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 Post subject: Early results are in...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:06 pm 
So far it looks like Kerry is leading.

The results are here.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:23 pm 
I don't trust exit polls as far as I can throw Canada.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:40 pm 
gwalla wrote:
I don't trust exit polls as far as I can throw Canada.


That statement is meaningless unless we also know how far you can throw Canada.

One thing is for sure, neither candidate is going to concede the election due to early results.

The people who benifit most from exit polling are the news writers. They can guestimate what stories they'll need to write for the broadcasts.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 11:38 pm 
gwalla wrote:
I don't trust exit polls as far as I can throw Canada.


I wouldn't do that. Last time someone threw Canada, it landed in France. When they threw it back, there was cheese and mimes everywhere in Quebec. ^_^

But yeah, exit polls can't be trusted.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:51 am 
Ufda: nearing midnight in the central time zone and its getting darker and darker. It's all coming down to Ohio. Kerry is leading by about 2-3% in most of the other states still in play, but if the urban districts in Ohio don't overcome the suburban districts, Bush has it in the bag.

And I'm afraid we'll all find out more than anyone wanted to know about how different the Democrats and Republicans really are.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:27 am 
Bush is leading. According to the MSNBC map, he's pretty much swamping the central and southern parts of the US.

You have no idea how discouraging it is to realize that America is 52% idiot. Benjamin Franklin would be piss drunk and mumbling into the bar right now.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 2:25 am 
TheNovak wrote:
Bush is leading. According to the MSNBC map, he's pretty much swamping the central and southern parts of the US.


Thanks for the linky.

TheNovak wrote:
You have no idea how discouraging it is to realize that America is 52% idiot.


Umm, just because someone disagrees with something you think is obvious doen't mean they're an idiot. Perhaps it simply means that they're uninformed.

TheNovak wrote:
Benjamin Franklin would be piss drunk and mumbling into the bar right now.


Actually he probably was drunk when our constituition was written. I've heard about the amount of alcohol that was consumed during that process and it was just staggering.

That explains a lot, aye?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 3:31 am 
Well, true. But he'd be an angry and bitter drunk right now, not his usual jovial self.

And I know that people who disagree with me aren't idiots, but I refuse to be a gracious loser. Besides, all my personal feelings towards Mr. Bush aside, I simply don't agree with him on anything, and it's hard to comprehend how others could share his views. I'm sure the folks on the other side of the fence feel the same way about us anti-Bushers, so hey.

One positive thing is, at least Bush'll actually WIN an election this time.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:05 am 
BBlalock wrote:
TheNovak wrote:
You have no idea how discouraging it is to realize that America is 52% idiot.


Umm, just because someone disagrees with something you think is obvious doen't mean they're an idiot. Perhaps it simply means that they're uninformed.


Or maybe they just have different views than yours. ::shrug::

I can't stand it when people will just throw the idiot card out when they disagree with someone. This goes for both sides of the fence -- many Republicans said it when Clinton was in office, and many Democrats are saying it right now. I realize that this is the political board, and flames are a-plenty, but I guess after seeing months and months of posts like this all over the internet, it was nice to see someone (kinda) sticking up for the Bush supporters.

If Kerry truly does lose, hopefully some people can muster enough courtesy to be good losers. There are some nice, intelligent Republicans out there who were good losers in the 1990s. I'm crossing my fingers to hear from more people like Barry Deustch in this Salon article.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:29 am 
Umi wrote:
BBlalock wrote:
TheNovak wrote:
You have no idea how discouraging it is to realize that America is 52% idiot.


Umm, just because someone disagrees with something you think is obvious doen't mean they're an idiot. Perhaps it simply means that they're uninformed.


Or maybe they just have different views than yours. ::shrug::

I can't stand it when people will just throw the idiot card out when they disagree with someone. This goes for both sides of the fence -- many Republicans said it when Clinton was in office, and many Democrats are saying it right now. I realize that this is the political board, and flames are a-plenty, but I guess after seeing months and months of posts like this all over the internet, it was nice to see someone (kinda) sticking up for the Bush supporters.

If Kerry truly does lose, hopefully some people can muster enough courtesy to be good losers. There are some nice, intelligent Republicans out there who were good losers in the 1990s. I'm crossing my fingers to hear from more people like Barry Deustch in this Salon article.

I always advocate good manners---at a fundamental level, a democratic political system and rational discourse cannot survive without them---but the horrors of smear politics, corrupt government and a corrupted press, a thousand Americans and a hundred thousand Iraqis dead in a unnecessary war, and the threat of permanent oligarchical rule make the phrasing very difficult. In any event, there is little likelihood of the ruling conservative clique being gracious winners, however polite traditional Republicans might be, and pretending that they are any less of a threat to the country today than they were on Monday would be dishonest.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:49 am 
I hope Bush wins.

