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 Post subject: Religious war?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:58 am 
Not sure whether to put this in politics or religion... [flip coin]

Is the Iraq/US war a religious war?

I guess the fact that the US and Britain are christian countries and Iraq is islamic could be coincidental...
[url=http://military.usptgear.com/Page.asp?QID={D6B18CF7-E441-45B3-A2E0-90182421690E}&ProdID=50138&Branch=Specials&Prod=Iraqi%20Freedom%20Gear&nWebPage=Product]But this is the clincher.[/url]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:14 pm 
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Military.com wrote:
Military Advantage is a division of Monster Worldwide.


I'll reserve my judgement until I hear someone who actually has anything to do with current U.S. policy talk about it.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:18 am 
Simon Jester wrote:

I'll reserve my judgement until I hear someone who actually has anything to do with current U.S. policy talk about it.


Quote:
President George W Bush told Palestinian ministers that God had told him to invade Afghanistan and Iraq - and create a Palestinian State...


http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2005/10_october/06/bush.shtml
Hard to get more authoratative than that. Theoreticly he's in charge.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:27 pm 
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Theoretically. I have my doubts. :)

Article 1, Section 8 of the US constitution states that only Congress may declare war. The President's reasons are immaterial - it's Congress's place to decide why we're there.

I admit I'm a bit hazy. Is this a declared war? Or is it another "police action?"

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:13 am 
hmm, soldiers in a police action...kind of makes them like police...police are sometimes known as pigs...swine are an unclean animal in Islam...so muslims tend to dislike pigs?

Well, dang, there's our problem. :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:23 am 
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Wow, man. That was like playing Six Degrees of Blasphemation.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:05 pm 
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Okay, so my last argument was a bit hair-splitting. One might even say evasive. Here's the one I should've made.

From day one, the rallying cry for this war has been "protect America!" Not "kill the unbelievers," not "get the heathens out of the holy land," not even "let's save them from their folly." "Protect America," again and again and again.

If this is a holy war, then it's only so in the minds of those who wish it to be. For the rest of us - including those who approved this conflict - the purpose (no matter how misguided) is preemptive defense.

Whether that purpose is legitimate or not, well, that's a different debate.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:56 pm 
It depends what you're protecting (or trying to, at least) it from. To take an extreme example, if you're protecting it from the mere existence of Islam, it's pretty much a religious war.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:51 am 
Simon Jester wrote:
Okay, so my last argument was a bit hair-splitting. One might even say evasive. Here's the one I should've made.

From day one, the rallying cry for this war has been "protect America!" Not "kill the unbelievers," not "get the heathens out of the holy land," not even "let's save them from their folly." "Protect America," again and again and again.

If this is a holy war, then it's only so in the minds of those who wish it to be. For the rest of us - including those who approved this conflict - the purpose (no matter how misguided) is preemptive defense.

Whether that purpose is legitimate or not, well, that's a different debate.


Hey, I was just asking. I can accept the fact that it's christian countries against islamic countries is completely coincidental.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:51 am 
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Pronto wrote:
Hey, I was just asking. I can accept the fact that it's christian countries against islamic countries is completely coincidental.


I really do think it is. It's more a matter of geography than anything else. If we're fighting in the Middle East, about the only people we can fight against are Muslims and Jews. It's not because they're Muslim or Jewish that we're fighting there.

It's just like World War II - we weren't fighting the Japanese because they were (mostly) Shintoists. We were fighting Shintoists because they were Japanese.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:23 pm 
Simon Jester wrote:
Pronto wrote:
Hey, I was just asking. I can accept the fact that it's christian countries against islamic countries is completely coincidental.


I really do think it is. It's more a matter of geography than anything else. If we're fighting in the Middle East, about the only people we can fight against are Muslims and Jews. It's not because they're Muslim or Jewish that we're fighting there.

It's just like World War II - we weren't fighting the Japanese because they were (mostly) Shintoists. We were fighting Shintoists because they were Japanese.


Incidentally, I don't think there's ever been a war against Shintoism. Lucky bastards.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:30 pm 
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Heck, Shintoism didn't even have a /name/ until the West showed up.

Vorn


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 6:41 pm 
Simon Jester wrote:
O
From day one, the rallying cry for this war has been "protect America!" Not "kill the unbelievers," not "get the heathens out of the holy land," not even "let's save them from their folly." "Protect America," again and again and again.


Right! I forgot. But remind me ... protect America from... what was that?
Right, WMDs!!

One more thing, uhm, what WMDs?

Are you sure thats the reason Americans and Iraqis are dying?

(not to mention civilizied behavior being thrown out and the US legal system being re-written in accord with the hloy bible...)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:26 pm 
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Pronto wrote:
Right! I forgot. But remind me ... protect America from... what was that?
Right, WMDs!!

One more thing, uhm, what WMDs?


I wrote:
Whether that purpose is legitimate or not, well, that's a different debate.


I don't claim to know what Bush's motivation was. And yeah, he was wrong about WMDs. But that doesn't make this a religious war.

Here's the part where you accuse me of supporting the war, right?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 11:00 pm 
I see you've argued with Pronto before. :P


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:04 am 
Simon Jester wrote:

I don't claim to know what Bush's motivation was. And yeah, he was wrong about WMDs. But that doesn't make this a religious war.

