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 Post subject: How was Jesus made?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:33 pm 
Nothing important, just a small question.

Did God fertilise one of Mary's eggs, or did He create an embryo from scratch (or clay) to put in her womb?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:25 pm 
"Well, you see, kiddo, when a sacred virgin and an omnipotent creator deity love each other very much..."


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 11:40 pm 
Yes.

:lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:37 am 
Snips and snails and puppy-dog tails. But pure ones.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:09 pm 
To give a serious answer:

I believe that your first guess is more the correct one. I belive that Jesus Christ was the actual/genetic/blood child of God and Mary - inheriting capabilities of both mortality and godhood. In other words, from his mother, Mary, Christ inherited the ability to die and from His father, God, he inherited the capability of immortality.


I believe that John 10:17-18 mentions an important consequence of this:

Quote:
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.


This means to me that Jesus could not be killed, but He could give up life voluntarily. It also says that He had power to take back life after giving it up.

To me this is important for two reasons. First, it allowed Him to come back from the dead. Second it allowed Him to suffer for the sins of the world, which was more than anyone could bear without dying, unless they could only die voluntarily.


Of course, these are my beliefs, and others may not share them.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:44 pm 
Wouldn't that mean God has DNA?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:29 am 
Would that constitute rape and/or adultery?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:55 am 
Mary was not married before she was pregnant and I don't know of any where stating that Jehovah was married, it was not adultery.

Where as I greatly doubt Mary was given a choice in the whole matter, and probably was not even granted anything in the way of pleasure before the pain of childbirth, it could be called rape, if you think about it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:11 am 
Mrs. Keradon wrote:
Mary was not married before she was pregnant and I don't know of any where stating that Jehovah was married, it was not adultery.

Where as I greatly doubt Mary was given a choice in the whole matter, and probably was not even granted anything in the way of pleasure before the pain of childbirth, it could be called rape, if you think about it.


Um...Is it rape if there's conception without actual sex?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:21 pm 
She wasn't married to Joseph? Or did it come after?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:00 pm 
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Vorpal Bunny Slipper
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Posts: 2707
Kit the Odd wrote:
In other words, from his mother, Mary, Christ inherited the ability to die and from His father, God, he inherited the capability of immortality.


Which chromosome is immortality on?

And where did Jesus' Y chromosome come from?

_________________
Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, grab es tief unten im Keller ein.
Später dann graben es andere aus, und nennen dein Haus das Knochenhaus.
Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, leg auch ihre weißen Schädel hinein.
Mit Beton gießt du es aus, das Fundament vom Knochenhaus.
Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, da ist noch Platz, da paßt noch wer rein.
Hier tobte sich der Teufel aus, unten im Keller im Knochenhaus.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:40 pm 
Legos.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:29 pm 
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Vorpal Bunny Slipper
Vorpal Bunny Slipper

Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 2:54 am
Posts: 2707
Animal wrote:
Legos.


Logos Legos?

_________________
Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, grab es tief unten im Keller ein.
Später dann graben es andere aus, und nennen dein Haus das Knochenhaus.
Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, leg auch ihre weißen Schädel hinein.
Mit Beton gießt du es aus, das Fundament vom Knochenhaus.
Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, da ist noch Platz, da paßt noch wer rein.
Hier tobte sich der Teufel aus, unten im Keller im Knochenhaus.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:39 am 
Mrs. Keradon wrote:
Mary was not married before she was pregnant and I don't know of any where stating that Jehovah was married, it was not adultery.

Where as I greatly doubt Mary was given a choice in the whole matter, and probably was not even granted anything in the way of pleasure before the pain of childbirth, it could be called rape, if you think about it.


Well I think she did have a choice.

Luke Chapter 1 wrote:
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.

28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among awomen.

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her bold age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.


That last line seems to indicate, to me at any rate, that Mary did have a choice and agreed to it.


-JS, I don't know the details. I'm not too worried about them either. I would have to assume that both the immortality and Y-chromosome came from whatever God provided. But how that worked I don't know.

I know the basic concept of how I was concieved, but have no desire for details.

-Anh Mihn, Mary was married to Joseph at the time of birth, but not at the time of conception.

Matthew Chapter 1 wrote:
18 ¶ Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:43 am 
Offline
Vorpal Bunny Slipper
Vorpal Bunny Slipper

Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 2:54 am
Posts: 2707
Kit the Odd wrote:
Quote:
38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.


