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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 12:57 pm 
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I've always wondered why people take such a dim view on "camping"...

I mean, it's a perfectly valid tactic of battle, used all the time in the real world. So why not in the FPS games?

Seriously. You don't think they send soldiers out with bigass rifles to find themselves somewhere to hide, so they can take out the enemy unexpectedly and from a goodly distance? Those soldiers are called *SNIPERS*, people.

Oh, I know why people don't like "campers" in FPS games. It's because they don't know how to deal with them. When a person can sit in the same place for the entire game and splatter anyone who runs by, and rack up 67 kills to everyone else's 12 or 13... Just because people don't have the ability to THINK and ANALYZE what's going on... "Hmm, I walked into this room *again* and got shot *again*, maybe I should look next time and figure out where the shot is coming from, and next time I come through here, lob a couple rockets that direction"... Ya think?

That's why I rarely play FPS games. Because that's what I like to do. So why is it so bad?

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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 1:58 pm 
Only problem I have with it is that a game fulla campers gets awful boring awful quick.

Agreed, the tactic is valid, but the terrain usually - almost never - properly supports it. Most 'campsites' are one-way-in, one-way-out deathtraps, deliberately designed as such by the game creators to keep people moving and interested in the game.

Or so it seems to me. *shrug*


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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 2:11 pm 
Last time I played multiplayer FPS ( which was years ago. Before headshots counted for anything. ) "campers" was used for people camping near respawn points. Which is a tad unsporting.


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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 3:03 pm 
Ogredude wrote:
I've always wondered why people take such a dim view on "camping"...

I mean, it's a perfectly valid tactic of battle, used all the time in the real world. So why not in the FPS games?

Seriously. You don't think they send soldiers out with bigass rifles to find themselves somewhere to hide, so they can take out the enemy unexpectedly and from a goodly distance? Those soldiers are called *SNIPERS*, people.

Oh, I know why people don't like "campers" in FPS games. It's because they don't know how to deal with them. When a person can sit in the same place for the entire game and splatter anyone who runs by, and rack up 67 kills to everyone else's 12 or 13... Just because people don't have the ability to THINK and ANALYZE what's going on... "Hmm, I walked into this room *again* and got shot *again*, maybe I should look next time and figure out where the shot is coming from, and next time I come through here, lob a couple rockets that direction"... Ya think?

That's why I rarely play FPS games. Because that's what I like to do. So why is it so bad?


Might want to give America's Army a whirl. Devs there have publically decreed that camping is a legit tactic, they've even implemented a sneaky punishment mode for those who complain about campers.

There's a kick option which says: votekick for camping, but when selected it actually says: X is nominated for a votekick, because they are complaining about camping.

Snipers don't rule the roost there, but they are useful. Not enough sniping spots on most maps though, kinda a pity imo. And there are definite ways to deal with enemy snipers. 203 shelling is usually enough to nail a sniper, course 203 shelling is a problem all round, with some folks memorizing angles etc and shelling spawnpoints right from the start.

Sniperduels can be fun though. *g* It's all about getting the first shot off.


Last edited by IS_Wolf on Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 3:25 pm 
AA is a great game.
So far I haven't had much problems with 'nade spamming, but of course I haven't played it that much. Besides, my fave weapon there is the SAW, got a ton of ammo, decent accuracy and can move quickly when needed (if you don't support it, which I think is dumb. As if you need to fold the bipod to lift the gun off the ground :) )
And it's supposed to be a "real army" game, so of course the snipers are a valid tactic. On the open maps (the kind I like most), most of the time a decisive one.

As for sniper camping in UT and Quake, the games were designed with frenetic, fast paced action and constant moving, so of course people who play them expect fast-paced action. A sniper perched behind some boxes can really put a lid on that, so they don't like it. So, if you like sniping, go play America's Army or some other similar game (Operation Flashpoint springs to mind).


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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 8:03 pm 
Anh Minh wrote:
Last time I played multiplayer FPS ( which was years ago. Before headshots counted for anything. ) "campers" was used for people camping near respawn points. Which is a tad unsporting.

Exactly. I wouldn't mind if the snipers were used in a normal fasion, but placing them near a spawn point and killing people before they have a chance to move is hardly fair.


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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 11:06 pm 
Yeh, I'm more into RPG's, adventure, and stratagy but I think that snipping is a valid tactic. Half the time the sniper get shot anyway (as long as he's playing against good people)


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 12:19 am 
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Well I downloaded America's Army when it first came out, but it wouldn't work with my Riva TNT2 Ultra video card... I was getting about 6 fps on it. Awful.

I've now got a GeForce 4 MX in here, so I downloaded AA again a few days ago, haven't gotten a chance to play it yet. I will give it a try in the next few days.

I played the Halo demo a few times last week, and I was very impressed that aimed shots were absolutely REQUIRED at points in the game (mainly to kill the Hunters)... That game is pretty cool.


