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The Nightstar Zoo • View topic - Reality and existence

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 Post subject: Reality and existence
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 9:35 pm 


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 9:56 pm 
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Knight of Daisies, Tulip Slayer
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Joined: Sat May 11, 2002 3:03 am
Posts: 1621
Location: Sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
F = ma

It's real, by your definition, but it doesn't exist.

Not until someone pulls the trigger and sends 135 grains of lead flying straight at you at 3300 feet per second.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:19 pm 


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:21 pm 


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 1:41 pm 


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:56 pm 


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:14 pm 


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:44 pm 


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 7:08 pm 


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 7:29 pm 
KC - I think I know what you're trying to get at. What you need to do is find Moritz Schlick's paper entitled "Positivism and Realism."

...I've been trying to find a copy online and I can't.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 7:39 pm 


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:26 pm 


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 11:25 pm 


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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2005 2:48 am 


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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 4:11 am 


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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 10:18 am 


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 1:26 am 


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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 12:29 pm 


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 4:29 pm 


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 9:35 pm 
First of all, there's a difference between the science known as physics and the actual laws of physics.
And I feel we're incapable of understanding them in total not because of some magical mental barrier (though that's part of it; how many people really understand how the 7th dimension works?), so much as the fact that there doesn't seem to be any visible limit to them.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 11:13 am 
When discussing math one must keep in mind that numbers are only what they are because that is what a majority of humans say that they are. Imaginary numbers are a good examble. I stands for the square root of negative one, but if you got enough people to agree with you you could say that one is actually the square root of negative one. Another example, which I got from the book 1984, could be that while currently people would say that there is one smilely here 8-) with the right people saying otherwise it could actually be called three. Therefore numbers exist, but are only real for as long as we say they are, at which point they will also cease to exist.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 3:00 pm 


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 4:03 pm 
Changing the name of something doesn't change the thing.
A rose by any other name...


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:04 pm 


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 7:01 pm 
Gen. Burnsides,

I think you may be missing the entire concept of mathematics. I can't tell if your point is that you can choose to call three by some other name, in which case you're arguing nomenclature, which is orthogonal to the current argument<sup>1</sup>, or if you mean to suggest that mathematics itself isn't invariant as most people are taught to believe. If you mean the latter, then let me assure you of your error; mathematics is indeed invariant between cultures, provided both cultures are advanced enough to develop it.

There is really only one major leap of faith you have to take in order to prove the existence of "three". You have to believe in the existence of "one". The unit. Anything, really, as long as you accept that it exists and can be dealt with as an individual thing. You can deny that anything at all exists, and it indeed becomes impossible to count things.

However, if you acknowledge that something (let's call it '1') exists, then you can put another something with it<sup>2</sup> (we'll call this activity '+'), and then yet another something, and you have more than one somethings. For convenience, we all agree that this is '3'. You can choose to call it speeblarg, or "one", but nomenclature alone cannot change the fundamental fact that there are --> :!: :!: :!: <-- this many.

The actual basis of mathematics, at least as discussed in this thread, is rooted in set theory, and contains a small fixed number of "postulates" which are generally considered to be self-evident, but must ultimately be taken on faith. Everything else follows logically and deductively from these postulates. If you want to successfully attack mathematics, you have to do it here.


<sup>1</sup> If you do not start with a common assumed nomenclature, then no communication is possible. Therefore, to argue that three may not be three due to a difference in nomenclature is spurious, and not a useful argument. The essence of communication (and thus the argument) carries with it an underlying assumption that all parties have a common vocabulary. You can neither communicate, nor (by induction) argue without one<sup>3</sup>.

<sup>2</sup> Not completely true - you can also deny the possibility of addition, as that is yet another of the fundamental postulates. However, I was trying to keep the argument simple.

<sup>3</sup> Ironically, this is the same spot where I see the fundamental disconnect form in many a political or religious "argument". Two sides will argue logical extensions which are both true from their point of view, because they did not begin by agreeing on common assumptions and definitions.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:41 pm 
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Vorpal Bunny Slipper
Vorpal Bunny Slipper

Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 2:54 am
Posts: 2707

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Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, grab es tief unten im Keller ein.
Später dann graben es andere aus, und nennen dein Haus das Knochenhaus.
Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, leg auch ihre weißen Schädel hinein.
Mit Beton gießt du es aus, das Fundament vom Knochenhaus.
Scharr, scharr, verscharr das Gebein, da ist noch Platz, da paßt noch wer rein.
Hier tobte sich der Teufel aus, unten im Keller im Knochenhaus.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:26 pm 


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