The Nightstar Zoo

Nightstar IRC Network - irc.nightstar.net
It is currently Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:00 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:06 am 
Offline
Janitor
Janitor
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:44 pm
Posts: 2167
Schlock looks really sad. Those cookies must have been awesome. No wonder Nick is pissed that funky-hair-guy is getting his extra cookie.


On that note, with the teraport, technically Schlock could get fresh cookies, right now. Best we not tell him though.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:29 am 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:53 pm
Posts: 304
Only if they aren't in a TAD right now. And given that they're heading in system to a major corporation they probably are.

Also I want to know what the three "post scarcity" periods were. I would think that it would go from regular manufacturing to an energy dependent economy. Which is what it currently is. So what were the intermediary steps. Perhaps one of them was having an annie plant. Since that seems to be what stops a civilization from going from reaching their modern technology level. But again that seems to the be the current commodity.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:33 am 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:38 am
Posts: 340
I think two of the basic commodities are energy (solved by annie plants, at least for civilian usage) and PTUs (for building more annie plants after longevity promised an enormous population boom, possibly about to be solved by the world forge). Basic items might be a third (solved by fabbers).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:44 am 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:10 am
Posts: 328
I'm thinking, depending on when humanity got a wormgate, mobility, Energy, and now PTUs.

Mobility was hideously constrained by lack of faster than light travel, a thing fixed by the Wormgate's arrival in-system.

Energy was solved by the loaner Annie plant that humanity used to start building their own. This would have come after the Wormgate, since you can't 'loan' a blueprint, and you basically need an Annie plant to make the PTUs for another Annie plant - the alternative is to do it without one which takes years of concerted effort of a planet's standard power generation.

And now PTUs, which aren't quite SCARCE so much as they are time consuming. If they could reliably build a giant Annie plant like the one they mentioned during Oisri, they'd be able to do it much faster. But even a microscopic defect in that plant caused an absolutely massive explosion.

Although, remember that Cindy is 600 years old, and began life in the Celeschuul system; she'd only been through the Wormgate once, when she was sent out to whereveritwas, where Shep lived. It could be just about anything that was at some point scarce and in some way useful. it could be friggin Tupperware containers. It could be fiddly bits. It could be animated musicals.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:46 am 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:38 am
Posts: 340
I don't think mobility really fits. Cindy implies that humanity first thought they had entered post-scarcity and only afterwards discovered what was missing. The actual first post-scarcity period should thus be what modern-day humanity would consider it - either energy or material goods. I'm leaning towards material goods and thus (the precursors of) fabber technology, which required more energy than anticipated. The question is, was Cindy around to witness that? If not, there may have been even more than three supposed post-scarcity events.
Mobility is obviously a tremendous boon and most likely resulted in the loaner-annie, but I don't see anyone going "If only we could leave Sol System, we would have no shortages of anything anymore!"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:39 am 
Offline
Monkey House Exhibit
Monkey House Exhibit

Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:40 pm
Posts: 569
Location: Land of the webbed feet
Cifer wrote:
I don't think mobility really fits. Cindy implies that humanity first thought they had entered post-scarcity and only afterwards discovered what was missing. The actual first post-scarcity period should thus be what modern-day humanity would consider it - either energy or material goods. I'm leaning towards material goods and thus (the precursors of) fabber technology, which required more energy than anticipated. The question is, was Cindy around to witness that? If not, there may have been even more than three supposed post-scarcity events.
Mobility is obviously a tremendous boon and most likely resulted in the loaner-annie, but I don't see anyone going "If only we could leave Sol System, we would have no shortages of anything anymore!"

That is basically being said in the real world right now: if we can get access to the rest of the Sol system, our troubles will be over.

Uh-huh. :roll:

--FreeFlier


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:41 am 
Offline
Intern
Intern
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2003 3:55 pm
Posts: 1253
Location: City of Brotherly Love
Even in an economy where goods are so abundant, so quickly and easily mass-produced that they might as well be free, there will still be scarcity. But it will be scarcity of what many would consider luxuries.

For example, if I wanted a house or apartment next to the Hudson or East River, or the Thames, or the Seine, and within the major cities surrounding those rivers, I'd probably be out of luck unless I was willing to pay two arms and a leg's worth of whatever currency was in use. Even then I might still be out of luck since lots of other people would also want to live there or put their business there, and one of those people might offer a better price or just get in there first.

