lay out a whole slew of upcoming articles for me, just to I can browbeat my point into your head.

And trust me, you're gonna love every minute of it.

I refuse to wear leather or rubber during it, though.

Here's the posts which caught my eye:

IS_Wolf wrote:
I was thinking of the latter line up, though for some reason I forgot Aquaman. Might be a Superfriend influence. :lol: Like most folks, when I talk about the JLA I mean the big guns, which BC really isn't imo.


I assume that by 'BC' you mean Black Canary.

So, you don't consider Arthur or Dinah to be 'big guns'.

I'm gonna have such fun with you. :twisted:

IS_Wolf wrote:
Plus, wasn't there some official addition to their charter, which stated that they could only have 6 members active at a time, not counting the help from any reserves, when the official members were either absent or because the expertise of the reservist was needed??


Probably way back in the day that Henry Peter Gyrich was put in charge of 'keeping them in line'. Say what you will, I like that guy.

There's just something about a guy that can look Thor, Black Panther, and even a rampaging super-ape (yes, it really happened) in the eye, say "I'm the Government, Mister" and make them pause for a second.

IS_Wolf wrote:
Hawkeye *snip snip snip* is a reservist in my book.


:twisted:

IS_Wolf wrote:
Heck, the way I see the Defenders. This may be an odd analogy, but I see it to the Avenger comic, which had the Avengers dealing with Nebula after scientists of hers had accidentally opened some type of dimensional rift. In it, a certain Wallcrawler who was visiting got dragged along and did such a good job on raising the Avenger morale (Even Thor was cracking jokes) that Cappy offered him membership into the Avengers on the spot.


Wait until you see my "If I Ran The Avengers..." column. :wink:

....

...I think I'll do it the same week the "New Avengers Line-Up" comes out. So you guys can see how it should be done.

If Wolverine gets added, I swear to god my sword collection is coming down off the wall.

And I just bought this nice new one, too. With a blade shaped like a multi-edged lightning bolt...and it's really really sharp, too.

Rakka glances at the bandage on her wrist. Coughs a bit embarassedly.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2004 7:22 pm 
Rakka wrote:
...good god, but you know how to push some of my buttons. 8O


I aim to please. :wink:

Rakka wrote:
Congratulations, you've managed to lay out a whole slew of upcoming articles for me, just to I can browbeat my point into your head.

And trust me, you're gonna love every minute of it.


I probably will. :P

Rakka wrote:
I refuse to wear leather or rubber during it, though.


Darn. How about some nice silk. :P :lol:

Rakka wrote:
Here's the posts which caught my eye:

IS_Wolf wrote:
I was thinking of the latter line up, though for some reason I forgot Aquaman. Might be a Superfriend influence. :lol: Like most folks, when I talk about the JLA I mean the big guns, which BC really isn't imo.


I assume that by 'BC' you mean Black Canary.

So, you don't consider Arthur or Dinah to be 'big guns'.

I'm gonna have such fun with you. :twisted:


Old Style Aquaman?? Not really. From what I recall the writers back then also had some trouble including him into adventures, because his talking to fish ability really wasn't all that helpful when dealing with some weird alien race from the Outer rim of the Galaxy, hellbent on conquering the planet.

The new Aquaman is a lot more useful from what I recall. But like I said, me forgetting him must be a Superfriend or related show remnant.

As for Dinah. Ok, that sonic scream ability she had was somewhat useful, but in general she just isn't JLA material imo. Green Arrow already stretches my sense of disbelief.

Batsy, as cliche written as he is, at least can serve as the technical wizard, when not trying to figure out their enemies weak points.

What is Dinah going to do against someone like Darkseid?? Flirt with him?? :P (joke.. *makes peace offering*)

Rakka wrote:
IS_Wolf wrote:
Plus, wasn't there some official addition to their charter, which stated that they could only have 6 members active at a time, not counting the help from any reserves, when the official members were either absent or because the expertise of the reservist was needed??


Probably way back in the day that Henry Peter Gyrich was put in charge of 'keeping them in line'. Say what you will, I like that guy.

There's just something about a guy that can look Thor, Black Panther, and even a rampaging super-ape (yes, it really happened) in the eye, say "I'm the Government, Mister" and make them pause for a second.


It first cropped up during his reign, it later popped up again. That was round about the time that Rage joined them and the Webhead got designated reserve standby member. Much to Jonah's chagrin. hehe.

As for Gyrich. I'm not overly fond of folks who want to stick mutants in concentration camps and/or mentally mutilate them by stealing their powers.

It's about the closest word I can think of that covers what he was willing to do. And what he did to Storm whilst chasing Rogue.

In my evaluation of Gyrich. If he was Genoshan then he would've been a Magistrate. *shrugs* YMMV.


Rakka wrote:
IS_Wolf wrote:
Hawkeye *snip snip snip* is a reservist in my book.


:twisted:


Oh, I'm not saying he isn't useful or hasn't done any heroic things. Just that I consider him to not be up to the same standards as the others I mentioned. Must also point out that I also placed the Black Knight on the reserve list, and I actually like Dane, so it's not as if I'm playing favourites here. It's just that little extra something.. Don't even know how to put it into words. :)

Rakka wrote:
IS_Wolf wrote:
Heck, the way I see the Defenders. This may be an odd analogy, but I see it to the Avenger comic, which had the Avengers dealing with Nebula after scientists of hers had accidentally opened some type of dimensional rift. In it, a certain Wallcrawler who was visiting got dragged along and did such a good job on raising the Avenger morale (Even Thor was cracking jokes) that Cappy offered him membership into the Avengers on the spot.


Wait until you see my "If I Ran The Avengers..." column. :wink:

....

...I think I'll do it the same week the "New Avengers Line-Up" comes out. So you guys can see how it should be done.

If Wolverine gets added, I swear to god my sword collection is coming down off the wall.

And I just bought this nice new one, too. With a blade shaped like a multi-edged lightning bolt...and it's really really sharp, too.

Rakka glances at the bandage on her wrist. Coughs a bit embarassedly.


I'm looking forward to the list hun, and just so you know. While I like Logan, I don't think he's Avenger material. Not a core member anyway.
Stick him in the reserves and give him a call, when you need to track someone down or when dealing with beings like Ultron or even the Dire Wraiths. No different from giving Dr. Strange a call when dealing with events which have a mystical bent around them. *shrugs*

As for the blade you mentioned. *Ouch* Be careful when handling them. It's very easy to slip up and hurt yourself. Used to have a floret without a duelling cap hanging above my bed, somehow it had gotten loose from its wall-attachment.

Was having a bit of a tussle in a dream and i made a blocking motion with my palm. Next thing I know, I wake up and find I jabbed my hand into the floret. Got lucky it was the skinfold between the thumb and the index finger, so it healed quickly. Inch to the right and it would've been the center of my palm.

My weapon of choice is still the saber though. And yes, I do have one. and yes it's sharp enough to split a hair in two. Pretty much leave it in its scabard, not counting the occasional oiling of course.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 10:29 pm 
Rakka wrote:
I assume that by 'BC' you mean Black Canary.

So, you don't consider Arthur or Dinah to be 'big guns'.

I'm gonna have such fun with you. :twisted:


She's not really a core member though, is she? Unless you're maybe talking of the Justice League (not JLA)?

I tend to think of the core of the JLA being the "Big Three": Supes, Bats, and Wonder Woman.


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