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Nightstar Services Package
http://zoo.nightstar.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18064
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Author:  Nightstar NetAdmins [ Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Nightstar Services Package

Hello Nightstarians,

We are looking to update our IRCd and Services software on the network and we're running into a bit of a question which we'd like to hear the community express more thoughts about. Currently our services package has data that is over 8 years old and has been slowly growing since then. While we would not say that we have an inordinate amount of data in the databases it is still considerable for our network.

  1. If we do a database conversion to another services package we are limited to one package (we'll call it package A). While it is indeed an equivalent replacement for what we have we would infact have all the data we had before and a few added features. There is also a time investment to verify the export and import of the data. Looking forward, the development of this package may not be best for the longevity of Nightstar.
  2. If we skip the database conversion we are not limited to the same package and are open to a few more options. However with this option we would lose all data that is in the database. To this end, if we went this route we would keep a list of people with registered channels and nicknames to verify that people are just not squatting on others' channels. The packages we will have available for us will have more features and options than if we use package A. Also it would go without saying that we would notify all channel/nickname owners before hand to make sure they are ready for the transition.

If you have any concerns, questions, or comments please post them before. (please keep on topic as all posts that are not will be removed)

Author:  Volkai [ Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nightstar Services Package

What, exactly, would be the ramifications of dumping the database? Is there anything that couldn't be remade/replaced with a modicum of effort?

Author:  Nightstar NetAdmins [ Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nightstar Services Package

When we say "dumping the database" we mean just that. Dropping it on the floor and walking away.

The major ramification of starting new or "dumping the database" is that people would have to re-register their nicknames and channels. As well as setup their access lists, channel modes, and any other settings they had before.

Author:  Volkai [ Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nightstar Services Package

Don't know anything about access lists or channel modes, so unless registering a channel is significantly harder than registering a nick, or one of those access lists or chanel modes things is really complex... go for it.

Author:  Nightstar NetAdmins [ Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nightstar Services Package

Volkai wrote:
Don't know anything about access lists or channel modes, so unless registering a channel is significantly harder than registering a nick, or one of those access lists or chanel modes things is really complex... go for it.


Harder? No. More involved. Yes, but only for the larger channels. Most people would experience less than 10 minutes to get back to where they were before the databases were dumped. Larger channels might take more time as they have access to provide back to the channel and any modes that need to be set.

Author:  AnnoDomini [ Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nightstar Services Package

Dump 'em. Just give a few days' notice before you do, if that's possible.

Author:  Attilla [ Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nightstar Services Package

I agree, a clean slate on the database would likely be better for the network, even if it means a moment of discomfort to get nicks and channels reregged.

Author:  gnolam [ Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nightstar Services Package

Nuke it from orbit.

Author:  Witty [ Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nightstar Services Package

Hmmm. Maybe you could just have something akin to a "click here from the channel/nick to prove it's still active"? That way it'd save some of the people using it headache from having to go back and re-adjust everything, especially if they were new when they set everything up.

Author:  Vorn the Unspeakable [ Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nightstar Services Package

Given a little time alone with the system I could probably pull decent amounts of the data through the IRC services interface. I'd likely do that sort of thing on request as opposed to a big fancy automated deathmachine, though.

Automatically rebuilding the service database for the nicer new system is very difficult if not impossible, which is why we describe it as dropping the old database. For this reason even "confirm!" doesn't really work.

Vorn
Services Op

Author:  macdjord [ Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nightstar Services Package

I d'know... I don't mind reestablishing the settings and access lists for my own channels, but I'm not looking forward to having all /my/ permissions in other's channels being reset. Not everyone's likely to be as on-the-ball about resetting things, or even recording what they were before they're lost.

Author:  Syloq [ Sat Jul 25, 2009 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nightstar Services Package

macdjord wrote:
I d'know... I don't mind reestablishing the settings and access lists for my own channels, but I'm not looking forward to having all /my/ permissions in other's channels being reset. Not everyone's likely to be as on-the-ball about resetting things, or even recording what they were before they're lost.


That is precisely the reason why we will give at least 2 weeks notice before the switch happens. If we were to wait until the last moment to do the switch then yes people would be upset and scrambling to get things setup properly.

Author:  Tianon [ Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nightstar Services Package

If the current database is in a standard format and has a record of the "last access time" for each nick/channel, why not just drop "old" channels/nicks, and then create a separate script that ports the whole database into the new services format, if necessary? At the very least, dropping unused nicknames and channels could help out quite a bit in making the database considerably smaller (and thus easier to transfer to a new format, if desired).

If the current database is not in a standard format, then I'd vote for nuking it (although I just barely got here, so my say doesn't really have any bearing at all -- just trying to be helpful :P).

Author:  Syloq [ Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Nightstar Services Package

Tianon wrote:
If the current database is in a standard format and has a record of the "last access time" for each nick/channel, why not just drop "old" channels/nicks, and then create a separate script that ports the whole database into the new services format, if necessary? At the very least, dropping unused nicknames and channels could help out quite a bit in making the database considerably smaller (and thus easier to transfer to a new format, if desired).


The thing is we already do this via its built in cleaning out of old channels and nicks. There are no records that are stale or stagnant.

The major issue here is that the services package we currently use is old and outdated (read: unsupported for 2+ years). Some things will not import without some severe hacking. We've made several hacks to the database alone to make it work like we want it and porting from one format to another format is a huge time sink. We're looking at making a lot of changes that not only effect Services, but the IRCd. Honestly, there are only so many of us to do this and to spend 2+ weeks tweaking it so the data imports correctly isn't exactly what I would call "time efficient." Not only would this let us start with a clean database, it would also let the channel owners clean out people on their access lists.

Author:  Tianon [ Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nightstar Services Package

Ah, ok. Makes sense :) Thanks for the detailed description :)

Author:  Rhymershouse [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nightstar Services Package

Personally we'd go with dump the database. Won't take long for us to register our channels and whatever again and there're new features and stuff. Go for it.

Author:  Tekkie [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nightstar Services Package

I vote for nuking.

Author:  Syloq [ Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Nightstar Services Package

Thank you everyone for your votes and input.

In light with your votes on this poll we will be going with Option 2 (Dumping the databases).

So this is your first notice that the databases will be dumped on, or the day before, September 12, 2009. We will be maintaining a list of all nick/channel registrations for a limited time afterwards as to deal with problems and other issues that might occur.

We will be sending out notices on the network 2 weeks before the event and another a few days before the event.

There will be plenty more than just new services on Nightstar. But we'll leave it at that for now...

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