The Nightstar Zoo

Nightstar IRC Network - irc.nightstar.net
It is currently Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:29 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:08 pm 
Offline
Knight of Daisies, Tulip Slayer
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 11, 2002 3:03 am
Posts: 1621
Location: Sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
  1. You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
  2. You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
  3. You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
  4. Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!
  5. You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
  6. You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.
  7. You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."
  8. While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.
  9. You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.
  10. You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

_________________
Fandemonium 2010 -- No Boundaries.
http://www.fandemonium.org
Friday - Sunday, August 6th - 8th, 2010
Nampa Civic Center - Nampa, Idaho (Only 20 minutes from the airport!)
(Idaho: It ain't just potatoes anymore.)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:54 am 
Offline
Concession Worker
Concession Worker
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2003 5:26 pm
Posts: 1479
Location: R'lyeh
Fundies Say the Darndest Things!

_________________
Living in a state free from the burdens of privacy and democracy since 2008-06-18.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:15 pm 
Thanks, Ogre. I copied and posted this on another forum and, man, that was fun. Major pee fight. :)
I've even found a replacement for Jerm as a stalking horse.


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:00 am 
Offline
Monkey House Exhibit
Monkey House Exhibit

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:16 pm
Posts: 510
Location: Cape Town
Ogredude wrote:
  1. You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.


Quick question for you - which religion actually believes in thousands of gods? (I know the answer, I wonder if you do?)
Anyway, Christians deny the existance of all those "gods" because the Bible (which we hold as infallible) teaches that they do not exist. We believe in our God, and when He tells us "no one else like Me up here" we take His word for it.
Atheists, otoh, just disbelieve because they disbelieve.

Quote:
  • You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.



  • Dirt and the "breath of life" from God. I think the important point here is that the evolution theories implicity deny that people have souls.
    (The two ideas, being descended from animals, and being unlike those animals in having an immortal soul, are not in fact logically contradictory at all - proving either true wouldn't prove the other false, but many people think they are contradictory)
    Quote:
  • You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.



  • Not the same thing. And (again probably unlike you) I have actually met, and discussed religious matters with, real live polytheists, and I can honestly say I've never laughed at them for it.

    Quote:
  • Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!




  • "atrocities attributed to Allah"?
    When has 'Allah' ever done anything? Anything at all? The Koran does contain open-ended commands for muslims to kill anyone not a believer in their religion, but that is all 100% human beings doing it. Did 'Allah' ever help directly by, say, making the walls of a besieged city fall down, or dropping meteors on the enemy army? Nope!

    As for the stuff in Joshua - warfare back in the 14th century BC was hardly ruled by the Geneva Conventions. Its unfair to judge it by modern standards. Those other tribes would have done the same back.
    (Think of World War 2, and the firebombing of the city of Dresden. Horrible? But remember that the Nazis had done the same to Birmingham, and were carpet-bombing London flat out.)

    Quote:
  • You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.



  • your fictional fundamentalist seems to be relying heavily on the "argument from ridicule". But since he's a creature of your own mind, perhaps that's no surprise.
    Pretending not to understand the difference between Christian belief in God (the Creator of all things) and ancient Greek belief in their various "gods" is a standard Atheist tactic.

    Quote:
  • You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.


  • The scientifically "established" age of the Earth changes every so often, did you know that? In the early 20th century it was 2.3 billion years, then they doubled it to 4.6 billion. And lets not get started here about all the variations of the Big Bang theories.

    And nowhere does the Bible itself set a date for creation.

    Quote:
  • You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."



  • "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whomsover believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

    Quote:
  • While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.



  • How about if that "idiot" is YOU, and you hadn't gone to that meeting intending to do anything of the sort? (I've seen this happen to people)

    As for "modern science" somehow being an argument against Christianity, that is typical atheist rhetoric. It crumbles as soon as you press for specifics.

    Quote:
  • You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.



  • All you'd need to ONE case of something happening that definately would not have happened if you hadn't prayed.
    In any case, God is not a coin-in-the-slot machine.

    Quote:
  • You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.


  • Plenty of Christians who don't read the Bible as much as they should - and also plenty of atheists who seem to read the Bible rather more than one would expect. But that doesn't invalidate each person's claim as to what they believe.


    Top
     Profile  
     
    PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:02 pm 
    Wow, we got us a live one!
    Sorry, FrankNorman, but I'm about to get a little rude here.

