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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:20 am 
"U.S. voters calling in to a toll-free number had reported more than 1,100 separate incidents of problems with electronic voting machines and other voting technologies by late Tuesday during the nationwide election. In more than 30 reported cases, when voters reviewed their choices before finalizing them, an electronic voting machine indicated they had voted for a different candidate... In a majority of cases where machines allegedly recorded a wrong vote, votes were taken away from Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry, or a Democratic candidate in another race, and given to Republican President George Bush or another Republican candidate, said Cindy Cohn, legal director of the Electronic Frontier Foundation... 'We're only hearing from people who caught it,' Cohn said during a press conference... 'It gives us this uneasy feeling we're seeing the tip of the iceberg.'"

http://www.infoworld.com/article/04/11/ ... tch_1.html
http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645, ... _tophead_2
http://www.whtm.com/news/stories/1104/184856.html

And these aren't the only stories. They're all over the place.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:22 am 
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Even I think that this belongs in Donkeys and Elephants, not here, but...
why am I not surprised?

So, what states were using these problem-plagued machines, again?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:59 am 
California managed to go for Kerry despite using Diebold machines.

Therefore there arn't any problems.

*BBlalock sticks his head in the sand*


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:17 am 
Let's not forget user error.
Touchscreens have never been perfect, and some people seem to think that using thier entire plam will help, I've seen it happen.

At least this time Bush actually won the election properly, last time he just wasn't kicked out like he should have been.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:18 am 
So 31 (or 32,33...35, when they say "more than 30" that means "not much more than 30") people claimed that their choice got switched.

And how many anti-Diebold machine zealots are there? How many would love nothing more than to see such problems? How many would go as far as to lie to make Diebold look bad? And how many people clicked the wrong box and only realized afterwards? I'd say 30 sounds like a nice number.

If they wanted to switch votes then showing voters the switched numbers is stupid (it can be done internally, no paper trail makes this easy), and any claims of such things to me indicate lying and makes all the complaints suspect.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:01 am 
Quote:
"The problems I, for one, worry about are the problems that are not yet evident," Felten said.

:lol: good one!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:59 pm 
Eh, I'm no anti-Diebold zeolot, but I am absolutely against any voting method which makes recounts/auditing impossible.

Either give us a voter verifiable paper trail, or open up the software *completely* source code and all so that *every* knowledgeable person has the chance to review it for possible problems.

The raw data output and the machine's internal logs should also be made publicly available after the election board certifies the election. Immediately after the election a hash of those files should be released to the public so that we can be certain that the files weren't tampered with during the official certification process.

Voting on some unknown and unauditable box is just way too scary, particularly when Diebold executives promise to help Ohio deliver it's electoral votes to Bush (or any other specific candidate).


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:57 pm 
Sounds like a number of cases of people hitting the wrong button, or limited software problems. If twenty or thirty people reported this on the same machine, the numbers might actually be significant.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:03 pm 
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Berken wrote:
Sounds like a number of cases of people hitting the wrong button, or limited software problems. If twenty or thirty people reported this on the same machine, the numbers might actually be significant.


How about <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/05/voting.problems.ap/index.html">three THOUSAND in one county</a>?

In Ohio?

Significant yet?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:20 pm 
Ishidan wrote:
Berken wrote:
Sounds like a number of cases of people hitting the wrong button, or limited software problems. If twenty or thirty people reported this on the same machine, the numbers might actually be significant.


How about <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/05/voting.problems.ap/index.html">three THOUSAND in one county</a>?

In Ohio?

Significant yet?


And that's easy enough to notice when the error is five to six times the number of registered voters, but if it was 50 extra votes in a 500 person precinct you're talking about a huge percentage error.

Hopefully there's something in place to catch glitches of this sort besides the "Hey! We got more votes than we have people!" rule of thumb.

Heh. It's a few days yet until Ohio officially certifies its count.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:21 pm 
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The problem is that it doesn't take many votes to change the outcome of an election...

_________________
Living in a state free from the burdens of privacy and democracy since 2008-06-18.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:21 pm 
Ishidan wrote:
Berken wrote:
Sounds like a number of cases of people hitting the wrong button, or limited software problems. If twenty or thirty people reported this on the same machine, the numbers might actually be significant.


How about <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/05/voting.problems.ap/index.html">three THOUSAND in one county</a>?

In Ohio?

Significant yet?

Getting there.

In other news, the military is now allowing some important equipment to be programmed in Windows. So we are all doomed anyway.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:38 pm 
gnolam wrote:


I just created a guest account for us to use to access that article.

Username:toasterx
Password: toasterx1
(They don't allow identical username-password combos.)

Enjoy!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:52 pm 
I'd like to point out that these errors are being discovered, and corrected, as they check the overall logs against the logs on individual machines. Which is how the correct number of votes was obtained, from the machines.

Granted, there are cases of operator error, either the voters or those running the polls. There are software issues, like the addition of 3000 votes, (quickly caught and corrected), and there are trust issues. The last is the most difficult obsticle to overcome, as it can only be removed once the other aspects work perfectly. Technology is like that.

How long did it take people to begin trusting thier microwaves? Or to accept digital cameras as a 'real' way to take pictures? Or GPS to actually be accurate in guiding anbything anywhere?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:06 pm 
Travellar wrote:
How long did it take people to begin trusting thier microwaves? Or to accept digital cameras as a 'real' way to take pictures? Or GPS to actually be accurate in guiding anbything anywhere?

The trick is that there is little or no threat of someone deliberately sabatoging your microwave, camera, or GPS to provide an incorrect result. The more complex a voting machine is, the easier it is to compromise. If there is computer software between you and the team counting the ballots, then an altered chip can be inserted or the software hacked. An e-ballot machine needs to be a sealed system, like a postage meter, that can be tested and accepted by all parties involved in the vote.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:11 pm 
Travellar wrote:
I'd like to point out that these errors are being discovered, and corrected, as they check the overall logs against the logs on individual machines. Which is how the correct number of votes was obtained, from the machines.


And I'm thankful that there's a way to catch random glitches. How do we catch competantly executed manipulation of the machines?

Travellar wrote:
Granted, there are cases of operator error, either the voters or those running the polls. There are software issues, like the addition of 3000 votes, (quickly caught and corrected), and there are trust issues. The last is the most difficult obsticle to overcome, as it can only be removed once the other aspects work perfectly. Technology is like that.


Glitches are one thing. Unless the whole system is publicly auditable there isn't any way to insure that trust in the system is justified.

Travellar wrote:
How long did it take people to begin trusting thier microwaves?


If our family was typical it didn't take long at all.

Travellar wrote:
Or to accept digital cameras as a 'real' way to take pictures?


The issue there is the cost/quality ratio, not the lack of trust.

In most cases you can get better results for less money from a good name-brand disposable camera when you order a photo-CD.

Travellar wrote:
Or GPS to actually be accurate in guiding anbything anywhere?


If I were taking my anbything somewhere based on GPS I'd have a set of maps and a compass with me anyway. Mostly because I'm too cheap to buy the hyper-feature-filled GPS system with built in maps. The other part is because batteries *know* when you are relying on them for something important.


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