Yes with the kind of tech available to a post-scarcity economy a hab could be built or a world terraformed to look like those areas, but they would not be the original New York City, London, or Paris; I'd be out of luck if I didn't want to live in New Paris next to the New Seine. Other such luxury goods, like art from popular artists (musician, painter, sculptor etc.) would also be relatively scarce. People would work to acquire some of these luxuries and for something to do, like the Toughs are doing now.

_________________
The MacNut
Artist and writer of The Vanguard, a space opera superhero comic.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:48 am 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 10:10 pm
Posts: 344
The scarcities I can see are
Food. (currently "solved" by the Haber–Bosch process.)
Energy.
Housing.
Important stuff to do, (Relevancy).

The current crunch is that Housing AND Energy, sufficiently abundant before everyone was set to live forever, can't keep up with a population with no growth limit.

What is sufficient for all needs and any reasonable wants, for a stable population size, isn't after that population grows.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:50 am 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:10 am
Posts: 328
FreeFlier wrote:
Cifer wrote:
I don't think mobility really fits. Cindy implies that humanity first thought they had entered post-scarcity and only afterwards discovered what was missing. The actual first post-scarcity period should thus be what modern-day humanity would consider it - either energy or material goods. I'm leaning towards material goods and thus (the precursors of) fabber technology, which required more energy than anticipated. The question is, was Cindy around to witness that? If not, there may have been even more than three supposed post-scarcity events.
Mobility is obviously a tremendous boon and most likely resulted in the loaner-annie, but I don't see anyone going "If only we could leave Sol System, we would have no shortages of anything anymore!"

That is basically being said in the real world right now: if we can get access to the rest of the Sol system, our troubles will be over.

Uh-huh. :roll:

--FreeFlier


I don't know about 'anything' but there really is an absolutely MASSIVE amount of resources out in the solar system, if we could only reach them cost-effectively enough to make them worthwhile. We're talking enough water ice to flood Mars, enough iron and nickel to armor plate the Earth, enough hydrogen to power humanity through fusion for dozens of millennia....and perhaps most importantly, whats put there...is SPACE. Not just the void of microgravity but enough physical space for overpopulation to be a disgusting historical quirk of the era, like how people now are disgusted by how people in the past solved the problem of not having sewers and indoor plumbing by simply *flinging it into the street*.

IF we could reach it cost effectively enough to start the ball rolling. Obviously, the trouble is we have to reach a certain point for that to be feasible. For it to be seen as *preferable*. That's a tall order.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:28 am 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:53 pm
Posts: 314
Don't look at the total of all the material in the solar system; look at what is obtainable before the cost goes up.

Even on earth, liquid oil was cheap enough to pump up, and now the shale oil needs a more expensive fraking process.

For that matter, part of the cost is cleanup. If you don't require people to clean up after themselves, the mining/extraction can be a lot cheaper. But it might involve a lot of the 4th sea.

"You mean sea 4".

_________________
I hope Para never plays with Tenzy. The result would be terrifying.
Para and Petey need to have some dialog together. Just because.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:28 pm 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:10 am
Posts: 328
keybounce wrote:
Don't look at the total of all the material in the solar system; look at what is obtainable before the cost goes up.

Even on earth, liquid oil was cheap enough to pump up, and now the shale oil needs a more expensive fraking process.

For that matter, part of the cost is cleanup. If you don't require people to clean up after themselves, the mining/extraction can be a lot cheaper. But it might involve a lot of the 4th sea.

"You mean sea 4".


Like I said, if we can get it cost effective enough. Once we can figure out how to tool up to get the ball rolling, it'll get progressively easier and more profitable. The biggest problem is that we have to expend like 80% of the cost of development just getting out of the gravity well and into orbit. And as for clean up, well....we have this nice great big incinerator at the center of the system, and all you have to do is give your waste materials a nice little nudge in the right direction. The sun has been swallowing rocks since before the one we live on existed, and it'll continue to do so long long after its swallowed THAT one up.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:14 pm 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 10:10 pm
Posts: 344
Kendrakirai wrote:
keybounce wrote:
Don't look at the total of all the material in the solar system; look at what is obtainable before the cost goes up.

Even on earth, liquid oil was cheap enough to pump up, and now the shale oil needs a more expensive fraking process.

For that matter, part of the cost is cleanup. If you don't require people to clean up after themselves, the mining/extraction can be a lot cheaper. But it might involve a lot of the 4th sea.

"You mean sea 4".