When we used to play Duke Nukem 3D, there was one spot on one of the levels that seemed to be DESIGNED for a camper... It was a room that you HAD to pass through to get to the exit. There was a secret door in one of the walls, containing a respawning box of pipebombs. There was a secret door in the back of that compartment that let you back behind a computer screen, where you had a perfect view of the room, but nobody could see you. There was also a respawning armor in there. From the room side, people could not go through the computer screens, but munitions could.

The trick was to jump in there and start seeding the room with pipebomb after pipebomb. You could usually manage to fill most of the floor with pipebombs before someone came in, at which point you would trigger the lot of them and blow the enemy to smithereens.

Of course, since the computer screen let munitions through, the trick was to come in the door and send a few RPG's through the computer screens. If there was a camper back there, he would most likely be caught by the blast. Unless he was REALLY good, in which case he could scrunch himself up into the back corner of the space and get away with only 10% damage or so.

It was ideal. And that's where I managed to rack up 60+ kills to everyone else's 12-15. But I'd still get killed every so often, and have to make my way back to that point, usually getting fragged a few times on the way. Good fun.

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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 5:18 am 
Ogredude wrote:
Well I downloaded America's Army when it first came out, but it wouldn't work with my Riva TNT2 Ultra video card... I was getting about 6 fps on it. Awful.

I've now got a GeForce 4 MX in here, so I downloaded AA again a few days ago, haven't gotten a chance to play it yet. I will give it a try in the next few days.



Uhm. They jacked up the system requirements for SF. And trust me you definitely need the horsepower to run certain SF maps. Hospital is a real stinker in that sense.

Quote:
Q: What are the minimum system requirements for the Windows 2.0 version?
A:

3-D graphics card with 64 MB memory and support for hardware transformation and lighting

1.3 GHz processor or equivalent

English version of Windows(r) 98/ME/2000/XP Operating System

256 MB RAM

1.62GB of uncompressed hard disk space for game files

Quad-speed CD-ROM (600K/sec sustained transfer rate)

Windows 98/ME/2000/XP compatible system (including compatible 32-bit drivers for CD-ROM drive, video card, sound card, mouse and keyboard)

DirectX(r)8.1

DirectX(r)8.1 or higher compatible sound card and drivers*

56.6 Kbps modem or higher network connection


Running with the recommended or even higher is definitely advised.

Quote:
Q: What are the recommended system requirements for the Windows 2.0 version?
A: The recommended requirements for the game are:

3-D graphics card with 128 MB memory and support for hardware transformation and lighting
2.0 GHz processor or equivalent
English version of Windows(r) 98/ME/2000/XP Operating System
512 MB RAM
1.62GB of uncompressed hard disk space for game files
Quad-speed CD-ROM (600K/sec sustained transfer rate)
Windows 98/ME/2000/XP compatible system (including compatible 32-bit drivers for CD-ROM drive, video card, sound card, mouse and keyboard)
DirectX(r)8.1
DirectX(r)8.1 or higher compatible sound card and drivers*
Broadband Network Connection*NVIDIA(r) nForce(tm) or other motherboards/soundcards containing the Dolby(r) Digital Interactive Content Encoder required for Dolby Digital audio


Last edited by IS_Wolf on Mon May 10, 2004 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 1:48 pm 
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Okay, then it'll still probably play like shit.

Goddamnit.

And the only upgrade path left on this computer is replacement. Any further upgrade would require replacement of Motherboard, CPU, RAM, which means it's better just to replace the whole damn thing.

Oh, and as for camping over respawn points, I agree, that's badnasty. Now, camping over *STUFF* respawn points, that's different... Don't you knwo you should always be aware of your surroundings, especially when heading in for resupply?

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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 2:23 pm 
Ogredude wrote:
Okay, then it'll still probably play like shit.

Goddamnit.

And the only upgrade path left on this computer is replacement. Any further upgrade would require replacement of Motherboard, CPU, RAM, which means it's better just to replace the whole damn thing.



All I can say is, that when you have the machine for it, then AA is definitely worth it. Heck, the testing mission to join the SF alone would be worth it, you should've heard the number ofcomplaints from folks too impatient to pull it off.. hehe..

Course I'm biased, considering I've managed to qualify for every special feature they have. Medic, Sniper, Parachute drops and SF. And when the next version comes out, we'll get to tinker around with the Stryker armoured vehicle. Plus sunlight and its blinding effect will become more important too.

Decent map for snipers (sorta) is SF sandstorm. Not 100% if you could run it, but considering it doesn't have a lot of flashy thingamabobs you should be able to run it and not end up with a slideshow effect.


