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 Post subject: Smart? guns.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:10 am 
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http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 121604.php

Would you trust your life to 90% reliability?

A "smart" gun is going to have to work with the user's hand covered in all kinds of substances, blood, sweat, dirt, rainwater etc. What about gloves?

They'll have to work 100% of the time, exactly like a "dumb" version of the same model. They'll have to work outside of controlled range tests, in the hands of users with minimal training. Anyone who owns a gun or is going to own one should get training in gun safety! The "smart" gun funding would be better spent on gun training for the public.

Smart guns will have to "behave" just like "dumb" guns, with the exception that they won't fire in the hands of a person the gun isn't "registered" to.

And of course, there will be hacks and workarounds to make stolen smart guns work for anyone. The fix could be as simple as reprogramming it for another person or yanking the electronics and replacing them with mechanical parts.

If the technology can be made 100% "invisible" to the owner, it'll help in cases where a criminal could get your gun away from you and use it on you. (A favorite argument of the anti-gun people.) If you learn how to use one, no perp is going to get it away from you, and any perp stupid enough to try, you'll shoot. The smarter perps run when their intended victim gets hold of a gun or other defense weapon. People smarter than those don't resort to crime. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Smart? guns.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:46 pm 
bizzybody wrote:
They'll have to work 100% of the time, exactly like a "dumb" version of the same model. They'll have to work outside of controlled range tests, in the hands of users with minimal training.


"Dumb" guns do not work 100% of the time, and also manage to work (and sometimes fail spectacularly) in the hands of users with minimal training.


bizzybody wrote:
Anyone who owns a gun or is going to own one should get training in gun safety!


Agreed.

bizzybody wrote:
If the technology can be made 100% "invisible" to the owner, it'll help in cases where a criminal could get your gun away from you and use it on you. (A favorite argument of the anti-gun people.) If you learn how to use one, no perp is going to get it away from you, and any perp stupid enough to try, you'll shoot. The smarter perps run when their intended victim gets hold of a gun or other defense weapon. People smarter than those don't resort to crime. ;)


I'm lost here. Are you saying that 'perps' can distinguish between trained and untrained individuals and will refrain from attacking the former? That a 'perp' stupid enough to try will always fail? That only the mentally retarded are criminals? That this post somehow belongs here in Donkeys and Elephants instead of in High Energy Magic?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 12:35 am 
Stupid concept. Hey everybody, let's take a relatively simple mechanical device that, despite this simplicity, occasionally fails when you absolutely need it, and add an additional level of complexity! (I might add, we'll add this complexity because these things are supposedly so hard to use that we need "special training" to use them already.)

I don't want that piece of junk on my gun. I'd be afraid that it wouldn't let me fire the gun when I want to, and I don't think that it's a proper substitute for keeping the gun secure when I don't want the gun fired.


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 Post subject: Re: Smart? guns.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 11:29 am 
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bizzybody wrote:
Smart guns will have to "behave" just like "dumb" guns, with the exception that they won't fire in the hands of a person the gun isn't "registered" to.


Right. Making them COMPLETELY a range toy, and for only one person at that.

Say you want to teach your kids to shoot in a controlled manner.

You know, so they fully understand the concept of "this is a gun. If it's loaded, and you squeeze this thing here, called a trigger, a piece of metal will come flying out of the end of this tube here, called a barrel, and punch a big hole in whatever the tube is pointed at. Let's try it. I've got a melon on a post over there. Hold here. Point here. Squeeze... *BLAM* *SPLOT*. Got the basics? Liked the demonstration? Good, in a few years we'll work on how to make it work PROPERLY."

Oops...problem. Whereas before, the gun was just a "dumb" piece of metal, that would work the same for anybody, your gun is now "smart". YOU can fire it, as it is coded to you. In the hands of your kids, it just goes "clicky". As your children are minors, there's no gunsmith that will add their profiles to the gun's memory. The people who lobbied to have the chip put on think they are geniuses--after all, now, if one of their idgit kids gets their hands on a safetied gun and points it at somebody and toys with the trigger, it too will only go "clicky". However, for the responsible, trying to raise responsible kids...you're out of luck.

Kerlyssa, I think he meant for his sentence to break down like this.

Assuming the criminal himself does not have a firearm as well:
Upon finding out that the intended victim is now in possession of a firearm

The smart criminal cuts and runs. The "victim" is now capable of lethal self defense--crime doesn't pay that well.
The stupid criminal will attempt to wrest the gun from the victim. Sure, it's possible--but only if you either have very specific military training in disarming your opponent, or if the victim is a bit slow on the uptick, doesn't pull the trigger when under attack.

<i>This biometric is the foundation of Dynamic Grip Recognition. The technology measures not only the size, strength and structure of a person's hand, but also the reflexive way in which the person acts. For smart gun, the observed actions are how the person squeezes something to produce a unique and measurable pattern. Embedded sensors in the experimental gun then can read and record the size and force of the users' hand during the first second when the trigger is squeezed. </i>

Great. All of which go straight to hell if you calibrate the system punching paper at the range, then have to use the thing in a STRESS situation--like, say, defending your life. You will NOT have the same squeeze pattern. I don't know where in your article you got that 90 percent figure--but it just went out the window if you're anything but a sport shooter.

What I also want to know: how fault-tolerant is the system? It has sixteen sensors (why so many? Last I checked, that's a little over three times the number of fingers I have on a hand.). Do ALL of the sensors need to be functioning, and agreeing, for the gun to unlock? Or, could a failure in one of the sixteen sensors cause the gun to fail over to locked mode? This doesn't even mention the power source and processor.

(I'm assuming it fails to LOCKED mode because that's how a gun control person would think.)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 12:59 pm 
To quote one of my favorite bumperstickers-
"Gun control is using both hands and a laser sight."
We need smart people, not smart guns...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:21 pm 
sirgimpofbaath wrote:
To quote one of my favorite bumperstickers-
"Gun control is using both hands and a laser sight."
We need smart people, not smart guns...


Too bad the former is a futile wish.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:27 pm 
gwalla wrote:
sirgimpofbaath wrote:
To quote one of my favorite bumperstickers-
"Gun control is using both hands and a laser sight."
We need smart people, not smart guns...


Too bad the former is a futile wish.


So is the latter. ;)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:51 pm 
gwalla wrote:
sirgimpofbaath wrote:
To quote one of my favorite bumperstickers-
"Gun control is using both hands and a laser sight."
We need smart people, not smart guns...


Too bad the former is a futile wish.


Maybe with genetic engineering...
Although, one might argue the real problem isn't stupid people, but people who don't realize theyre stupid...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 7:43 am 
sun tzu wrote:
Maybe with genetic engineering...
Although, one might argue the real problem isn't stupid people, but people who don't realize theyre stupid...


So, we need YOU ARE STUPID billboards everywhere?


Cleverness could help also. "Look to your left, that's a stupid person. Look to your right, that's a stupid person. They both just looked at you."


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:34 pm 
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http://www.stupid.ch/

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 2:46 am 
I won't disagree with that web site. I don't trust myself to handle firearms, and wouldn't even if I didn't have certain... restrictions.. about them (not legal ones; it's a weird mystical thing, and I'm not sure I entirely believe it, but I'm not taking any chances about it either).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:36 pm 
Oooh are you cursed? Do tell, this is neat! :)


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