The Nightstar Zoo

Nightstar IRC Network - irc.nightstar.net
It is currently Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:04 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:18 pm 
About six years too late, but what the hell.

I was thinking about this while perusing Guns & Ammo the other day. If you could name ten 20th century firearms that had the most effect on firearms design and general history, what would they be?

Here's a partial list, submitted for discussion:

1) U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30, M1. The first generally adopted, practical semi-auto battle rifle, the M1 Garand was described by Gen. Patton as "the greatest implement of battle ever designed." High praise from a tread-head. The M1 was in use from the early days of WW2 well into the 60s, and still sees use in National Match version on many service match ranges today.

2) Winchester Model 70. This rifle, especially the pre-64 (really pre-WW2) version, set the standard for sporting rifles, and still does. Even if it is yet another adaptation of the Model 98 Mauser.

3) Colt 1911. Probably the best military handgun ever designed, and has influenced more semi-auto handguns than any other. My carry gun, a Firestar M45, is a 1911 knock-off. Even Smith & Wesson now makes a 1911 clone.

4) Browning M2 .50 caliber machine gun. The finest heavy machine gun in the world, designed in the 'teens, adopted in 1921, and still seeing heavy use today.

5) Remington 870 Wingmaster pumpgun. The 870 isn't fancy, it doesn't command the adulation of the Model 12 Winchester, but with this gun Remington put a lot of fine, hard-working, reliable pumpguns in the hands of millions of hunters.

6) Kalishnikov AK-series rifles. Rugged, cheap, reliable, and easy to maintain by troops with minimal (if any) training. The AK-series guns can and are produced in any reasonably equipped machine shop - I saw a blacksmith in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia hammering out AK receivers once. The AK has probably equipped more troops and irregular fighters than any other military arm.

Room for four more. Any ideas?


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 3:53 pm 
I'd mention the .38 Special, every two-bit crook's weapon of choice, but I don't think that's what you're looking for.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:03 pm 
Cholma wrote:
I'd mention the .38 Special, every two-bit crook's weapon of choice, but I don't think that's what you're looking for.


Especially since the .38 Special is a cartridge, not a firearm. :wink:

The Smith & Wesson Chief's Special was kind of the defining belly gun for years. Of course, a 2" .38 snubby isn't much good if you actually wanted to hit something.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 3:59 pm 
I thought ".38 Special" was the generic term for the cheap .38s that got used in crimes. Maybe it was "Saturday Night Special"?

/me obviously not a weapon or criminal aficionado


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:17 pm 
The .38 Special.

One might argue that the cartridge greatly influenced handgun development, especially since stout loads in heavy revolvers like Smith's big-frame .38/44 led to the development of the .357 Magnum.


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 1:49 pm 
Animal wrote:
About six years too late, but what the hell.

I was thinking about this while perusing Guns & Ammo the other day. If you could name ten 20th century firearms that had the most effect on firearms design and general history, what would they be?

Here's a partial list, submitted for discussion:

1) U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30, M1. The first generally adopted, practical semi-auto battle rifle, the M1 Garand was described by Gen. Patton as "the greatest implement of battle ever designed." High praise from a tread-head. The M1 was in use from the early days of WW2 well into the 60s, and still sees use in National Match version on many service match ranges today.

2) Winchester Model 70. This rifle, especially the pre-64 (really pre-WW2) version, set the standard for sporting rifles, and still does. Even if it is yet another adaptation of the Model 98 Mauser.

3) Colt 1911. Probably the best military handgun ever designed, and has influenced more semi-auto handguns than any other. My carry gun, a Firestar M45, is a 1911 knock-off. Even Smith & Wesson now makes a 1911 clone.

4) Browning M2 .50 caliber machine gun. The finest heavy machine gun in the world, designed in the 'teens, adopted in 1921, and still seeing heavy use today.

5) Remington 870 Wingmaster pumpgun. The 870 isn't fancy, it doesn't command the adulation of the Model 12 Winchester, but with this gun Remington put a lot of fine, hard-working, reliable pumpguns in the hands of millions of hunters.

