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 Post subject: 2018-02-28: hypocracy
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:03 pm 
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Whatever happened to "Do not underestimate my willingness to accept collateral damage during an argument"?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:07 pm 
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Ehhh, doesn't mean you'd actively try to cause collateral damage.

Still, funny how Petey's been doing everything exactly wrong so far.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:15 pm 
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Restless Soul wrote:
Ehhh, doesn't mean you'd actively try to cause collateral damage.

Still, funny how Petey's been doing everything exactly wrong so far.

it's almost as if this is a distraction...

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:21 pm 
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I would have titled the thread "Hostage situation", because that's what I wanted to ask about: Did Petey forget to bried Iafa? Because Iafa has hostages, willing ones, I suppose, but right now they are hostages.

Restless Soul wrote:
Ehhh, doesn't mean you'd actively try to cause collateral damage.

Still, funny how Petey's been doing everything exactly wrong so far.


What would be the right reaction in your opinion then? To me Chinook has entered the self-angering spiral (what with editing memories) which means that she can't be calmed down, she needs to be taken down, non-lethally if possible, permanently if not.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:08 am 
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There are a few telling things about Chinook's reaction. The first is she hasn't grasped the fact that by declaring she is going to destroy the long guns she has declared war on the galaxy, the toughs probably have a few long guns of their own after all. And third that it's not like Iafa is alone in that ship. There are a bunch of Tough's on the Breath Weapon she would be killing if she killed him.

That said she could fairly easily kill him with a low powered long gun shot given he's sitting right there in targeting range. And it's not like a hyper intelligent AI needs a lot of time to calculate minimum collateral damage angles. So this is slightly optimistic.

M[i]ech wrote:
I would have titled the thread "Hostage situation", because that's what I wanted to ask about: Did Petey forget to bried Iafa? Because Iafa has hostages, willing ones, I suppose, but right now they are hostages.

Restless Soul wrote:
Ehhh, doesn't mean you'd actively try to cause collateral damage.

Still, funny how Petey's been doing everything exactly wrong so far.


What would be the right reaction in your opinion then? To me Chinook has entered the self-angering spiral (what with editing memories) which means that she can't be calmed down, she needs to be taken down, non-lethally if possible, permanently if not.


Implying that the people Chinook cares about are hostages is probably just about the worse thing you could tell her at this point.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:45 am 
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Mech wrote:
I would have titled the thread "Hostage situation", because that's what I wanted to ask about: Did Petey forget to bried Iafa? Because Iafa has hostages, willing ones, I suppose, but right now they are hostages.

Restless Soul wrote:
Ehhh, doesn't mean you'd actively try to cause collateral damage.

Still, funny how Petey's been doing everything exactly wrong so far.


What would be the right reaction in your opinion then? To me Chinook has entered the self-angering spiral (what with editing memories) which means that she can't be calmed down, she needs to be taken down, non-lethally if possible, permanently if not.


He should have started with not taking an obviously rhetorical question literally. Then he should not have ignored Putzho's warning to stop talking. Then he shouldn't have tried to have Iafa betray her. Not to say that his recent attitude of "Oh my God you meat bags, why won't you just bow to my superior speed and intellect, and just do what I tell you!" has not been too endearing, either. "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools" is an [i]evil overlord quote, remember.

Yes, Chinook is in a self-angering spiral, but literally anything Petey has done so far has exacerbated it, rather than helped. I mean, sure, to him, now with Laz-5 backups, people are just a reusable resource. But that's not an attitude you want to have around someone who's just lost someone they cared for.


Last edited by Restless Soul on Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:12 pm 
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Restless Soul wrote:
Yes, Chinook is in a self-angering spiral, but literally anything Petey has done so far has exacerbated it, rather than helped. I mean, sure, to him, now with Laz-5 backups, people are just a reusable resource. But that's not an attitude you want to have around someone who's just lost someone they cared for.

Not defending Petey here, but don't forget he is a psychobear AI designed with BIOS-level racism and an utterly undying loyalty to the psychobears. I doubt empathy for others and a caring attitude fell anywhere else on the spec document other than the activation criteria for the penalty clauses. He's just not designed for it.

Putzho, being a former living mind of a soft, squishy male of a species whose girls do all the fighting, has that in spades and that's why he was trying to get Petey to close mouth, activate brain.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:38 pm 
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Bruce the Loon wrote:
Restless Soul wrote:
Yes, Chinook is in a self-angering spiral, but literally anything Petey has done so far has exacerbated it, rather than helped. I mean, sure, to him, now with Laz-5 backups, people are just a reusable resource. But that's not an attitude you want to have around someone who's just lost someone they cared for.