Like I said, if we can get it cost effective enough. Once we can figure out how to tool up to get the ball rolling, it'll get progressively easier and more profitable. The biggest problem is that we have to expend like 80% of the cost of development just getting out of the gravity well and into orbit. And as for clean up, well....we have this nice great big incinerator at the center of the system, and all you have to do is give your waste materials a nice little nudge in the right direction. The sun has been swallowing rocks since before the one we live on existed, and it'll continue to do so long long after its swallowed THAT one up.


I find this last bit short-sighted.
The solar system is large enough to dedicate a trojan point to waste consolidation.
I fully believe, once we get nano-assembler technology figured out, WasteManagement may become one of the richest MINING corporations in the world.
All the elements you need for civic live, all collected in one spot: your local landfill.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:33 pm 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:10 am
Posts: 328
Sean wrote:
Kendrakirai wrote:
keybounce wrote:
Don't look at the total of all the material in the solar system; look at what is obtainable before the cost goes up.

Even on earth, liquid oil was cheap enough to pump up, and now the shale oil needs a more expensive fraking process.

For that matter, part of the cost is cleanup. If you don't require people to clean up after themselves, the mining/extraction can be a lot cheaper. But it might involve a lot of the 4th sea.

"You mean sea 4".


Like I said, if we can get it cost effective enough. Once we can figure out how to tool up to get the ball rolling, it'll get progressively easier and more profitable. The biggest problem is that we have to expend like 80% of the cost of development just getting out of the gravity well and into orbit. And as for clean up, well....we have this nice great big incinerator at the center of the system, and all you have to do is give your waste materials a nice little nudge in the right direction. The sun has been swallowing rocks since before the one we live on existed, and it'll continue to do so long long after its swallowed THAT one up.


I find this last bit short-sighted.
The solar system is large enough to dedicate a trojan point to waste consolidation.
I fully believe, once we get nano-assembler technology figured out, WasteManagement may become one of the richest MINING corporations in the world.
All the elements you need for civic live, all collected in one spot: your local landfill.


When we get nano assembler technology sorted out, nobody is going to notice a few million metric tons of rock when we can dismantle MOONS. Or turn the planet into a solid ball of infinitely recycling nanomachines thanks to a gray goo scenario.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:48 pm 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 10:10 pm
Posts: 344
Kendrakirai wrote:
Sean wrote:
Kendrakirai wrote:

Like I said, if we can get it cost effective enough. Once we can figure out how to tool up to get the ball rolling, it'll get progressively easier and more profitable. The biggest problem is that we have to expend like 80% of the cost of development just getting out of the gravity well and into orbit. And as for clean up, well....we have this nice great big incinerator at the center of the system, and all you have to do is give your waste materials a nice little nudge in the right direction. The sun has been swallowing rocks since before the one we live on existed, and it'll continue to do so long long after its swallowed THAT one up.


I find this last bit short-sighted.
The solar system is large enough to dedicate a trojan point to waste consolidation.
I fully believe, once we get nano-assembler technology figured out, WasteManagement may become one of the richest MINING corporations in the world.
All the elements you need for civic live, all collected in one spot: your local landfill.


When we get nano assembler technology sorted out, nobody is going to notice a few million metric tons of rock when we can dismantle MOONS. Or turn the planet into a solid ball of infinitely recycling nanomachines thanks to a gray goo scenario.


You don't dig for gold in an iron mine. No point in throwing it beyond our reach if you don't have to, and so long as the possibility of recycling it might become cost competitive in the not so distant future.
Again, the solar system is vast. Putting it in one place to mine later, (assuming cheap intra-system drive) makes more sense than putting it on a terminal orbit around the sun.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:09 pm 
Offline
Safari Exhibit
Safari Exhibit

Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:32 pm
Posts: 133
Kendrakirai wrote:
Although, remember that Cindy is 600 years old, and began life in the Celeschuul system; she'd only been through the Wormgate once, when she was sent out to whereveritwas, where Shep lived.


Haven Hive was in the Celeschul system; a part of its massive orbital industries. Bristlecone made a point of noting that prior to the end parts of Force Multiplication, she had never been outside the system - she has blockaded the wormgate several times, but never passed through it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:27 pm 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:10 am
Posts: 328
Barmaglot wrote:
Kendrakirai wrote:
Although, remember that Cindy is 600 years old, and began life in the Celeschuul system; she'd only been through the Wormgate once, when she was sent out to whereveritwas, where Shep lived.


Haven Hive was in the Celeschul system; a part of its massive orbital industries. Bristlecone made a point of noting that prior to the end parts of Force Multiplication, she had never been outside the system - she has blockaded the wormgate several times, but never passed through it.