Mostly cause everyone bitching and moaning for the past four years has irked me beyond human endurance and I just wanna piss all those people off.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:14 am 
Gerald wrote:
I hope Bush wins.

Mostly cause everyone bitching and moaning for the past four years has irked me beyond human endurance and I just wanna piss all those people off.

:roll: Very grown-up of you.

There are political systems where you don't have to listen to people complaining about the current administration, but they've become rare over the last century or so. Too much oppression, misery, and genocide in places like that.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:15 am 
Berken wrote:
Gerald wrote:
I hope Bush wins.

Mostly cause everyone bitching and moaning for the past four years has irked me beyond human endurance and I just wanna piss all those people off.

:roll: Very grown-up of you.


Hey. When in Rome.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:09 am 
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Bush wins.

No shit about it.

Look at those maps, solid red all across the Midwest and South. Bush has over 50 percent of the popular (ahead by 3 million) and is ahead in all the races currently being contested (ahead by 100 grand in Ohio, for example, and New Mexico and Iowa look like they'll go for you too Wonder why they are calling that "too close to call"?).

Congratulations, Bush fans. You've gotten what you wanted.
The only thing that could take it away from you would be legal challenges in big ticket states (such as Florida, but that would be doubtful since the margin there is 400,000).

I've noted that whichever candidate wins, that person WILL be in a world of shit: between a two-pronged budget problem, a nation divided as straight down the middle as you can get, (two Presidential races in a row where the result comes down to one state here or there, and a palmful of EV's here or there? That's pretty divided, folks.) and our international coalition hanging on Tony Blair. So...what next?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:20 am 
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Hm, interesting.

A statistical analysis of who voted where, from <a href="http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html">CNN</a>

Almost everything is split clean down the middle...notable exceptions and trends to this(but I am not a mathematician):

--Minorities vote for Kerry, especially African-Americans
--The richer the group, the more they voted for Bush. The "average American", in the 30-50k bracket, was split down the middle.
--Unions favored Kerry--no surprise there.
--Protestants went for Bush. Jews, assorted other religions, and atheists went for Kerry.
--nobody answered whether they were a white evangelical
--The more you go to church, the more you wanted Bush.
...Oh wait, that didn't sound right.
--Military veterans DO favor Bush
--People worried about the economy, taxes, or health care voted for Kerry. People voting for moral values or the war on terror voted for Bush.

There's more, but I have to go now. Entertain yourselves, everyone.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:32 am 
Gerald wrote:
Berken wrote:
Gerald wrote:
I hope Bush wins.

Mostly cause everyone bitching and moaning for the past four years has irked me beyond human endurance and I just wanna piss all those people off.

:roll: Very grown-up of you.

Hey. When in Rome.

True, there is a lot of that on the Internet. It is an interesting contrast to read a thoughtful, articulate, well-reasoned column in a journalist or scholar's blog and switch to the comment sections and read a long series of foul-mouthed troll messages from either side with about 1 in 5 writers actually putting out a insightful paragraph with no vulgarities to break up the logic. D&E definitely does better than that.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:50 am 
On the subject of things to watch out for . . .

-- More push on the Religious Right's agenda. Expect more interference with science teaching.

-- Harder times for American gays. It is likely to be open season on job and employment discrimination. This is not going to be a good time to be coming out of the closet.

-- More wars. Hard to believe it, as we have no troops to spare, but the fringies have been talking about military action against Syria, Iran, North Korea, and Cuba. No evidence yet that the radicals in the administration are going to give up any power to anyone rational.

-- A really savage financial crash. The strains Bush's bizarre economic policies have been putting on both the stock market and the money markets could reach critical any time in the next four years.

-- More terrorist attacks. We'll have more terrorists, more terrorist supporters, weaker international policing efforts, and an even greater change of a dirty bomb going off in a container in New York harbor.

-- Much dirtier politics. Per one independent blogger with better credentials then my own:

Quote:
Conan the Republican

. . . Expect some flowery unity rhetoric from President Bush both in his victory statement and inaugural address.

[However,] the objective of Boss Rove is to do unto the nation what he and Delay have done into Texas - destroy the Democratic Party and its institutions. It's obviously much more difficult to achieve this at the national level than in the conservative trending Lone Star State. But, that doesn't mean that the Bushies won't use the levers of the executive, legislative (and eventually the judicial) branches to further eviscerate Democratic constituent institutions and strengthen the power of corporate America while redistributing wealth upwards through perpetual tax cuts.

A second term will not necessarily mean that conservatism will consolidate power. Government spending,and particularly parochial pork barrel appropriations and corporate welfare will soar as Republicans continue to mimic the old Democratic lords of Congress and buy constituencies.