    FrankNorman wrote:
    Quick question for you - which religion actually believes in thousands of gods? (I know the answer, I wonder if you do?)
    I dunno. Shinto has 8 million and Hindu, if I recall, has 500 million. Most of the Western religions have only a few hundred gods.
    Quote:
    Anyway, Christians deny the existance of all those "gods" because the Bible (which we hold as infallible) teaches that they do not exist. We believe in our God, and when He tells us "no one else like Me up here" we take His word for it.

    This is exactly the point the original post is making. You assume that your holy book is somehow more accurate than all the others, apparently just because you've been told to.

    Quote:
    Dirt and the "breath of life" from God. I think the important point here is that the evolution theories implicity deny that people have souls.
    (The two ideas, being descended from animals, and being unlike those animals in having an immortal soul, are not in fact logically contradictory at all - proving either true wouldn't prove the other false, but many people think they are contradictory)
    I've never heard any evolutionist mention souls. It has no bearing on the theory one way or another.

    Quote:
    Quote:
    [*] You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
    Not the same thing.
    You're right. Unlike polytheism, the Trinity is logically inconsistent- it claims the impossible, that God has exactly one and at the same time more than one identity.

    Quote:
    "atrocities attributed to Allah"?
    When has 'Allah' ever done anything? Anything at all? The Koran does contain open-ended commands for muslims to kill anyone not a believer in their religion, but that is all 100% human beings doing it. Did 'Allah' ever help directly by, say, making the walls of a besieged city fall down, or dropping meteors on the enemy army? Nope!

    As for the stuff in Joshua - warfare back in the 14th century BC was hardly ruled by the Geneva Conventions. Its unfair to judge it by modern standards. Those other tribes would have done the same back.
    (Think of World War 2, and the firebombing of the city of Dresden. Horrible? But remember that the Nazis had done the same to Birmingham, and were carpet-bombing London flat out.)
    I agree with you here. Ancient extremists and modern ones are alike in their lack or respect for life. However, few Christians condemn the acts of their predecessors based on their different outlook.

    Quote:
    your fictional fundamentalist seems to be relying heavily on the "argument from ridicule". But since he's a creature of your own mind, perhaps that's no surprise.
    Pretending not to understand the difference between Christian belief in God (the Creator of all things) and ancient Greek belief in their various "gods" is a standard Atheist tactic.

    What is the difference?

    Quote:
    The scientifically "established" age of the Earth changes every so often, did you know that? In the early 20th century it was 2.3 billion years, then they doubled it to 4.6 billion. And lets not get started here about all the variations of the Big Bang theories.

    And nowhere does the Bible itself set a date for creation.
    Yeah. But many Christians still believe the earth is only a few thousand years old, which is wrong by any modern empirical standard. The early scholars estimated the age of the world based on the best information they had. That information has now greatly improved, allowing increasingly accurate estimates, but many steadfastly hold to the old figures out of tradition, completely invalidating the point of trying to calculate it in the first place.

    Quote:
    "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whomsover believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
    Meanwhile, the other 5.5 billion are screwed? That's a very loving guy.

    Quote:
    As for "modern science" somehow being an argument against Christianity, that is typical atheist rhetoric. It crumbles as soon as you press for specifics.
    Such as?

    Quote:
    All you'd need to ONE case of something happening that definately would not have happened if you hadn't prayed.
    And no such known case exists.

    Quote:
    Plenty of Christians who don't read the Bible as much as they should - and also plenty of atheists who seem to read the Bible rather more than one would expect. But that doesn't invalidate each person's claim as to what they believe.
    Yeah.


    Top
      
     
     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:10 pm 
    Offline
    Vorpal Bunny Slipper
    Vorpal Bunny Slipper

    Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 2:54 am
    Posts: 2707
    Finally, some action in this forum! Hot damn.

    FrankNorman wrote:
    Quick question for you - which religion actually believes in thousands of gods? (I know the answer, I wonder if you do?)


    Does this even matter? There wouldn't need to be one religion with thousands of gods; a thousand other religions with one god each would still suffice for his point. Polytheistic religions can have up to dozens of gods. And if you count various denominations of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and all the other religions, you can come up with a lot more gods, which are the same in name but not the same in theological details. The point of that comment is that there are thousands of other god concepts that exist and have existed and both Christians and atheists deny a vast majority of them. (I said god concept, not god, mind you.)

    Quote:
    Anyway, Christians deny the existance of all those "gods" because the Bible (which we hold as infallible) teaches that they do not exist. We believe in our God, and when He tells us "no one else like Me up here" we take His word for it.


    As The General pointed out, most other monotheistic religions have the same tenet. What makes your Holy Book special?

    Quote:
    Atheists, otoh, just disbelieve because they disbelieve.