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 3:46 pm 
I have a PIII 450, and a GeForce 2 MX 32MB graphics card, and 512 MB RAM (and a 56k modem). On my system, AA:SF is playable enough on the old maps, Bridge, Mountain Pass and Insurgent Camp (the only ones I tried). I have also tried playing SF Sandstorm in single-play, but that was already pushing it, I don't think it would work if I tried for real.
I first tried AA in version 1.3, I had a Celeron 433, and it was playable just fine. That game is very, very tolerant as far as hardware requirements go. I guess it not being a twitch-shooting game helps a lot, as UT was barely playable on that system.

As for sniping, Mountain Pass is a map where a good sniper can make it or break it, especially if there's no 'nade spammers.


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 5:35 pm 
Mravac Kid wrote:
I have a PIII 450, and a GeForce 2 MX 32MB graphics card, and 512 MB RAM (and a 56k modem). On my system, AA:SF is playable enough on the old maps, Bridge, Mountain Pass and Insurgent Camp (the only ones I tried). I have also tried playing SF Sandstorm in single-play, but that was already pushing it, I don't think it would work if I tried for real.
I first tried AA in version 1.3, I had a Celeron 433, and it was playable just fine. That game is very, very tolerant as far as hardware requirements go. I guess it not being a twitch-shooting game helps a lot, as UT was barely playable on that system.

As for sniping, Mountain Pass is a map where a good sniper can make it or break it, especially if there's no 'nade spammers.


More RAM tends to make a difference, least it did for me. Let's just say I got a fairly hefty machine. :P


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 7:42 pm 
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IS_Wolf wrote:
And when the next version comes out, we'll get to tinker around with the Stryker armoured vehicle.


Are they doing a next version? I read a news report a few days ago that said they'd stopped the project entirely.

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Friday - Sunday, August 6th - 8th, 2010
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(Idaho: It ain't just potatoes anymore.)


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 5:16 am 
Ogredude wrote:
IS_Wolf wrote:
And when the next version comes out, we'll get to tinker around with the Stryker armoured vehicle.


Are they doing a next version? I read a news report a few days ago that said they'd stopped the project entirely.


Yup. They'll keep working as long as the Army keeps funding. There's been no news that the plug has been pulled.

Heck, they'll be at E3 with their latest build.

See the Sitrep linked above. Doesn't look like they're going away to me.
:)


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:28 pm 
Ya' know, I never found camping that bad. my "friends" however if you kill one in a match of say, counter-strike, they ALWAYS accuse you of camping. the real problem with camping is how people use it as an excuse for their crappy, crappy skills. So you get killed a few times? quit whining and b*tching about it. grow up people.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:03 pm 
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noodleboy: Thread necromancy is bad, mmkay?

Anyway, regarding the OP:
There are three main reasons for not liking snipers in FPSs:
1) Pacing. As Mravac pointed out, it has a tendency to ruin the pacing of "pure" FPSs like UT or Quake (and to some extent CS).
2) Teamplay. In team- and classbased games like Battlefield 1942 or Return to Castle Wolfenstein, sniper infestation is actually a real problem. Now don't get me wrong, the occasional sniper can be an asset (and there are places in both games where snipers are almost necessary to get a shot (no pun intended) at winning) - but when 75% of your team are snipers, you're going to lose. Badly. In my experience, snipers are very rarely team players - most just seem to be concerned about their stats, team and objective be damned.
3) Honor. It's seen as a cowardly. In my personal opinion: who cares, as long as it doesn't devolve to spawn camping (which is cowardly and ruins gameplay) or violate point #2...

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 10:06 pm 
gnolam wrote:
noodleboy: Thread necromancy is bad, mmkay?


Why? ;)
If a topic suddenly becomes relevant again, should you start a new one and re-argue every point that has been discussed before?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:26 am 
First off, camping spawn points is a Bad Thing...It requires no skill, it's cheap, and it rightfully should get you kicked...

Snipers in Battlefield (and other large number wargames) and AA are great...

I love facing snipers in AA on the Bridge map...smoke grenades, and a thrill... BLAM, I screwed up, didn't work with the team on the smoke screen, got too hasty... Bad things to do as a soldier...
In wargames, where it's supposed to be somewhat realistic, I feel it adds to the atmosphere. And like it's been said, these games promote vaguely realistic troop deployments, so everyone has their role.

Games like UT/2K3/4 are supposed to be fast paced, but rarely do I see anyone accuse someone of being a camper - I find the maps pretty balanced, so the sniper can take out perhaps 2-3 people before they realize where he is, and if they're somewhat decent players, they'll find a way to neutralize him (sometimes it's just as simple as firing a shot up there and having them run...no cover in maps like that.) I call that balance...
I used to play with a guy who liked to find out of way places to start sniping, and he was good - we knew he liked to snipe, but he wasn't a camper, because after a short while we'd notice and go after him. I prefer actively hunting, and we got kills realtive to our skill - when he later switched tactics (because on certain maps his nests were routinely checked) he still got the same kill ratio - thus, it's acceptable. In games like this, so long as the sniper suddenly become a Hollywood one-man army via poorly designed maps, then the point of the game is maintained.