Not defending Petey here, but don't forget he is a psychobear AI designed with BIOS-level racism and an utterly undying loyalty to the psychobears. I doubt empathy for others and a caring attitude fell anywhere else on the spec document other than the activation criteria for the penalty clauses. He's just not designed for it.

Putzho, being a former living mind of a soft, squishy male of a species whose girls do all the fighting, has that in spades and that's why he was trying to get Petey to close mouth, activate brain.


Remember Petey is the AI who once took the comment about the hair making Ob'enn angry literally and shaved a group of them naked in order to test the theory.

He's super smart, but he's not the absolute best at anticipating emotional reactions.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:13 pm 
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Bruce the Loon wrote:
Restless Soul wrote:
Yes, Chinook is in a self-angering spiral, but literally anything Petey has done so far has exacerbated it, rather than helped. I mean, sure, to him, now with Laz-5 backups, people are just a reusable resource. But that's not an attitude you want to have around someone who's just lost someone they cared for.

Not defending Petey here, but don't forget he is a psychobear AI designed with BIOS-level racism and an utterly undying loyalty to the psychobears. I doubt empathy for others and a caring attitude fell anywhere else on the spec document other than the activation criteria for the penalty clauses. He's just not designed for it.

Putzho, being a former living mind of a soft, squishy male of a species whose girls do all the fighting, has that in spades and that's why he was trying to get Petey to close mouth, activate brain.


That was Post Dated Check Loan Petey, when he transferred himself to biological body, he lost a whole lot of hardware programming and hardcoded impulses.

Arcanestomper wrote:
Remember Petey is the AI who once took the comment about the hair making Ob'enn angry literally and shaved a group of them naked in order to test the theory.


A true scientist. That's why I like him.

Restless Soul wrote:
Mech wrote:
I would have titled the thread "Hostage situation", because that's what I wanted to ask about: Did Petey forget to bried Iafa? Because Iafa has hostages, willing ones, I suppose, but right now they are hostages.

Restless Soul wrote:
Ehhh, doesn't mean you'd actively try to cause collateral damage.

Still, funny how Petey's been doing everything exactly wrong so far.


What would be the right reaction in your opinion then? To me Chinook has entered the self-angering spiral (what with editing memories) which means that she can't be calmed down, she needs to be taken down, non-lethally if possible, permanently if not.


He should have started with not taking an obviously rhetorical question literally. Then he should not have ignored Putzho's warning to stop talking. Then he shouldn't have tried to have Iafa betray her. Not to say that his recent attitude of "Oh my God you meat bags, why won't you just bow to my superior speed and intellect, and just do what I tell you!" has not been too endearing, either. "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools" is an [i]evil overlord quote, remember.

Yes, Chinook is in a self-angering spiral, but literally anything Petey has done so far has exacerbated it, rather than helped. I mean, sure, to him, now with Laz-5 backups, people are just a reusable resource. But that's not an attitude you want to have around someone who's just lost someone they cared for.


So despite not lording over anyone I am an Evil Overlord too? Because I keep muttering "Why am I surrounded by these incompetent fools" with increasing frequency.

Joking aside, Chinook went completely bonkers. She's completly irrational. Anything Petey did would have angered her eventually, trying to please psycho never ends well. All Petey said was that they have copies so they are not gone forever, by the time he took rhetorical question literally, Chinook has already jumped off the edge. When someone strawmans or implies statements like she did, it's a sign that as far as logic and sense goes, they are already gone.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:00 am 
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M[i]ech wrote:
Joking aside, Chinook went completely bonkers. She's completly irrational. Anything Petey did would have angered her eventually, trying to please psycho never ends well. All Petey said was that they have copies so they are not gone forever, by the time he took rhetorical question literally, Chinook has already jumped off the edge. When someone strawmans or implies statements like she did, it's a sign that as far as logic and sense goes, they are already gone.


All I'm saying is, you try acting Petey's way at a funeral, and see what happens. There's a time and place for everything. A time of grief is not a place for cold logic, even if there are backups available. Someone as smart as Petey should maybe have realized that at some point. Elf would have punched him in the face, too, had he been there to start this when she was grieving over her husband and pointing out that "I want the one who apologized".

This isn't only about Chinook being emotionally unstable, it's about Petey still not having internalized what the word "emotionally" means and that like it or not, it's something that exists in civilizations and can't be suppressed by his cold logic. Unless he proceeds to wipe out all civilization, of course.

Late edit: Quotes messed up.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:41 am 
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Not to mention there was a brief moment in time where Chinook witnessed the deaths but was still sane. In that moment Petey's actions and words could've completely changed the outcome. If Puhtzo took the lead and offered condolences and sympathy, Chinook may have accepted her grief.