    Yeah, that's it. Do you really have any idea why atheists don't believe in God, or do you prefer to think of us all as "just stubborn folks who disbelieve because they want to"?

    Quote:
    Dirt and the "breath of life" from God.


    What, precisely, is the "breath of life"? There's no special magic that makes living things alive. Is the breath of life adenosine triphosphate, maybe?

    Quote:
    I think the important point here is that the evolution theories implicity deny that people have souls.


    Lots of theists reconcile souls and evolution just fine. I don't agree with them, not being a theist, but the point remains that a lot of people think you're wrong. What's so bad about not having a soul, anyway? (And how do you know we have one? How would you know if you had a soul or not? Do you know what it's like to not have one?)

    Quote:
    Not the same thing.


    Only because of semantic manipulation and a big dose of poor logic. The Father is equal to the Son is equal to the Spirit, but they're also all different, and they're all equal to the whole. Is that about right? Did I miss something? I know I missed the part where it made any coherent sense, perhaps you can fill us in on that.

    Quote:
    Pretending not to understand the difference between Christian belief in God (the Creator of all things) and ancient Greek belief in their various "gods" is a standard Atheist tactic.


    And pretending there is a difference is a standard Christian tactic.

    Quote:
    The scientifically "established" age of the Earth changes every so often, did you know that? In the early 20th century it was 2.3 billion years, then they doubled it to 4.6 billion.


    How was the age of 2.3 billion years determined, and by who, and why was it later rejected with the advent of better dating techniques? Do you know any of those answers? And you seem to have forgotten that dating techniques improve as new things are discovered and invented. Surely this couldn't have anything to do with the discovery of radioactive decay and the discovery that it could be used as a dating technique? Lord Kelvin estimated the earth's age at a few hundred million years, based on a study of the Earth's internal temperature, because he didn't know about radioactive decay and based his argument on other heat sources. Later scientists who did know about radiation found that his results were incorrect because they did not incorporate heat from radiation, and so corrected him.

    Why is it that some people consider it a bad thing that science corrects itself as new evidence comes in?

    Quote:
    And lets not get started here about all the variations of the Big Bang theories.


    What variations are you talking about, and why would the existence of competing hypotheses about details of the Big Bang negate everything known about Big Bang cosmology as a whole? Most of the variations still agree on basic points, like the age of the universe, that the observable universe was once very small and dense, and that the universe has expanded.

    Quote:
    "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whomsover believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."


    Hahaha.

    1) If God so loves the world, why does he still send those who don't believe in him to Hell? What's wrong with a system of do-overs, like reincarnation, or a temporary purgatory instead of eternal Hell? Indeed, why bother with the whole mess at all? Punishing children for a misdeed is one thing, but punishment is behavior modification to prevent future bad behavior. There is no second chance after Hell; how can it be punishment? Even if you spent twenty years in hell and changed your ways for good, you'd have no way of showing it. How can a finite sin by a limited being against an infinite unlimited being require an eternal unending torment? It's the ultimate hubris to assert that the finite misdeeds of a temporary life are noticed at all by an ultra powerful creator of the universe. "I'm so special that the creator of the universe is hurt deeply when I think about girls and touch myself!"

    2) Why would an omnipotent deity need to "give his only son" to do anything? Oh, right, I forgot, omnipotence is just a religious plot device. Is there any logically coherent reason why God had to sacrifice anyone to change his own mind about the rules of Hell? Is there some Organization of Deities that has bylaws about sacrifices being necessary to atone for sin? Does God just have weird whims? Is there any reason why God didn't get his mind right the first time around? Why not send Jesus as soon as Adam and Eve chomped on that fruit and nip the mess in the bud?

    Right, right, "God works in mysterious ways", "his thoughts are not our thoughts", and all the other stock phrases meaning essentially "look, we didn't think about the ramifications of an unlimited all-powerful all-knowing deity before we started believing in one, cut us some slack".

    3) What's the big deal about sending his only son, anyway? Jesus sacrificed nothing. He died on the cross, but he spent a few hours being tortured: some crucifixion victims hung for days. Then he's dead for three days -- where he spends these three days is unclear; some verses say he went to Hell, but he tells the thief in Luke that that day they will be together in Paradise. If he spends it in Hell, there's still people who died and spent longer than three days in Hell. Then Jesus comes back to life, returns in glory, gets worshipped for millennia, and will eventually rule the universe. And he went to the cross knowing all this. How is it a sacrifice if you know with perfect knowledge that you'll get back everything you lost, and then get so much more besides? It sounds like a two-man con, to me. "Believe in me, I'm suffering!" "I love you, and to prove it, my son is suffering! Love me back!" Then they run off to heaven and rule the universe while people love and believe in them.