6) Kalishnikov AK-series rifles. Rugged, cheap, reliable, and easy to maintain by troops with minimal (if any) training. The AK-series guns can and are produced in any reasonably equipped machine shop - I saw a blacksmith in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia hammering out AK receivers once. The AK has probably equipped more troops and irregular fighters than any other military arm.

Room for four more. Any ideas?

The Rimengton nylon 66 .22 cal
as the first mass produced weapon without any wood in or on it


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:51 pm 
Grumpy_Penguin wrote:
The Rimengton nylon 66 .22 cal
as the first mass produced weapon without any wood in or on it


Nope. (You did mean "Remington," right? Proofreading Is Your Friend.)

Stevens was making single-shot 12 and 20 gauge shotguns with plastic stocks during WW2. I think there were others, but I know about the Stevens - I owned one of the 12-gauge guns for a while.

I'd argue that the Nylon 66 didn't really influence much. Later guns that relied on synthetics were quite different in design, the 66 didn't sell that well, and it was as ugly as Ted Kennedy nursing a hangover.


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:13 am 
Animal wrote:
Grumpy_Penguin wrote:
The Rimengton nylon 66 .22 cal
as the first mass produced weapon without any wood in or on it


Nope. (You did mean "Remington," right? Proofreading Is Your Friend.)

Stevens was making single-shot 12 and 20 gauge shotguns with plastic stocks during WW2. I think there were others, but I know about the Stevens - I owned one of the 12-gauge guns for a while.

I'd argue that the Nylon 66 didn't really influence much. Later guns that relied on synthetics were quite different in design, the 66 didn't sell that well, and it was as ugly as Ted Kennedy nursing a hangover.

sure infulanced me was 2nd gun I ever had [1st was a J.C. Higgens youth rifle} still got both of them.


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:45 am 
Grumpy_Penguin wrote:
sure infulanced me was 2nd gun I ever had [1st was a J.C. Higgens youth rifle} still got both of them.


May have influenced you, but that's not the topic. Feel free to start a topic, of course, on guns that have had the most influence on you as a shooter or hunter.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:40 pm 
Umm, do aircraft guns qualify as "firearms"?

I think the FN-FAL deserves a mention, it is after all the most widely used assault rifle after the AK-47...

Also, the german MG-43 could fit in... 60 years later, and it's still being used.

And the HK MP5 family, they brought respectable firepower to special police units everywhere.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:46 pm 
Offline
Knight of Daisies, Tulip Slayer
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 11, 2002 5:39 pm
Posts: 316
The Thompson Sub-Machine Gun.

It spawned off a host of laws, movies, and erroneous information on automatic weaponry, as well as created an entire genre of 'noir' media.

BW

_________________
----------------------------------------------------------
I'll get a life when it is proven and substantiated to be better than what I am currently experiencing.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:11 pm 
Offline
Concession Worker
Concession Worker
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2003 5:26 pm
Posts: 1479
Location: R'lyeh
The Mauser 98 should definitely be on that list - not as footnote but as a headliner. :)

Quote:
Also, the german MG-43 could fit in... 60 years later, and it's still being used.

There was an MG43? There was an MG34 and an MG42 (both hugely influential), but I've never heard of an MG43...

_________________
Living in a state free from the burdens of privacy and democracy since 2008-06-18.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:30 pm 
gnolam wrote:
The Mauser 98 should definitely be on that list - not as footnote but as a headliner. :)


Don't ask me why the hell I didn't think of that one, when I've got several custom and military Mausers, and I edited a Mauser e-zine for almost four years. The 98 Mauser set the pattern for almost all bolt guns since.

Even the Model 70 Winchester that I mentioned is a glorified 98 Mauser. So is the Remington 700. The US 1903 Springfield was so close a copy that the US Government paid a royalty to Mauser-Werke.

Color me embarrassed.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 2:39 am 
Offline
Knight of Daisies, Tulip Slayer
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 11, 2002 5:39 pm
Posts: 316
Then I'd drop the Winchester, and simply put in the Mauser - put in the winchester as a subnote of the Mauser.

The "Kentucky" long rifle from the US Revolutionary War made an impact - it made a wonderful sniper weapon against idiots wearing red and white outfits, and made more of an overall impact on the historical development of the US than any of the other weapons of the time.

