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 Post subject: Is freedom a good thing?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:54 pm 
It's something I've been wondering about lately...I mean, in our society, it's considered pretty much of a given. Freedom is the most exalted value, give me liberty or give me death, yadda yadda yadda.
But on the other hand, we impose limitations on our freedom. Drug laws, gun laws...And some people argue that taxes are themselves a breach of their liberty.
Is there such a thing as too much freedom? I mean, we don't give children half as much freedom as we give to adults, for a simple reason: They don't have the wisdom to use it right, and when we let them do whatever they want, they end up hurting themselves and others.
Well, the problem is...That's also true about adults. "Freedom" includes the freedom to make huge mistakes.
So to what extent should people be free? Is it beter to let them do as they will, even if they end up destroying themselves? Is it better to have their lives controlled by a higher authority (and what authority?), so as to keep them safe? Or is it better to find a middle ground - and if so, which? And why?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:27 pm 
I can't see how either extreme would even be viable. A middle ground is always best. Even the libertarians ask for a middle ground: Everything's good except force and fraud. As to how much each person should have, depends on who you ask, and I guarantee we won't all agree on it. It's possible none of us will agree where the line should be.

For my two bits: Let people do whatever they want until it starts interfering with other people's actions. Again, I distinguish belief and action, here. If someone walks around naked and somebody else doesn't like that... tough. If somebody starts beating a nudist, that'd be a problem.

Obviously this would necessitate that people be able to deal with the consequences of their actions.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 2:21 pm 
gee. on a scale of 1 to 10? 1 being Anarchy, 10 being Despotism? 4 looks awfully nice. it's all a matter of control. A total lack of control will do you no good, but attempting total control is almost as bad. There is a (mostly) happy middle ground, but there's always gonna be someone who'll want to complain. and for every valid reason for complaint, there are of course, thousands who complain without the slightest clue what they are talking about.

sorrey, I think I drifted off subject... what was your question again?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:03 pm 
Well, you need to define how progression across that scale can be quantified. There are many, many types of freedom as well. A one-dimensional scale can no more represent freedom than can a single number represent a "modern" architecture.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:38 pm 
The ideal situation is one in which the government is very powerful, but crippled by political infighting. That way, if an important issue comes up, the government can respond to it, but they can't oppress the populace too effectively.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:51 pm 
well, the inneffectiveness of a liniar scale was kind of my point. Trying to debate whether freedom is a good thing or not is kinda silly. now how much, or what kinds of freedom, is a subject worthy of it's own forum, a single thread could never contain it.

(please, no new forums just to cover freedom!)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 6:48 pm 
And of course there's always the predecessor to freedom, free will. *impish grin* Hard to be free to choose if you're defined solely by prior choices, very few of which are your own, if any...

-John


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2004 12:42 am 
There is a reaon why we don't give chldren nearly as much freedom as adults: they need to be trained not to abuse their freedom. So children recieve it in small quantities to get the used to responsibility and make them functioning members of society.

It is what school is for after all.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:41 am 
DarthBaboon wrote:
There is a reaon why we don't give chldren nearly as much freedom as adults: they need to be trained not to abuse their freedom. So children recieve it in small quantities to get the used to responsibility and make them functioning members of society.

It is what school is for after all.

Well, yes...But my point is, adults too abuse their freedom. Just not as much as children.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2004 11:33 am 
well, there is always the understanding of consequences standard.

a couple of 14 year olds may not fully understand the responsibilities of child rearing, and certainly haven't got the capability to do so effectively. On the other hand, the capacity to produce children typicly begins around age 12.

of course, I've met plenty of 'grown ups' who are far more oblivious to the consequences of various actions than the average 14 year old. (things like the neccesity of going to sleep at night so you can stay awake the next day)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2004 11:02 pm 
Sleep is overrated. And you don't actually need it to stay awake the next day. That's what caffiene and will-power are for. :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2004 11:06 pm 
WILL-POWER!!!

If you're wondering why I'm always so incoherent, there ya go.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2004 11:42 pm 
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Vorpal Bunny Slipper
Vorpal Bunny Slipper

Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 2:54 am
Posts: 2707
No.

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Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, grab es tief unten im Keller ein.
Später dann graben es andere aus, und nennen dein Haus das Knochenhaus.
Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, leg auch ihre weißen Schädel hinein.
Mit Beton gießt du es aus, das Fundament vom Knochenhaus.
Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, da ist noch Platz, da paßt noch wer rein.
Hier tobte sich der Teufel aus, unten im Keller im Knochenhaus.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 11:30 am 
sun tzu wrote:
Well, yes...But my point is, adults too abuse their freedom. Just not as much as children.


If you abuse a freedom, IOW, if you choose to not accept the matching responsibility, you lose the freedom. Period.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:58 pm 
I'd prefer to find a middle ground and compromise. Then again, I also believe in using bagpipes for sonic warfare.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:14 pm 
kreely wrote:
I'd prefer to find a middle ground and compromise. Then again, I also believe in using bagpipes for sonic warfare.

Give it a try. But much as the social engineers try to convince us otherwise, life will always find you. And hold you responsible for your actions.

I find that a large enough caliber deflates bagpipes quite nicely. Say, 155mm


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