    4) Why does a transcendent superbeing just happen to have human emotions? Human emotions are social behaviors -- the social behaviors of limited beings who we can't control and whose thoughts we can't know, to be precise. Does God socialize with other deities? Does God have any reason to experience love, or are theists just projecting?

    Quote:
    How about if that "idiot" is YOU, and you hadn't gone to that meeting intending to do anything of the sort? (I've seen this happen to people)


    I've seen it too. It was freaky at the time but in retrospect it's nothing special. People get caught up in religious fervor. Or possibly a lot of people need CAT scans. People doing weird things in religious contexts is nothing new.

    Quote:
    As for "modern science" somehow being an argument against Christianity, that is typical atheist rhetoric. It crumbles as soon as you press for specifics.


    So press for specifics and we'll see. Just out of curiosity, what sort of arguments are you thinking of in this case? Could you give some examples?

    Quote:
    All you'd need to ONE case of something happening that definately would not have happened if you hadn't prayed.


    Would you mind explaining how one would do this? Do you have any such cases?

    Quote:
    In any case, God is not a coin-in-the-slot machine.


    If you pray for something and it happens, it was God.
    It you pray for something and it doesn't happen, God is not a slot machine.
    Looks like you've got your bases covered! Just like psychics!
    If a psychic predicts something and it happens, it was their psychic powers.
    If a psychic predicts something and it doesn't happen, well, their powers don't work all the time.
    I bet I could found a religion based on the same unfalsifiable idea.
    If you pray to me for something and it happens, it was me.
    If you pray to me for something and it doesn't happen, I'm not a slot machine.
    I wonder if I can get any followers this way.

    _________________
    Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, grab es tief unten im Keller ein.
    Später dann graben es andere aus, und nennen dein Haus das Knochenhaus.
    Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, leg auch ihre weißen Schädel hinein.
    Mit Beton gießt du es aus, das Fundament vom Knochenhaus.
    Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, da ist noch Platz, da paßt noch wer rein.
    Hier tobte sich der Teufel aus, unten im Keller im Knochenhaus.


    Top
     Profile  
     
     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:23 pm 
    Quote:
    If you pray to me for something and it happens, it was me.
    If you pray to me for something and it doesn't happen, I'm not a slot machine.
    I wonder if I can get any followers this way.


    The Church of Joe Pesci was founded on this principle. Except it has a higher success rate for prayer, because "Joe Pesci looks like a guy who can get things done."


    Top
      
     
     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:13 am 
    Hmmm...The Bible. What an interesting thought. The Word of God as written by Man (where's woman when you need her?). I once heard that Man is not perfect. As such, how could something vreated by man be perfect?

    But hey, Praise be to Jerry Falwell!

    http://blog.au.org/2006/12/falwells_flub_j.html

    And a quote for the moment...


    "The people who make themselves rich in the name of God or Allah are fair game, as are the people who pretend to speak for Krishna or Y*HW*H -- usually to their own advantage. YOU may say that God said, 'touch not the apple of mine eye' -- but until God sends us the memo, you're fair game, bud."

    Robert Darden, editor in chief of the religious satire magazine the Wittenburg Door


    Top
      
     
     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:29 am 
    Offline
    Janitor
    Janitor
    User avatar

    Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:15 pm
    Posts: 2388
    Location: In the middle of the Pacific Ocean, somewhere.
    Jeremiah Smith wrote:
    It's the ultimate hubris to assert that the finite misdeeds of a temporary life are noticed at all by an ultra powerful creator of the universe. "I'm so special that the creator of the universe is hurt deeply when I think about girls and touch myself!"


    Wanna really piss off the religious types, keep going.

    "And never mind the fact that he created girls, created horniness, and gave me arms just the right length...but it's all my fault I jerk it, can't possibly be yet another setup by God!"

    Then there's speaking in tongues.

    Speaking in TONGUES is speaking in such a way that everybody can understand exactly what you said, as if you said it in their own native language. Go on, look it up. Sure, it gets a lot easier if the entire crowd speaks only English and Bad English, but most 'speaking in tongues' people can't even do that once they get going.

    Rolling your eyes and chanting nonsense that is not coherent sentences in any known language is not speaking in tongues. It's gibbering. A person who is doing it is not becoming the channel for a religious miracle, he's having a seizure. Or an orgasm. Considering how much fundies want to insist that sex is evil, I doubt they'd know the difference.