Oh! I completely forgot the details of that arc. ...while remembering Cindy is over 600. Okay then!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:36 pm 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:10 am
Posts: 328
Sean wrote:
Kendrakirai wrote:
Sean wrote:

I find this last bit short-sighted.
The solar system is large enough to dedicate a trojan point to waste consolidation.
I fully believe, once we get nano-assembler technology figured out, WasteManagement may become one of the richest MINING corporations in the world.
All the elements you need for civic live, all collected in one spot: your local landfill.


When we get nano assembler technology sorted out, nobody is going to notice a few million metric tons of rock when we can dismantle MOONS. Or turn the planet into a solid ball of infinitely recycling nanomachines thanks to a gray goo scenario.


You don't dig for gold in an iron mine. No point in throwing it beyond our reach if you don't have to, and so long as the possibility of recycling it might become cost competitive in the not so distant future.
Again, the solar system is vast. Putting it in one place to mine later, (assuming cheap intra-system drive) makes more sense than putting it on a terminal orbit around the sun.


What's easier though, parking millions of tons of rock in a Lagrange point, keeping their masses from interacting enough to throw one or more out of it, in the hope that itll become useful at some point in the future, or dropping a nuke on one that kicks it in the general direction of the sun via a nice, predictable orbital arc? There's NO shortage of crap in the solar system to dismantle at the molecular level. The Oort cloud accounts for almost as much mass as the rest of the solar system *combined*, and it's far easier to corral in bite-sized chunks should there be any need for it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:10 pm 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:38 am
Posts: 340
FreeFlier wrote:
Cifer wrote:
I don't think mobility really fits. Cindy implies that humanity first thought they had entered post-scarcity and only afterwards discovered what was missing. The actual first post-scarcity period should thus be what modern-day humanity would consider it - either energy or material goods. I'm leaning towards material goods and thus (the precursors of) fabber technology, which required more energy than anticipated. The question is, was Cindy around to witness that? If not, there may have been even more than three supposed post-scarcity events.
Mobility is obviously a tremendous boon and most likely resulted in the loaner-annie, but I don't see anyone going "If only we could leave Sol System, we would have no shortages of anything anymore!"

That is basically being said in the real world right now: if we can get access to the rest of the Sol system, our troubles will be over.

Uh-huh. :roll:

--FreeFlier
Cheap space flight may have been the first "post"-scarcity point, then, though Cindy wouldn't have been around since it obviously predated her construction beyond Cel-gate.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:07 pm 
Offline
Monkey House Exhibit
Monkey House Exhibit

Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:40 pm
Posts: 569
Location: Land of the webbed feet
Sean wrote:
I find this last bit short-sighted.
The solar system is large enough to dedicate a trojan point to waste consolidation.
I fully believe, once we get nano-assembler technology figured out, WasteManagement may become one of the richest MINING corporations in the world.
All the elements you need for civic live, all collected in one spot: your local landfill.
Kendrakirai wrote:
When we get nano assembler technology sorted out, nobody is going to notice a few million metric tons of rock when we can dismantle MOONS. Or turn the planet into a solid ball of infinitely recycling nanomachines thanks to a gray goo scenario.
Sean wrote:
You don't dig for gold in an iron mine. No point in throwing it beyond our reach if you don't have to, and so long as the possibility of recycling it might become cost competitive in the not so distant future.
Again, the solar system is vast. Putting it in one place to mine later, (assuming cheap intra-system drive) makes more sense than putting it on a terminal orbit around the sun.
Kendrakirai wrote:
What's easier though, parking millions of tons of rock in a Lagrange point, keeping their masses from interacting enough to throw one or more out of it, in the hope that itll become useful at some point in the future, or dropping a nuke on one that kicks it in the general direction of the sun via a nice, predictable orbital arc? There's NO shortage of crap in the solar system to dismantle at the molecular level. The Oort cloud accounts for almost as much mass as the rest of the solar system *combined*, and it's far easier to corral in bite-sized chunks should there be any need for it.

And if that rock does not contain gold, or iridium, or some other rare element (just about anything else heavier than iron), you're SOL.

If memory serves, the elements heavier than iron are formed in planetary cores, so debris from stars is significantly lacking in those elements. :?

For truly long-term planning, don't throw things away where you can't recover them.

Though I think I'd pick out a couple of large stoney asteroids and use those for a core to hold the garbage pile together.