That last line seems to indicate, to me at any rate, that Mary did have a choice and agreed to it.


It could also be taken to mean that Mary was resigned to her fate, one that she had no say in in the first place.

_________________
Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, grab es tief unten im Keller ein.
Später dann graben es andere aus, und nennen dein Haus das Knochenhaus.
Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, leg auch ihre weißen Schädel hinein.
Mit Beton gießt du es aus, das Fundament vom Knochenhaus.
Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, da ist noch Platz, da paßt noch wer rein.
Hier tobte sich der Teufel aus, unten im Keller im Knochenhaus.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:53 pm 
To be fair, God's not known for giving people a choice when he appeals to them personally.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:06 pm 
Offline
Vorpal Bunny Slipper
Vorpal Bunny Slipper

Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 2:54 am
Posts: 2707
The General wrote:
To be fair, God's not known for giving people a choice when he appeals to them personally.


Actually, that's not really "to be fair" at all.

_________________
Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, grab es tief unten im Keller ein.
Später dann graben es andere aus, und nennen dein Haus das Knochenhaus.
Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, leg auch ihre weißen Schädel hinein.
Mit Beton gießt du es aus, das Fundament vom Knochenhaus.
Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, da ist noch Platz, da paßt noch wer rein.
Hier tobte sich der Teufel aus, unten im Keller im Knochenhaus.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:46 am 
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Janitor
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Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:15 pm
Posts: 2388
Location: In the middle of the Pacific Ocean, somewhere.
Jeremiah Smith wrote:
The General wrote:
To be fair, God's not known for giving people a choice when he appeals to them personally.

Actually, that's not really "to be fair" at all.

Yup, it's "to be accurate".

Besides, this was WAY before any concept of "women's rights". Much as is still prevalent today in the middle east, a woman of her time is servant to her man, or in this case, her masculine god. Case closed, no arguments, no philosophy, no equal rights. "Accept"? Interesting way to say "was properly submissive, in accordance with gender roles of the culture".

Say, I wonder how many times somebody was "called by God", but then refused to go through with it?

Gee. I guess we'll never know, will we, since nobody ever recorded their stories. Except, of course, where said person immediately had a massive misfortune befall, and that misfortune benefited a major player.

Hell, in Modern America, Mary wouldn't even be considered a consenting adult for ordinary human to human sex.

She'd be just barely in range for Shakespeare's time.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:03 am 
Quote:
Say, I wonder how many times somebody was "called by God", but then refused to go through with it?


Well, there was this guy...God fed him to a fish (whale. Whatever.)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:06 pm 
God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son."
Abe say, "Man, you must be puttin' me on."
God say "No,"
Abe say "What!"
God say "You can do what you want Abe but,
The next time you see me comin' you better run."
Abe say "Where you want this killin' done?"
God say "Oh out on Highway 61."


Bob Dylan - Highway 61 Revisited


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:31 pm 
Offline
Vorpal Bunny Slipper
Vorpal Bunny Slipper

Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 2:54 am
Posts: 2707
sun tzu wrote:
Quote:
Say, I wonder how many times somebody was "called by God", but then refused to go through with it?


Well, there was this guy...God fed him to a fish (whale. Whatever.)


All of which goes to wonder... why didn't God just ask someone who wouldn't mind going to Nineveh?

_________________
Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, grab es tief unten im Keller ein.
Später dann graben es andere aus, und nennen dein Haus das Knochenhaus.
Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, leg auch ihre weißen Schädel hinein.
Mit Beton gießt du es aus, das Fundament vom Knochenhaus.
Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, da ist noch Platz, da paßt noch wer rein.
Hier tobte sich der Teufel aus, unten im Keller im Knochenhaus.


Top
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 1:21 pm 
Well, one could interpret this as being that pre-marital sex is not a bad thing. After all, if god does it, why can't we.

The law is the law for everyone, not just for the weak ones it can be enforced on.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 1:25 pm 
Darius Rhiannon wrote:
Well, one could interpret this as being that pre-marital sex is not a bad thing. After all, if god does it, why can't we.


I don't need any god to tell me that.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:04 pm 
Anh Minh wrote:
Would that constitute rape and/or adultery?


Bestiality. First off, humans are decidedly inferior to Deities. Second off, Jehovah, in the grand tradition of Gods everywhere, took the form of an animal (a white dove) when he impregnated Mary. Thus, it counts as bestiality both ways.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:07 pm 
Anh Minh wrote:
Would that constitute rape and/or adultery?