    Top
     Profile  
     
     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:41 am 
    Offline
    Vorpal Bunny Slipper
    Vorpal Bunny Slipper

    Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 2:54 am
    Posts: 2707
    Ishidan wrote:
    Wanna really piss off the religious types, keep going.

    "And never mind the fact that he created girls, created horniness, and gave me arms just the right length...but it's all my fault I jerk it, can't possibly be yet another setup by God!"


    Everything necessarily has to end up back in God's lap. In the eyes of theists, though, free will is like some magical wand that will solve any atheist's question about God's behavior. Free will is apparently like kryptonite to God. It really is funny when you think about it. God is the all-powerful creator of the universe, according to these people. He can summon a universe into existence from nothing. He is transcendent, beyond space and time and yet occupying them both at all points. He knows the behavior of every particle at every second throughout the entire history of existence. He has a plan, carefully designed by his all-knowing mind to execute and glorify his divine will. And yet, somehow, the will of this divine being can be thwarted by a minute and temporary species of carbon-based life that can't even make a taco ex nihilo and, far from being all-knowing, have been known to forget the name of the sitcom they just finished watching five minutes ago.

    _________________
    Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, grab es tief unten im Keller ein.
    Später dann graben es andere aus, und nennen dein Haus das Knochenhaus.
    Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, leg auch ihre weißen Schädel hinein.
    Mit Beton gießt du es aus, das Fundament vom Knochenhaus.
    Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, da ist noch Platz, da paßt noch wer rein.
    Hier tobte sich der Teufel aus, unten im Keller im Knochenhaus.


    Top
     Profile  
     
     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:22 pm 
    I think you scared him off, Jerm. Come join me in this forum... it will be no suprise to you that I've found a replacement for all of this.

    http://forums.achaea.com/index.php?showtopic=21424

    I use a different nick on there, see if you can guess which. :)


    Top
      
     
     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:14 pm 
    Offline
    Intern
    Intern
    User avatar

    Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 4:13 pm
    Posts: 1137
    Location: Ground floor, first room on the right.
    It's a Pronto! 8O

    ((And thus my annual visit is made. Off-topic, as well. :wink: ))

    EDIT: Great thread. Gave me more than a few chuckles and perhaps some pointers on how to counter RHJunior next time he stirrs up a flamewar over at #DnD.

    _________________
    It's the real me, I swear!


    Top
     Profile  
     
     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:37 pm 
    Offline
    Vorpal Bunny Slipper
    Vorpal Bunny Slipper

    Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 2:54 am
    Posts: 2707
    Pronto wrote:
    I think you scared him off, Jerm. Come join me in this forum... it will be no suprise to you that I've found a replacement for all of this.

    http://forums.achaea.com/index.php?showtopic=21424

    I use a different nick on there, see if you can guess which. :)


    I can't tell. :( I only read the first eight pages or so though.

    AnnoDomini wrote:
    It's a Pronto! 8O

    ((And thus my annual visit is made. Off-topic, as well. :wink: ))

    EDIT: Great thread. Gave me more than a few chuckles and perhaps some pointers on how to counter RHJunior next time he stirrs up a flamewar over at #DnD.


    Bring him over here, this forum needs some life.

    I promise not to make too many insanely huge posts. :)

    _________________
    Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, grab es tief unten im Keller ein.
    Später dann graben es andere aus, und nennen dein Haus das Knochenhaus.
    Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, leg auch ihre weißen Schädel hinein.
    Mit Beton gießt du es aus, das Fundament vom Knochenhaus.
    Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, da ist noch Platz, da paßt noch wer rein.
    Hier tobte sich der Teufel aus, unten im Keller im Knochenhaus.


    Last edited by Jeremiah Smith on Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

    Top
     Profile  
     
    PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:26 pm 
    Offline
    Vorpal Bunny Slipper
    Vorpal Bunny Slipper

    Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 2:54 am
    Posts: 2707
    Over the years, I have compiled a list of verses from the Bible where God does not care about free will. Most of the verses are of the following categories:

    - God unduly influencing the mind (i.e. heart) of a person. Most of the Old Testament verses are like this, with a lot of verses from Exodus when God hardens Pharaoh's heart so he won't let the people go.

    - Statements that salvation occurs at God's whim, or statements that certain people are being prevented from knowing salvation by God's whim. Most of the ones from the New Testament are this category. If salvation occurs solely according to God's will, humanity's free will must necessarily be taking a back seat.

    - Statements of God's foreknowledge and predestination, both of which negate human free will: if God already knows what you'll do, you have no other alternative than to do it.

    Here we go! It's a long one.