OTOH. simply weld the iron shipping containers together.

Gripping hand, inflate a nickel-iron asteroid and stuff the garbage inside.

BTW, this type of recycling is already being done . . . many of the ancient metal mine-smelter areas are reworking or have reworked the ancient slag for metal with newer technology that's better adapted to low-concentration ores than the ancient techniques . . . in some cases, too-rich ores can poison modern refining techniques! And this has been going on for at least 250 years!

--FreeFlier


Last edited by FreeFlier on Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:19 pm 
Offline
Entertainment
Entertainment

Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:01 pm
Posts: 707
FreeFlier wrote:
If memory serves, the elements heavier than iron are formed in planetary cores, so debris from stars is significantly lacking in those elements. :?

Supernovae explosions. And I agree--with any sort of efficient nano-fabbber, throwing away your elemental building blocks is foolish in the extreme.

_________________
I used to be Junius Gallio, until I messed up retyping my password in the Great Password Reset. Nice to be back.

" I gotta stop doing mathematics while sober."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:44 pm 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 10:10 pm
Posts: 344
The great thing about orbit is, unless there's a sufficient mass floating by to create a tidal effect, the trash will tend to collect together. And the more you pile together, the better the cohesion.
So, sure. Inflate that first asteroid. You won't need to inflate a second one, because by the time the first one is full, you can start piling the trash on top and it won't float off.
It may be microgravity, but it'll still be gravity.

I'd suggest one of the jovian trojans. It's not like a ball of trash is going to stink up the vacuum of space. much.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:37 am 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:22 pm
Posts: 211
Kendrakirai wrote:
The Oort cloud accounts for almost as much mass as the rest of the solar system *combined* ...

This does not appear to be true. The older estimates for the mass of the outer Oort were up to 380 Earth masses, but the modern ones are about five Earth masses. And it's very thinly spread.

_________________
Weapon: Meal, Ready to Explode.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:47 am 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:10 am
Posts: 328
Sean wrote:
The great thing about orbit is, unless there's a sufficient mass floating by to create a tidal effect, the trash will tend to collect together. And the more you pile together, the better the cohesion.
So, sure. Inflate that first asteroid. You won't need to inflate a second one, because by the time the first one is full, you can start piling the trash on top and it won't float off.
It may be microgravity, but it'll still be gravity.

I'd suggest one of the jovian trojans. It's not like a ball of trash is going to stink up the vacuum of space. much.


But the other thing about microgravity, especially at Lagrange points, is it's (comparatively) easy to start something moving in the general direction you want it to go. It's much, much harder to stop it once it's moving. And for what? The off chance that you'll want/be able to reconstruct it on the atomic level into something useful generations down the line? When you could use that space for building stable colonies or shipyards or who knows what else? Once that technology exists, sure, recycle the waste material, or just don't let it become waste material in the first place; at that point it's all just mass to be converted into something else.

By the time we can reconstruct things at the atomic level, when we can actually USE that trash (actual garbage, toxic waste, bare rock, whatever) we will not miss a few hundred trillion tons of rock. We'll literally be able to turn planets into whatever we want. We'll either be a multi-star species, if not by then, then very soon after, or we'll SOMEHOW still be constrained in our solar system and doomed regardless; it would just take slightly longer to exhaust the mass of the system.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:51 am 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:10 am
Posts: 328
John Dallman wrote:
Kendrakirai wrote:
The Oort cloud accounts for almost as much mass as the rest of the solar system *combined* ...

This does not appear to be true. The older estimates for the mass of the outer Oort were up to 380 Earth masses, but the modern ones are about five Earth masses. And it's very thinly spread.


That seems like an extremely small estimate for something that encircles the solar system, and routinely spits out comets, and has for billions of years. 'Extremely thinly spread' in this case suggests a density not much better than *Normal interplanetary space*.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:08 am 
Offline
Monkey House Exhibit
Monkey House Exhibit

Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:40 pm
Posts: 569
Location: Land of the webbed feet
Kendrakirai wrote:
. . . By the time we can reconstruct things at the atomic level, when we can actually USE that trash (actual garbage, toxic waste, bare rock, whatever) we will not miss a few hundred trillion tons of rock. We'll literally be able to turn planets into whatever we want. We'll either be a multi-star species, if not by then, then very soon after, or we'll SOMEHOW still be constrained in our solar system and doomed regardless; it would just take slightly longer to exhaust the mass of the system.

So you're depending on the creation of mass transmutation of elements in an economical manner.