Here's the part where you accuse me of supporting the war, right?


I would NEVER accuse you of such a thing. :) (Damnit. No smilie for 'tongue-in-cheek'. Ogre, fix that, would ya?)
Other than to point out that if you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem. :twisted:

And Bush? He wasn't wrong, he lied. But you're right, that doesn't make it a religious war.
When christians are killing muslims and muslims are killing christians (and muslims from competing cults) and all the reasons giving make no sense... what DO you call it?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:34 pm 
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I call it a horrible, horrible joke. Just like Vietnam, just like Korea. Were those religious wars (sorry, "police actions")? They certainly fit your criteria - unless you actually believe we were attacked in the Gulf of Tonkin, of course.

I suspect that if Bush Sr. had gone to war with the Isrealis, we'd be fighting Jews. I suspect that if India had a lot of oil and a dictator we officially Didn't Like, we'd be shooting Hindus. And I suspect that if Bush, Cheney, and the Congress (remember, it's not just the president who makes the decision) got the notion to attack Italy for god knows what reason, we'd be slugging it out with Catholics.

And spare me your slogans, Pronto. I hear enough of them from our own pundits - left and right.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 4:46 am 
Simon Jester wrote:

And spare me your slogans, Pronto. I hear enough of them from our own pundits - left and right.


If I can't use slogans... well, I guess you win. I bow before your superior logic skills. :P


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:21 pm 
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Pronto wrote:
Simon Jester wrote:

And spare me your slogans, Pronto. I hear enough of them from our own pundits - left and right.


If I can't use slogans... well, I guess you win. I bow before your superior logic skills. :P


If you can't say anything without resorting to slogans, then you have nothing new to say.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:34 pm 
Pronto wrote:
Theoreticly he's in charge.


I originally read that as "theocratically he's in charge," which amused me.

Though there are probably some Islamic and Christian radicals that see the Iraqi war as a religious war, most other people do not. Some may have religious motivations for pursuing war, but others have only secular reasons. How rational or irrational those reasons are is a different issue.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:58 pm 
jokermage wrote:
Pronto wrote:
Theoreticly he's in charge.


I originally read that as "theocratically he's in charge," which amused me.

Thats precisely why I phrased it like that. :) Glad ya caught it.

jokermage wrote:
Though there are probably some Islamic and Christian radicals that see the Iraqi war as a religious war, most other people do not. Some may have religious motivations for pursuing war, but others have only secular reasons. How rational or irrational those reasons are is a different issue.

Again, precisely my point.

Until someone goes to the trouble of defining, at least in their own mind, what a 'religious war' is and how it differs from any other kind of war any attempt to deny it is just noise.
Even the Crusades had a fair amount of territory and treasure lifting going on.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:48 am 
I do not see it as religious war because religion hasn't been the primary propaganda selling point. Most people believe that it is either about freeing Iraqis, freeing Iraq's oil, fighting terrorists or becoming a popular war president. As far as I know, only fundamentalists groups on either side see it primarily as a religious war.

Quote:
Until someone goes to the trouble of defining, at least in their own mind, what a 'religious war' is and how it differs from any other kind of war any attempt to deny it is just noise.
Even the Crusades had a fair amount of territory and treasure lifting going on.


Wrong. Any attempts to assert that it is a religious war is just noise. You are making the claim that it is, therefore the burden is on you to define "religious war" in a meaningful way and then to demonstrate that the Iraqi war meets this definition.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:46 am 
jokermage wrote:
Wrong. Any attempts to assert that it is a religious war is just noise. You are making the claim that it is, therefore the burden is on you to define "religious war" in a meaningful way and then to demonstrate that the Iraqi war meets this definition.


I'm claiming that? Thats news to me. I only raised the question. And judging by the answers I'd say there's some nervousness about the question. Why is that?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:34 pm 
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By saying "this is the clincher" in the first post, you did indeed claim that.

Vorn


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:28 pm 
Vorn the Unspeakable wrote:
By saying "this is the clincher" in the first post, you did indeed claim that.

Vorn


Bull-doo. You obviously didn't look at the picture.
Well, maybe you did. If I recall correctly, you never did have much of an understanding of humor.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:46 pm 
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Pronto wrote:
jokermage wrote:
Wrong. Any attempts to assert that it is a religious war is just noise. You are making the claim that it is, therefore the burden is on you to define "religious war" in a meaningful way and then to demonstrate that the Iraqi war meets this definition.


I'm claiming that? Thats news to me. I only raised the question. And judging by the answers I'd say there's some nervousness about the question. Why is that?


Okay, forget "religious war." I'm more interested in Pronto's definition of "nervousness."

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:45 pm 
Simon Jester wrote:

Okay, forget "religious war." I'm more interested in Pronto's definition of "nervousness."


I'm really hesitant to respond to that, Simon. I'm 'nervous' that anything I say will be labeled a 'slogan'.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 1:44 am 
Why this is a pissing contest worthy of D&E.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:57 am 
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*chuckle* Yeah, this whole discussion has gotten pretty asinine. Shall we let it rest?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:58 am 
Simon Jester wrote:
*chuckle* Yeah, this whole discussion has gotten pretty asinine. Shall we let it rest?


I don't think you need anyones permission to not post. If you don't feel you have anything to contribute, just ... don't.


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