    Exodus 4:20-23, NIV wrote:
    21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. 22 Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.' "


    Exodus 7:1-5, NIV wrote:
    1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. 5 And the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it."


    Exodus 9:8-12, NIV wrote:
    8 Then the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Take handfuls of soot from a furnace and have Moses toss it into the air in the presence of Pharaoh. 9 It will become fine dust over the whole land of Egypt, and festering boils will break out on men and animals throughout the land." 10 So they took soot from a furnace and stood before Pharaoh. Moses tossed it into the air, and festering boils broke out on men and animals. 11 The magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils that were on them and on all the Egyptians. 12 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.


    Exodus 10:1-2, NIV wrote:
    1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD."


    Exodus 10:18-20, NIV wrote:
    18 Moses then left Pharaoh and prayed to the LORD . 19 And the LORD changed the wind to a very strong west wind, which caught up the locusts and carried them into the Red Sea. Not a locust was left anywhere in Egypt. 20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.


    Exodus 10:27-28, NIV wrote:
    27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go. 28 Pharaoh said to Moses, "Get out of my sight! Make sure you do not appear before me again! The day you see my face you will die."


    Exodus 11:9-10, NIV wrote:
    9 The LORD had said to Moses, "Pharaoh will refuse to listen to you-so that my wonders may be multiplied in Egypt." 10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.


    Exodus 14:5-8, NIV wrote:
    5 When the king of Egypt was told that the people had fled, Pharaoh and his officials changed their minds about them and said, "What have we done? We have let the Israelites go and have lost their services!" 6 So he had his chariot made ready and took his army with him. 7 He took six hundred of the best chariots, along with all the other chariots of Egypt, with officers over all of them. 8 The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly.


    Exodus 14:15-18, NIV wrote:
    15 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Why are you crying out to me? Tell the Israelites to move on. 16 Raise your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea to divide the water so that the Israelites can go through the sea on dry ground. 17 I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them. And I will gain glory through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen. 18 The Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I gain glory through Pharaoh, his chariots and his horsemen."


    Deuteronomy 2:30, NIV wrote:
    30 But Sihon king of Heshbon refused to let us pass through. For the LORD your God had made his spirit stubborn and his heart obstinate in order to give him into your hands, as he has now done.


    Joshua 11:18-20, NIV wrote:
    18 Joshua waged war against all these kings for a long time. 19 Except for the Hivites living in Gibeon, not one city made a treaty of peace with the Israelites, who took them all in battle. 20 For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses.


    Proverbs 21:1, NIV wrote:
    The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.


    Isaiah 6:8-10, NIV wrote:
    8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" 9 He said, "Go and tell this people: "'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.' 10 Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."


    Isaiah 63:17, NIV wrote:
    17 Why, O LORD, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you? Return for the sake of your servants, the tribes that are your inheritance.


    Ezekiel 36:26-27, NIV wrote:
    26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.


    Daniel 3:8-10, NIV wrote:
    8 But Daniel resolved not to defile himself with the royal food and wine, and he asked the chief official for permission not to defile himself this way. 9 Now God had caused the official to show favor and sympathy to Daniel, 10 but the official told Daniel, "I am afraid of my lord the king, who has assigned your food and drink. Why should he see you looking worse than the other young men your age? The king would then have my head because of you."


    Matthew 13:10-15, NIV wrote:
    10 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" 11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'"


    John 6:35-44, NIV wrote:
    35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." 41 At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42 They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?" 43 "Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.


    John 12:37-40, NIV wrote:
    37 Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: "Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" 39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn — and I would heal them."


    John 17:6-9, NIV wrote:
    6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.


    Romans 8:29-30, NIV wrote:
    29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.


    Romans 9:14-23, NIV wrote:
    14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath — prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory[?]


    Ephesians 1:1-12, NIV wrote:
    1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will — 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment — to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. 11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.


    Ephesians 2:8-10, NIV wrote:
    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God — 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


    2 Thessalonians 2:8-12, NIV wrote:
    8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.


    2 Timothy 1:8-9, NIV wrote:
    8 So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life — not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.


    2 Timothy 2:24-25, NIV wrote:
    24 And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth.

    _________________
    Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, grab es tief unten im Keller ein.
    Später dann graben es andere aus, und nennen dein Haus das Knochenhaus.
    Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, leg auch ihre weißen Schädel hinein.
    Mit Beton gießt du es aus, das Fundament vom Knochenhaus.
    Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, da ist noch Platz, da paßt noch wer rein.
    Hier tobte sich der Teufel aus, unten im Keller im Knochenhaus.