The K Street Project [Tom Delay's campaign to make all lobbiests Republican] will further pressure the business community to march in lock step with the GOP. The only problem here is that the concierge for K Street - Mr. DeLay may be forced to surrender power due to his ethic problems.

Say good-bye to small government conservatism. Welcome the era of big government corporatism . . .

Want to know the what happens after a Bush victory? Actually a well-known Bush ally already gave us an idea on the big screen -

"What is best in life Conan?"

"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women!"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 3:45 pm 
Berken wrote:
I always advocate good manners---at a fundamental level, a democratic political system and rational discourse cannot survive without them---but the horrors of smear politics, corrupt government and a corrupted press, a thousand Americans and a hundred thousand Iraqis dead in a unnecessary war, and the threat of permanent oligarchical rule make the phrasing very difficult. In any event, there is little likelihood of the ruling conservative clique being gracious winners, however polite traditional Republicans might be, and pretending that they are any less of a threat to the country today than they were on Monday would be dishonest.


I wasn't asking you to change your opinion, because that wouldn't be possible. :o In your not-really-flaming me, you did exhibit the level of gracious-ness that I was hoping for in other Democrats/Kerry-voters. You didn't lump them all as being redneck idiots, which is basically the type of statement that has irked me for the past year.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 3:57 pm 
But...notice the states that Bush won by the biggest margin. Texas, Alabama, Virginia, etc. And what kind of people stereotypically live in those states? Idiot rednecks!

Hence my conclusion that America has become 52% idiot.

Or maybe just 44% idiot, with the other 8% being wealthy, heartless corporate sleazes.

And I'm (kinda) joking, so don't take it personally if you're a rational human being that voted for Bush. Y'know, all three of you.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 4:16 pm 
TheNovak wrote:
But...notice the states that Bush won by the biggest margin. Texas, Alabama, Virginia, etc. And what kind of people stereotypically live in those states? Idiot rednecks!

Hence my conclusion that America has become 52% idiot.

Or maybe just 44% idiot, with the other 8% being wealthy, heartless corporate sleazes.

And I'm (kinda) joking, so don't take it personally if you're a rational human being that voted for Bush. Y'know, all three of you.


Well, my parents are two. I'm not willing to do the nationwide search for the third, though.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 4:24 pm 
Just because being a recent Alabama transplant I'm sensitive about it, I have to point this out:

The Huntsville area is VERY heavily educated and non-redneck. If you look at the results you'll see that we voted strongly for Bush. That is engineers mostly.

Of course, most of us work for the Army, NASA, or a gov't contractor, but still...

:roll:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:41 pm 
Gerald wrote:
Berken wrote:
Gerald wrote:
I hope Bush wins.

Mostly cause everyone bitching and moaning for the past four years has irked me beyond human endurance and I just wanna piss all those people off.

:roll: Very grown-up of you.


Hey. When in Rome.


You are such a bitch, dude.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:12 pm 
TheNovak wrote:
But...notice the states that Bush won by the biggest margin. Texas, Alabama, Virginia, etc. And what kind of people stereotypically live in those states? Idiot rednecks!

Hence my conclusion that America has become 52% idiot.

Or maybe just 44% idiot, with the other 8% being wealthy, heartless corporate sleazes.

The "redneck idiot" stereotype and the ethnic slurs and jokes that go along with it actually have had an influence on this election. Working class conservatives, particularly southerners, have had to put up the sneers and patronizing attitudes of "Easterners," Californians, "liberal elites," etc. all through the television era, and more so as our culture has been so thoroughly vulgarized over the last couple of decades. People bond together against common enemies.

Per people who've studied his campaign speeches, George W.'s rural Texas twang and simplistic rhetoric are an acquired skill; they get refined a little more every election cycle. He appeals to conservatives all over the country who feel they represent a "real" America, as opposed to the kind of Amercia-haters who live in Manhattan or attend big liberal universities.

Consequently, a businessman in Ohio or a factory manager in Indianapolis, either of whom might have a MBA, can feel more of a political kinship with Walker, Texas Ranger than the attorneys on Law & Order, both of them about equally conservative in their politics.

(Not to mention that snotty wheezy, unshaven, know-it-all detective on Law & Order: Criminal Intent. I'm a polymath myself and he still gets on my nerves.)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:59 pm 
TheNovak wrote:
But...notice the states that Bush won by the biggest margin. Texas, Alabama, Virginia, etc. And what kind of people stereotypically live in those states? Idiot rednecks!

Hence my conclusion that America has become 52% idiot.

Or maybe just 44% idiot, with the other 8% being wealthy, heartless corporate sleazes.

And I'm (kinda) joking, so don't take it personally if you're a rational human being that voted for Bush. Y'know, all three of you.


Eh, negative charactorizations can cut both ways.