What are you going to do if that doesn't happen?

Kendrakirai wrote:
John Dallman wrote:
Kendrakirai wrote:
The Oort cloud accounts for almost as much mass as the rest of the solar system *combined* ...
This does not appear to be true. The older estimates for the mass of the outer Oort were up to 380 Earth masses, but the modern ones are about five Earth masses. And it's very thinly spread.
That seems like an extremely small estimate for something that encircles the solar system, and routinely spits out comets, and has for billions of years. 'Extremely thinly spread' in this case suggests a density not much better than *Normal interplanetary space*.

"An enormous wasteland, as vast as television, and with even less content."

--FreeFlier


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:04 am 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:10 am
Posts: 328
FreeFlier wrote:
Kendrakirai wrote:
. . . By the time we can reconstruct things at the atomic level, when we can actually USE that trash (actual garbage, toxic waste, bare rock, whatever) we will not miss a few hundred trillion tons of rock. We'll literally be able to turn planets into whatever we want. We'll either be a multi-star species, if not by then, then very soon after, or we'll SOMEHOW still be constrained in our solar system and doomed regardless; it would just take slightly longer to exhaust the mass of the system.

So you're depending on the creation of mass transmutation of elements in an economical manner.

What are you going to do if that doesn't happen?


*I'm* not, I'm saying that if that doesn't happen, there's nothing we can do with bare rock anyhow, and more energy would be spent trying to store it somewhere than just kicking it off into the sun.

What use is there in moving an empty husk of rock, with no or far too little ore left, into an area that could be better used for a colony? If we are in such dire straits that we need a mere hundred trillion tons of rock, we're doomed anyhow, because it suggests we have literally HARVESTED THE SOLAR SYSTEM down to NOTHING, and yet, we're still trapped here. We've eaten everything, and there's no escape to the stars.

FreeFlier wrote:
Kendrakirai wrote:
John Dallman wrote:
This does not appear to be true. The older estimates for the mass of the outer Oort were up to 380 Earth masses, but the modern ones are about five Earth masses. And it's very thinly spread.
That seems like an extremely small estimate for something that encircles the solar system, and routinely spits out comets, and has for billions of years. 'Extremely thinly spread' in this case suggests a density not much better than *Normal interplanetary space*.

"An enormous wasteland, as vast as television, and with even less content."

--FreeFlier


A pithy quote, but five earth masses spread over light-days seems RIDICULOUSLY sparse. Its not an Oort cloud at that density, it's an Oort dust speckling.

(incidentally, it is a pain in the ass to edit quoted messages on an iPad, ugh.)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:39 am 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:22 pm
Posts: 211
Kendrakirai wrote:
That seems like an extremely small estimate for something that encircles the solar system, and routinely spits out comets, and has for billions of years.

Say it's produced five billion comets so far, one for each year of the solar system's life, in round numbers. Halley's comet is reasonably new and has a mass of about 3x10E14 kg. An Earth mass is 6x10E24 kg. Total mass of comets to date is a quarter of an Earth mass.
Quote:
'Extremely thinly spread' in this case suggests a density not much better than *Normal interplanetary space*.

Far, far thinner.

_________________
Weapon: Meal, Ready to Explode.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:08 pm 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:35 pm
Posts: 235
Kendrakirai wrote:
*I'm* not, I'm saying that if that doesn't happen, there's nothing we can do with bare rock anyhow, and more energy would be spent trying to store it somewhere than just kicking it off into the sun.

Orbital mechanics makes kicking stuff into the Sun a lot harder than you think. You can't just give something a little nudge sunward, you need to radically change its orbit which takes a lot of energy, IIRC almost as much if not more so than ejecting the object from the system entirely.

And "bare rock" has a fair number of uses like radiation/meteoroid shielding and structural material (not as good as metal, but its a lot cheaper).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:19 pm 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 8:53 pm
Posts: 304
If nothing else an asteroid that has been mined out will probably make a convenient spot to build a habitat.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:14 pm 
Offline
Reptile House Exhibit
Reptile House Exhibit

Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 10:10 pm
Posts: 344
Arcanestomper wrote:
If nothing else an asteroid that has been mined out will probably make a convenient spot to build a habitat.


Unless it was strip-mined, but the gravel might still make either a decent building material for a habitat, or a rather socially inappropriate reaction mass.

Also, why are you saying rock is worthless? If nothing else, Silicon is valuable. Granted, Carbon is probably far more valuable, especially in space.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group