    Top
     Profile  
     
     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:31 am 
    Offline
    Intern
    Intern
    User avatar

    Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 4:13 pm
    Posts: 1137
    Location: Ground floor, first room on the right.
    Jeremiah Smith wrote:
    AnnoDomini wrote:
    It's a Pronto! 8O

    ((And thus my annual visit is made. Off-topic, as well. :wink: ))

    EDIT: Great thread. Gave me more than a few chuckles and perhaps some pointers on how to counter RHJunior next time he stirrs up a flamewar over at #DnD.


    Bring him over here, this forum needs some life.

    I promise not to make too many insanely huge posts. :)


    While it is certainly tempting, doubly so coming from a moderator, I'm squeamish about doing it. This would, in essence, be provoking a flamewar and would make me a troll. I do not desire that unpleasant title to pertain me, and thus I politely decline.

    _________________
    It's the real me, I swear!


    Top
     Profile  
     
     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:29 pm 
    Offline
    Vorpal Bunny Slipper
    Vorpal Bunny Slipper

    Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 2:54 am
    Posts: 2707
    AnnoDomini wrote:
    This would, in essence, be provoking a flamewar and would make me a troll. I do not desire that unpleasant title to pertain me, and thus I politely decline.


    How, exactly, would having a religion discussion in a religion forum be considered a flamewar? Are you and RHJunior really that sassy when you debate?

    _________________
    Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, grab es tief unten im Keller ein.
    Später dann graben es andere aus, und nennen dein Haus das Knochenhaus.
    Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, leg auch ihre weißen Schädel hinein.
    Mit Beton gießt du es aus, das Fundament vom Knochenhaus.
    Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, da ist noch Platz, da paßt noch wer rein.
    Hier tobte sich der Teufel aus, unten im Keller im Knochenhaus.


    Top
     Profile  
     
     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:56 pm 
    Most theists claim that predestination doesn't actually preclude free will. None of them can explain exactly how, though.


    Top
      
     
     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:47 pm 
    Offline
    Intern
    Intern
    User avatar

    Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 4:13 pm
    Posts: 1137
    Location: Ground floor, first room on the right.
    Jeremiah Smith wrote:
    AnnoDomini wrote:
    This would, in essence, be provoking a flamewar and would make me a troll. I do not desire that unpleasant title to pertain me, and thus I politely decline.


    How, exactly, would having a religion discussion in a religion forum be considered a flamewar? Are you and RHJunior really that sassy when you debate?


    No, not me. I try to stay out of it, because most of the stuff is too convoluted for me to understand and actually debate successfully. Now, RH, on the other hand, has already been banned twice for his ad hominem.

    _________________
    It's the real me, I swear!


    Top
     Profile  
     
     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:46 pm 
    Offline
    Vorpal Bunny Slipper
    Vorpal Bunny Slipper

    Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 2:54 am
    Posts: 2707
    AnnoDomini wrote:
    Now, RH, on the other hand, has already been banned twice for his ad hominem.


    Well, if he gets cranky, I'll tell him to knock it off.

    _________________
    Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, grab es tief unten im Keller ein.
    Später dann graben es andere aus, und nennen dein Haus das Knochenhaus.
    Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, leg auch ihre weißen Schädel hinein.
    Mit Beton gießt du es aus, das Fundament vom Knochenhaus.
    Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, da ist noch Platz, da paßt noch wer rein.
    Hier tobte sich der Teufel aus, unten im Keller im Knochenhaus.


    Top
     Profile  
     
    PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:25 am 
    FrankNorman wrote:
    Anyway, Christians deny the existance of all those "gods" because the Bible (which we hold as infallible) teaches that they do not exist. We believe in our God, and when He tells us "no one else like Me up here" we take His word for it.


    Circular reasoning - see: reasoning, circular

    Reasoning, circular - see: circular reasoning

    Quote:
    Quote:
    [*] You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.


    Pretending not to understand the difference between Christian belief in God (the Creator of all things) and ancient Greek belief in their various "gods" is a standard Atheist tactic.


    Whos' pretending? I, for one, was raised neither Christian nor polytheist. Assume I don't understand the difference. Explain the difference. Both the Greek and Christian cases are of nonhuman supernatural entities causing human pregnancies resulting in half-human, half-deity children.

    BTW, I'm pretty sure I remember (but I may be wrong) that Ogre is a Unitarian Universalist.

    Quote:
    Quote:
    [*] You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.


    The scientifically "established" age of the Earth changes every so often, did you know that? In the early 20th century it was 2.3 billion years, then they doubled it to 4.6 billion. And lets not get started here about all the variations of the Big Bang theories.


    What's established is that it's a hell of a lot longer than 10 millennia.