(I still go for the machine gun.. :) )

Gatling gun - first mass-producted automatic weapon, with a design that continued on even through today (Vulcan, and so forth)

BW

_________________
----------------------------------------------------------
I'll get a life when it is proven and substantiated to be better than what I am currently experiencing.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 6:05 pm 
Bookworm wrote:
The "Kentucky" long rifle from the US Revolutionary War made an impact...
...Gatling gun - first mass-producted automatic weapon, with a design that continued on even through today (Vulcan, and so forth)

BW


I almost posted about these myself, but Animal's post specifically said 20th Century weapons. Mauser 98 slips in, because although it was first created in 1898, it continued to be made and improved upon up through WWII. (and certainly had a major impact on 20th century weapons)


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:34 pm 
gnolam wrote:
The Mauser 98 should definitely be on that list - not as footnote but as a headliner. :)

Quote:
Also, the german MG-43 could fit in... 60 years later, and it's still being used.
There was an MG43? There was an MG34 and an MG42 (both hugely influential), but I've never heard of an MG43...


Yes, in fact I was thinking of the MG42, I just got the name mixed up with the MG-43...

And I also immediately thought of the Mauser, but the 98 made me think it was ineligible.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:42 pm 
Offline
Knight of Daisies, Tulip Slayer
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 11, 2002 3:03 am
Posts: 1621
Location: Sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
I still think the Mauser 98 should be ineligible, as it was invented in the 19th century. Same with the Maxim gun.

My vote is for the Browning Automatic Rifle, the BAR. Probably the most fantastic subgun ever. It's got the cyclic speed, the KE from the 30-06 round, and the accuracy. Ad Topperwein used it to shoot 1.5" steel discs out of the air during a demo to the Army.

My other vote is for the STEN. The STEN is cheap and ugly as hell. But it was very cheap to make and easy to get into the hands of the troops. And due to the ease of making a receiver, and the readily available supply of parts kits, it's a favorite cache gun for the survivalist type.

_________________
Fandemonium 2010 -- No Boundaries.
http://www.fandemonium.org
Friday - Sunday, August 6th - 8th, 2010
Nampa Civic Center - Nampa, Idaho (Only 20 minutes from the airport!)
(Idaho: It ain't just potatoes anymore.)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:16 pm 
Offline
Knight of Daisies, Tulip Slayer
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 11, 2002 5:39 pm
Posts: 316
Well, but I thought the point here was to pick the guns that had the biggest _impact_ - in general.

More people have seen the Tommy gun in action (movies/TV) as well as heard about it, than have probably heard about the "Mauser 98".

Why? Because there wasn't much to romanticize about the Mauser.

Lugers, they'll know. Walther P-38, maybe. The Mauser I knew about first was the "Broomstick Mauser" pistol.

AK-47, M-16 - people know those names.

.50 caliber machine gun, yes. "Twin barreled, water cooled .50 caliber machine guns, mounted in the turrets on a B-17 bomber.."

_________________
----------------------------------------------------------
I'll get a life when it is proven and substantiated to be better than what I am currently experiencing.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:08 am 
How about the Glock line of handguns? They were quite a turning point in pistol design, and have become pretty ubiquitous among cops nowadays. At least city cops; rural cops here at least still prefer big-caliber revolvers.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:40 pm 
Offline
Knight of Daisies, Tulip Slayer
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 11, 2002 5:39 pm
Posts: 316
I could see glocks being an impact, yes. Most people have at least heard the name. Personally, I'd rather not have a plastic pistol.

If I want something that'll go through a metal detector, I'll use a bronze alloy and black powder.

_________________
----------------------------------------------------------
I'll get a life when it is proven and substantiated to be better than what I am currently experiencing.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:57 pm 
Eh, I'd say we should judge by the impact the guns had on the world of weapons, not on the movie fame... so what if everyone's seen the AK-47 in movies? That's not the reason it's one of the most notable guns, rather the other way around.


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:17 pm 
Offline
Knight of Daisies, Tulip Slayer
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 11, 2002 5:39 pm
Posts: 316
Animal said "Firearms design and general history". History is made up of perception, specifically the general public.

_________________
----------------------------------------------------------
I'll get a life when it is proven and substantiated to be better than what I am currently experiencing.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group