But then again she has in the past vowed to kill all that hurt her friends and that may be hard-coded.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:48 am 
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I'm not sure that sympathetic words could have changed the outcome. Like you said, Chinook had already vowed to avenge her friends by any means necessary, and boy does she have the means. The problem is she's not calibrating her response, not trying to find out who fired the long gun that killed her friends before retaliating, and is instead preparing to basically end galactic civilization.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:58 pm 
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Restless Soul wrote:
All I'm saying is, you try acting Petey's way at a funeral, and see what happens..

Why would you bother having a funeral for people who aren't dead yet?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:11 pm 
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evileeyore wrote:
Restless Soul wrote:
All I'm saying is, you try acting Petey's way at a funeral, and see what happens..

Why would you bother having a funeral for people who aren't dead yet?

For the same reason why you would have a funeral for a beloved pet before going to the pet store to buy another.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:52 pm 
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grahamf wrote:
evileeyore wrote:
Restless Soul wrote:
All I'm saying is, you try acting Petey's way at a funeral, and see what happens..

Why would you bother having a funeral for people who aren't dead yet?

For the same reason why you would have a funeral for a beloved pet before going to the pet store to buy another.


Pretty much. A pet fish. Something with minimal detectable individuality, but that still has a survival instinct.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:52 am 
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grahamf wrote:
For the same reason why you would have a funeral for a beloved pet before going to the pet store to buy another.

Except the pet is actually dead. Not just out of circulation for a few months. If it were (IE said pet was backed up via REDREO) I wouldn't bother with a funeral. Just feed the remains into the recyclotron...

And pets have as much personality and individuality as people, indeed, I consider my pets to be as important as other people.

In this case the people aren't dead (yet*). Just out of circulation for a month.



* Once Chinook and the Can Full Of Sky is blown up and the back-ups are thus vaporized, then they will be dead.



Sean wrote:
Pretty much. A pet fish. Something with minimal detectable individuality, but that still has a survival instinct.

Why would I bother having a funeral for a damp screen saver? (IE a fish isn't on even on the level of pet as far as I'm concerned. It's a pretty picture that takes more money and work than is worth the effort.)


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:21 am 
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grahamf wrote:
evileeyore wrote:
Restless Soul wrote:
All I'm saying is, you try acting Petey's way at a funeral, and see what happens..

Why would you bother having a funeral for people who aren't dead yet?

For the same reason why you would have a funeral for a beloved pet before going to the pet store to buy another.


This may be the thing. Grahamf, do you think that the backups are entirely new people, or just, as they say, 'out of circulation' for a month?

No judgement here, but it may help keep this discussion from getting...spicier than it needs to be, to know what page everyone is on.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:44 am 
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Kendrakirai wrote:
grahamf wrote:
evileeyore wrote:
Why would you bother having a funeral for people who aren't dead yet?

For the same reason why you would have a funeral for a beloved pet before going to the pet store to buy another.


This may be the thing. Grahamf, do you think that the backups are entirely new people, or just, as they say, 'out of circulation' for a month?

No judgement here, but it may help keep this discussion from getting...spicier than it needs to be, to know what page everyone is on.

It doesn't matter what everyone thinks, as much as it is to figure out Chinook's frame of mind.
immortality from backup is still a pretty new thing, the last time it happenned for Tagon it took them many months to ressurect him and everyone was mourning and put up a statue in honor of his sacrifice. No matter what, they are not going to look at the destroyed ship and go "huh, lets pop some corpsicles into the microwave later" without processing the entire thing as a massive death. The fact of the matter is that while petey was telling Chinook it was a cold logic situation he was in the wrong - if he handled it with more tact Chinook may be processing her grief better, or at least would still trust Petey enough that he can stop her going too far.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:56 pm 
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grahamf wrote:
It doesn't matter what everyone thinks, as much as it is to figure out Chinook's frame of mind.

Chinook is crazy-pants. It's unlikely there would have been anyway to stop her from going full on "I will destroy everything" mode. At best they could have slowed her down a bit giving them more time to off-switch her, at worst they'd have convinced her to slow down and then be subtler about the start of the end of this cycle (IE she realizes they would oppose her, but remains 'sane' enough to plan it out and first strike everything that could stop her at once).

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immortality from backup is still a pretty new thing...

Yes, and only two* characters in comic have shown that they've fully embraced this new reality. And one of them is dead.

* Maybe three. Putzho hasn't really weighed in yet on his position, but I'm willing to accept him as having embraced the idea that 'death' is only death once all possibility of revival is gone.

Quote:
...the last time it happenned for Tagon it took them many months to ressurect him and everyone was mourning and put up a statue in honor of his sacrifice.

Because Karl had difficulty accepting the new reality and Kaff had no Advanced Directives on file dictating "Yes you morons, resurrect me".

Presumably the later has been corrected by now (and the former got therapy).

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The fact of the matter is that while petey was telling Chinook it was a cold logic situation...

More than just cold logic, it's the new paradigm.


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