    Quote:
    And nowhere does the Bible itself set a date for creation.
    Quote:

    Tell that to the Young Earth creationists.


    Quote:
    Quote:
    [*] You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.


    All you'd need to ONE case of something happening that definately would not have happened if you hadn't prayed.
    In any case, God is not a coin-in-the-slot machine.


    Give an example.

    BTW, someone being "miraculously" cured of cancer doesn't count. Cancer goes into remission unexpectedly all the time, in people of all faiths or lack thereof.

    (Yeah, I know I'm piling on a little late here)


    Top
      
     
    PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:52 pm 
    Offline
    Knight of Daisies, Tulip Slayer
    User avatar

    Joined: Sat May 11, 2002 3:03 am
    Posts: 1621
    Location: Sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
    FrankNorman wrote:
    And nowhere does the Bible itself set a date for creation.


    You have to look hard, but it's there. I did it once, and I'm too lazy to do it again.

    But the rough outline of the story is this.

    I had a friend who was an ultra-fundamentalist, trained well in the ways of the Southern Baptist. She absolutely, completely, totally believed that the Earth was a mere 4000 years old, because "it says so in the Bible". She seriously believed that every word of the Bible was absolute literal truth, with no room for people making analogies or parables or anything like that. She believed that it never rained before Adam & Eve got kicked out of Eden, because the Bible never mentions it raining.

    Seriously.

    Anyway, I sat down with her one day, and we went through the Bible, and I noticed in all those really damn boring parts where "Zack begat Fred begat George begat Charles begat WHOTHEFUCKCARES", there are actually clues as to the timing of these begats.

    So we traced things down, from Adam and Eve right at the beginning, up to Jesus Christ's death. And all Christians, no matter how looney fundie, agree on when Christ died.

    The only thing that really stopped us was not knowing how long the Jews were slaves in Egypt. We guessed it at about a thousand years.

    And the Bible "proves" that the world is at least 8000 years old.


    On a side note, this friend has since matured in her faith, and no longer finds a conflict between what the Bible tells you is the age of the Earth, and what the scientists tell you...



    ---------------------------

    OK, here's what I wanna know. How the hell do you go about converting people to your religion when the only thing you can offer to show your religion is true is a book that, not being of your religion, your target audience doesn't accept as truth?

    Kissing Hank's Ass. It makes no sense.

    And the big thing. I *know* as a fundie, you believe that anyone who doesn't share your beliefs is in for an eternity of torment and suffering. And I *know* you think it's your duty as a good person (as defined by your religion) to save as many people from this suffering as you possibly can. But goddamnit, why do you have to be so in-your-face and downright ANNOYING about it?

    Convert people by living your life to the utmost, and being the best darn Christian you can possibly be! Live with honor, do your very best to live up to all the standards Jesus Christ himself set for you, and if you're right, God's going to look favorably upon you. And then other people will look favorably upon you. "Gee, you see that Jack? What a truly wonderful person! I'd like to be more like him. Well, he's Christian isn't he? His faith probably helps him quite a bit to be such a great person. Hmmm..." and so on.

    This will probably be far more effective than the fire and brimstone "BELIEVE AS I BELIEVE OR ELSE!!!" approach. And it has the side benefit that even if someone isn't converted by you, you're at least being a truly decent human being, instead of a really annoying git.

    _________________
    Fandemonium 2010 -- No Boundaries.
    http://www.fandemonium.org
    Friday - Sunday, August 6th - 8th, 2010
    Nampa Civic Center - Nampa, Idaho (Only 20 minutes from the airport!)
    (Idaho: It ain't just potatoes anymore.)


    Top
     Profile  
     
     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:59 pm 
    Offline
    Vorpal Bunny Slipper
    Vorpal Bunny Slipper

    Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 2:54 am
    Posts: 2707
    Ogre: If you're interested in how the 6000 years thing was reached, there's an article here about the first man to come up with it:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ussher_chronology

    Your guess for the captivity in Egypt seems really high: apparently orthodox Jews and Christians hold it at around 450 years or so.

    _________________
    Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, grab es tief unten im Keller ein.
    Später dann graben es andere aus, und nennen dein Haus das Knochenhaus.
    Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, leg auch ihre weißen Schädel hinein.
    Mit Beton gießt du es aus, das Fundament vom Knochenhaus.
    Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, da ist noch Platz, da paßt noch wer rein.
    Hier tobte sich der Teufel aus, unten im Keller im Knochenhaus.


    Top
     Profile  
     
    Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
    Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ] 

    All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


    Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest


    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum

    Search for:
    Jump to:  
    Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group