The moral laws of sexual interaction applied to normal instances between two human beings (or more). However, a Divine would, especially in an attempt to keep an ancient promise, be willing to exempt himself from any and all rules.

As for the other question, yes. He would have fertilized an egg. Otherwise, Jesus would not have called himself "the Son of Man."

Diviton instigation would cause an egg to result that contained the fullness of DNA of whatever it wished. It would have copied Mary's DNA to perfection, then altered it so that a male rather than a true clone was produced.

It would also have purified the process so that no harmful mutations were transferred from mother to child. Therefore, he could be "without blemish or defect."

The bigger challenge is to keep original sin from being inherited. This would disqualify any such child. To understand that, we must first understand how original sin works:

1. If your left hand steals, your right hand is also guilty. The whole of you is guilty.

2. Therefore, if you then produce a child after having stolen, then your guilt curse applicable for your natural life on Earth is just as true for your eggs/sperm as it is for your hands.

3. The guilt is on both your spirit and your flesh. Spirit begets spirit, and flesh begets flesh. When one seeks reform, the other must also be reformed or else there will be a conflict as the one that has not reformed seeks control. This usually means the flesh needs discipline more than the spirit, and rarely the other way around.

4. In a normal instance, the fallen man fertilizes the fallen woman. Everything both have ever done wrong up to and including the moment of fertilization is then inherited either in the spiritual blueprint or in the physical blueprint (DNA), with the chance for further corruption for both from that point onward (due to mutation and/or disease for the flesh, and acquisition of learned vice for the spirit and flesh)

5. Therefore, children show an uncanny ability to reflect the worst aspects of their parents, even before being old enough to have learned those aspects. But once it is a learned trait, it becomes even harder to combat in the child's life.

6. Since the Bible insists that the Law of Death was not appended to the Law of Entropy until after Adam's rebellion (since Eve could prior-to have been easily replaced), it is clear that a MAN (or man-made device) has to fertilize the egg for the sin of both parents to be inherited by the child.

7. Therefore, if a divine fertilization process is initiated, then no human male or human male invention caused the fertilization to occur. Therefore, the child is spared from inheriting the mother's dark side as well. The child can then be truly without sin, unless corrupted in life by other means.

Makes sense, but still presents us with a problem:

We cannot defeat original sin through scientific experimentation and technological development.

The pursuit of knowledge is a virtue in most world religions. But if knowledge alone cannot save, then this necessitates the grace-alone, faith-alone model that is not found in most world faiths.

This is why Buddhism has a different idea of what constitutes sin and why Islam rejects the teaching or original sin.

Basically, if you cannot subscribe to the above metaphysical mechanics, then it becomes a huge roadblock unless you can device some detour to get around having to believe in it. But then, that makes other parts harder to grasp.

Clearly, doctrines were not meant to be something we simply cater to our whims.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:02 am 
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Vorpal Bunny Slipper
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Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 2:54 am
Posts: 2707
BulldozerBegins wrote:
The bigger challenge is to keep original sin from being inherited. This would disqualify any such child. To understand that, we must first understand how original sin works:


I certainly hope you're just playing devil's advocate with arguments you've heard elsewhere because your description of the inheritance mechanism of original sin is, without a doubt, one of the dumbest freaking things I've ever heard.

_________________
Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, grab es tief unten im Keller ein.
Später dann graben es andere aus, und nennen dein Haus das Knochenhaus.
Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, leg auch ihre weißen Schädel hinein.
Mit Beton gießt du es aus, das Fundament vom Knochenhaus.
Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, da ist noch Platz, da paßt noch wer rein.
Hier tobte sich der Teufel aus, unten im Keller im Knochenhaus.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 10:40 pm 
BulldozerBegins wrote:
6. Since the Bible insists that the Law of Death was not appended to the Law of Entropy until after Adam's rebellion (since Eve could prior-to have been easily replaced), it is clear that a MAN (or man-made device) has to fertilize the egg for the sin of both parents to be inherited by the child.


It is widely held amongst Christian Churches that Mary herself was born without sin. There is a feast day, in fact, where we celebrate the Immaculate Conception.


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 Post subject: Re: How was Jesus made?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:12 pm 
I think you'd have to consult the Gospel of Mary's Ob/Gyn


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