What sort of person lives in the urban enviornments that voted for Kerry?

Undereducated slum dwellers.


The idea that every person in the rural south is a redneck or that every redneck is a Republican (My dad is from Arkansas and many of my relatives there are loyal Democrats.) is just as absurd as the phony idea that undereducated slum dwellers make up the bulk of the democratic voting base.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:58 pm 
Berken wrote:
Gerald wrote:
Berken wrote:
Gerald wrote:
I hope Bush wins.

Mostly cause everyone bitching and moaning for the past four years has irked me beyond human endurance and I just wanna piss all those people off.

:roll: Very grown-up of you.

Hey. When in Rome.

True, there is a lot of that on the Internet. It is an interesting contrast to read a thoughtful, articulate, well-reasoned column in a journalist or scholar's blog and switch to the comment sections and read a long series of foul-mouthed troll messages from either side with about 1 in 5 writers actually putting out a insightful paragraph with no vulgarities to break up the logic. D&E definitely does better than that.


I find even on here there is a bountiful quantity of dogmatic attacks/defense towards ones favor parties or targets. And after awhile not seeing an comprehension of any potential legitimacy in the opposing viewpoints. Often one party or the other are portrayed as being inhuman villains waiting to strike out at anyone and everyone.

While usually the posts here are more reasoned and thought out than most political discussions, they still tend to lack any objectivity, and, from where I sit, seem to be more of a matter of what can one find to attack their favorite targets. It is as if the opposing viewpoint can never do anything without some sinister alternative motive, and at the same time there is little if any admission to the wrong doings of those who share one's own views.

And, to me, that seems fairly childish.

And that's not just here. That tends to be the hallmark of most political dicucssions. And usually no one really understands why that's a problem.

Ideals? Most of the ideals in political dicussions are butcherings of philosophy, history, and economics, twisted around to fit as needed. There is little if any real coherent structure. Or, worst yet, you get branded in a less than flattering light. Also, while most ideals work well in the philosophy papers, practical application is a different matter.

And being pragmatic seems to be as much of a pipe-dream.

Now, in the American system I see both major parties as being the same. They go out about things in different ways, but both of them, if they could, would probably want to reprogram me to march in line with them. And I guess it's due to a healthy dosage of cynicism, but I pretty feel that no matter who is in charge things will be the same. Half the people will complain and proclaim that the Anti-Christ has come to power, the other half celebrate, etc.

So pretty much I figure no matter who is in charge, life is gonna be the same for me: miserable.

And the exactly nature of most political atmospheres and arguments and viewpoints are so horrendously bad when analyzed it's comical.

Or if I didn't laugh I'd cry.

It's such a farce.

So.

When in Rome.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 12:35 am 
BBlalock wrote:
TheNovak wrote:
But...notice the states that Bush won by the biggest margin. Texas, Alabama, Virginia, etc. And what kind of people stereotypically live in those states? Idiot rednecks!

Hence my conclusion that America has become 52% idiot.

Or maybe just 44% idiot, with the other 8% being wealthy, heartless corporate sleazes.

And I'm (kinda) joking, so don't take it personally if you're a rational human being that voted for Bush. Y'know, all three of you.


Eh, negative charactorizations can cut both ways.

What sort of person lives in the urban enviornments that voted for Kerry?

Undereducated slum dwellers.

The idea that every person in the rural south is a redneck or that every redneck is a Republican (My dad is from Arkansas and many of my relatives there are loyal Democrats.) is just as absurd as the phony idea that undereducated slum dwellers make up the bulk of the democratic voting base.

Just the evening Jon Stewart, while interviewing Chuck Schumer and having one of the more insightful conversations about the elections I've heard, stumbled into a similar fallacy. He spoke of looking at all the "red states" on the map and feeling that urban liberals like himself were on the fringes of the country, vastly outnumber.

That is a mistake both conservatives and liberals make: the geographic stretches of red and blue not only don't really represent the relative political strengths, which are better represented by the maps showing relative population, they don't vaguely represent the variety of views and cultures within the states. Even in the states that voted 90-10 or 80-20 to ban gay marriages, Kerry averaged about 45% of the vote. Likewise, in the liberal northeastern states, Bush still picked up about 40% of the vote.

Pundits tend to talk about Republican voters as if they were all rural evangelicals and suburban gun owners, and Democratic voters as if they were all wealthy eastern liberals and African-Americans. Those three groups between them only account for about a third of the actual electorate, if that. The rest of the electorate is spread all over the country, cover all age groups, and all across the economic and social spectrum.

Catch-phrases like "soccer moms" and "Joe Sixpack" don't begin to describe these people properly. The pundits don't seem to understand them, and I have a suspicion they don't talk to them much; they seem to find them too serious and boring.


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