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The Nightstar Zoo • View topic - Abortion: Murder or choice?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:36 pm 
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Knight of Daisies, Tulip Slayer
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READ THIS FIRST!!!

OK, this is a unique experiment in the halls of the Zoo, something that I don't think has been tried before with any success...

The point of this thread is NOT to argue your own personal point of view.

The point of this thread is to try and get to the bottom of the whole abortion argument, and figure out if there's any meeting point somewhere that both sides would be okay with (or at least equally unhappy with).

Any attempt at flaming any participants, or trying to argue that your own point of view is the right one and the ONLY right one, will result in your post being severely mangled by an angry ogre.

You have been warned.

/***********************************************************/




There's much argument about abortion, but I don't see any actual discussion going on.

Here's how I see the problem.

The "pro-life" crowd, or the people against abortion, see abortion as murder, pure and simple. They believe that by aborting a fetus, you are terminating the life of a human being.

The "pro-choice" or people for the legalization of abortion (note: not necessarily for abortion, just for the legal availability of it) do not believe that abortion is murder, and therefore should be the woman's choice, as the fetus is a part of her body until it is born.

OK, I think I have the base arguments in place, please correct me if I'm wrong.



Now, from the pro-life side of things, I can definitely see where they're coming from. They believe that abortion is murder, and therefore, legalizing abortion would be much the same thing as legalizing homicide. I can buy into this argument, personally. There are some things that tolerance just doesn't cover, and I think offing your fellow man falls under that scope.

The pro-choicers believe that the fetus isn't properly a human until it's born (or whatever, time of becoming human vary depending on pro-choicer), that it's an organ of a woman's body. And because we own our bodies, we should be able to do what we wish with them, including removal of organs we no longer want. (or something to this effect, anyway)


Now... The pro-choicers will argue that the fetus is only a /potential/ human, and that killing it is therefore not murder. The pro-lifers will come right back and say it's a human in possibility from the moment of conception, and any attempt to alter that is murder.

This argument from the pro-lifers, I don't understand. By that same argument, we should imprison EVERYONE for at least 10 years, because everyone is a potential criminal. This is patently absurd.

So, I fail to understand this argument by the pro-lifers.



Now, the pro-choicers will often argue to the effect that a fetus is nothing but a blob of tissue, and it doesn't mean anything to have it excised as one would a skin tag in your armpit.

I don't buy this argument either. From the moment of conception (or at least the moment of discovery of pregnancy), there is an emotional attachment, whether positive or negative. You just don't get that kind of emotional attachment to the skin tags in your armpit. (At least, I hope you don't.)

Having an abortion presents both parents with a difficult time, something that they will need to deal with mentally. It is not something to be undertaken lightly. The pro-choicers tend to totally dismiss this part of the thing.


/*********************************************************/


Remember, we're not trying to argue our own personal views here, we're trying to understand the viewpoints of both sides in order to try and find a solution that works out for both sides (if possible). A consensus.

Anyway, continue on with this. I've provided enough starter material, I hope, to get the discussion flowing.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:55 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:25 pm 
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I should point out that "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are just convenient labels, no more. Everyone is pro-life AND pro-choice, it's abortion they're for or against.

And it's not even that clear either. There are some pro-choicers who are against abortion itself, but feel that it should be up to the individual to choose, therefore it should not be illegal.


Anh, your question about the soul opens up another can of worms entirely... I understand it, but it relies on the individual's belief system including the concept of a soul. There are atheists who believe that death is it, there is no afterlife, there is no ongoing "me", so the soul thing would be a non-issue for them.

Also, in many religions/belief systems, dying as a baby is not really as big a deal as people think it is. As a couple examples, in Buddhism, the baby would just reincarnate, and in Christianity (Protestant at least), the baby would go to God's side in Heaven.


If we use the capability for sapience as the guide, then the baby cannot be a full-fledged human before its brain has developed enough to support sapience. Say, the third trimester or a little earlier.



Vorn, good point there. It does seem to be the pro-lifers who play the "heartless bastard" card, and it is a rather objectionable tactic.

I can also see your point about abortion being under fewer restrictions than other medical procedures. Would it be a good idea, if abortion were to be legal, to have it subject to the same set of restrictions as other types of medical care? As far as I know, minors must have a parent/guardian's permission to have a broken bone set, or to have just about any other surgery or moderate to major medical procedure.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:37 am 
In general, Og and Ahn, I agree that if abortion is just plain wrong then an exclusion for rape and.or incest is kind of odd.

For me, I'm ok with having that exception becuase otherwise you could be forcing the mother to live with that consequence of someone else's actions for 9 months or so. Making a woman carry her rapist's baby for 9 months makes me worry a bit. But so does the idea of depriving the baby of life.

So I'm ok with having it as an option in those cases, but also think it should be a very carefully made decision whether to abort or adopt that baby. (I'm assuming that most people aren't going to want to raise the child begotten in that manner.)


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Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, grab es tief unten im Keller ein.
Später dann graben es andere aus, und nennen dein Haus das Knochenhaus.
Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, leg auch ihre weißen Schädel hinein.
Mit Beton gießt du es aus, das Fundament vom Knochenhaus.
Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, da ist noch Platz, da paßt noch wer rein.
Hier tobte sich der Teufel aus, unten im Keller im Knochenhaus.


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