In the two previous examples, camping isn't really an issue because it's either appropriate, or can be dealt with - everyone has their tactics, and being a sniper is merely one viable, winnable choice (after all, you still get all the other weapons to play with.) Slow based, and fast based...in properly designed maps, sure they get a lotta kills initially, but a revealed sniper should become a dead sniper with the proper respective reactions.

The big giant problem with Camping (nonspawn) is CS...
There is of course no camping of spawn points in CS, but you'd expect a CT to defend bombsites, and Ts to defend bombs - that's the entire point. Anyone who calls them campers is missing the point of the game...if the CTs have the sites locked down, why on earth should they run? And vice versa.

The REAL Campers, the ones that are problems are the LAST guys. When it's 16 vs 16, and his entire team is dead and he's outnumbered 8 to 1... sure, if the timer runs out his team wins, but there's 23 people sitting there waiting, and that is completely unacceptable.

The point is less that in CS, yes we have the 'realism' of having sharpshooters, but then you have the whole "Do unto others" thing where you don't act like a right arse and keep everyone waiting...


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:33 am 
And re-reading one of Oggy's posts about Duke3D...

That's a horrible thing. It becomes a 'know the exploit in the map' more than anything else...and that is unacceptable. It is as bad as nad spamming - it goes against the spirit of the game.

At least in the other games, if the snipers can shoot you, you could potentially have seen them...


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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 12:06 pm 
gods, in unreal championship, there was one level of 3 on 3 deathball (or something like that) where there was only two spawn points, and you allways, ALLWAYS spawned at your team's spawn point.

So, i was running around with the ball for my team, when i managed to make my way back to the enemy score room, only,m instead of turning left to go into the goal, i turned right and went to their spawn point.

I racked up 17 kills with a single chaingun load. it was the one and only time i ever scored a "godlike".


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 3:21 pm 
Seems to me like there's some hypocrisy involved in camping.

Of course spawn camping is bad juju, but most newer games have gotten around that nicely (IE, no spawn "pads" like in Quake 2, 10 second invulnerablility, etc.).

But other than spawn camping, I'm not sure why everybody is trippin'. Even the argument that it's more appropriate for "realistic" games such as CS, BF1942, Far Cry, etc. as opposed to "spray and pray" type classid FPS games such as Quake and UT doesn't hold water. If that were the case why did the designers put in rail guns, lightning guns, etc.?

I figure if someone doesn't like a camper they can put a stop to it. And by "put a stop to it" I don't mean whining to server admins, I mean finding their location and putting a rocket up their ass or whatever. Use some o' those L337 skillz to pwnzor a camper. Which is why the smart snipers fire a shot or two then displace.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:08 pm 
The easiest way to beat a camper is to get proper equipment and vary your approach route. Unless the map has huge design flaws, that shouldn't be very hard to do.

Some people fail to realize it's not about raw skill. A good grasp of tactics and a sense of preparation can compensate for a huge gap in playing ability.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:46 am 
Fool_Marquis wrote:
gods, in unreal championship, there was one level of 3 on 3 deathball (or something like that) where there was only two spawn points, and you allways, ALLWAYS spawned at your team's spawn point.

So, i was running around with the ball for my team, when i managed to make my way back to the enemy score room, only,m instead of turning left to go into the goal, i turned right and went to their spawn point.

I racked up 17 kills with a single chaingun load. it was the one and only time i ever scored a "godlike".


Then, my good fellow, you have not figured out vehicles.

Give me a golioth and a shot into the blue base on the ...map with a mountain in the middle, and I'll rack up 50 kills before someone can kill the tank.

This assumes my teammates are supporting me properly and keeping the birds off of my back


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:27 pm 
Miles Invictus wrote:
The easiest way to beat a camper is to get proper equipment and vary your approach route. Unless the map has huge design flaws, that shouldn't be very hard to do.

Some people fail to realize it's not about raw skill. A good grasp of tactics and a sense of preparation can compensate for a huge gap in playing ability.


That was nicely put.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:34 pm 
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Mister Priapus wrote:
But other than spawn camping, I'm not sure why everybody is trippin'.

Read my previous post in this thread.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:33 pm 
Mravac Kid wrote:
Operation Flashpoint springs to mind.

Ahem. You can sit in the bushes with your sniper rifle all you want. I'll be over THERE, atop that thar mountain, in the T55, staring at you from above with a HEAT round loaded.

Seriously, the best way to 'snipe' in that game doesn't involve the sniper rifles. It doesn't involve the antitank guns. What you use instead is the laser designator and a teammate in an A-10 (LGB). Can you say, "entire tank platoon destroyed with just one bomb?" :twisted:


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