The Nightstar Zoo

There is a possibility that I might get put on a panel at Fandemonium. The proposed panel is "Women who like gaming and/or Science Fiction." So now my question is this: If you were to attend such a panel what questions would you want answered? Are there issues you'd like to see addressed? Are there kinds of stories you'd want to have told?

I'm just trying to get a feel for what kind of stuff I should prepare for this, so input is appreciated.

Thanks!

Well not being a female I can only speculate. But there are the questions we asked ourselves around the gaming table. The conversation inevitably went something like this:

Player 1 "Hey, how come there's no girls in our group?"
Player 2 "Yeah! I hate playing the pretty female bard all the time!"
Player 1 *snort* "Oh sure you do! How come you always get awarded in character XP all the time then?"
Player 2 *sniff* "Well, if you're going to do something, do it right."
DM: "Hush you two. Reason is, there's no such thing as woman gamers. They're allergic to geeks."
Player 3 *groan* "Oh, I'm going to be virgin forever ..."

Not a question really, just a guy's take on the lack of females in gaming. But now I know better, as some of the most intelligent (and ruthless) folks I've ever DM'd have been female.

I'm not headed to Fandemonium, but I'd suggest looking at maybe figuring out why women game, versus why men game - and what sorts of games result when you have men and women at the same table for tabletop RPGs, versus live action RPGs, versus the computer-run type. Or various other types of games, if you're looking at that.

And how about how women are portrayed in sci-fi? By female versus male authors, and if there's any real difference there? Now that's one that could get some good McCaffrey, Moon, and some of the newer authors versus people like Asimov, Heinlein, and the newer breed like Gibson, David Weber (of the Honor Harrington series), and others.

Dromin: That's actually exactly the kind of input that I need. Obviously I've never played in an all-male group and so I can't know by observational evidence how having women there changes the game.

Haesslich: Excellent ideas. *scribbles notes*

Here is a question for male gamers out there. Does having a woman player in the game change the way you play? Is the game more enjoyable or less?

And a question for women gamers. Did you feel social pressure to NOT play? Did it cause you to quit? If you stuck with it, why did you stick with it?

I'm surprised that there are guys that want women in their group... it sounds like it'd be a distraction. For me, gaming is a guy thing. Like the proverbial poker night, having women there would sort of ruin things.

Unless she was really really hot.

Based on the experience of me and several of my friends... we didn't have any girls in our group primarily because none of us knew any girls who liked spending lunch hours playing cards, chess, and whatnot. Hour-or-less social games.

The secondary reason was because those girls who sometimes got invited just didn't have any common interests, and wandered off without the desire to gain such interest.

The third reason is what Jart said. Once one of the guys in our group hit that point in puberty, girls were suddenly a very strong distraction to him, and it would not only take his eyes off the game, but also his mind. It was bad enough that a girl couldn't even walk by without him blushing and needing a few moments before he could play his turn in a game of Crazy Eights, to say nothing of what it did to his chess strategy. It did, sort-of, spoil things for the rest of us.

In contrast, I play regularly in a group that is for all intents and purposes headed by a female. I used to have an all-guys group, and I've noticed that unlike that group, the one with women tends to have considerable amounts of actual RP, in fact more of that than there is dungeon crawling and what have you.

Vorn

Here's another question, Does the age/maturity level of the players make a difference in whether or not the women are good additions or only distractions?

Experiences from the front lines....

In high school, I was part of an all-guys group (mainly because we didn't know many women, but even when some of us dated, no women were brought in). As an experiment, we invited a couple of female friends who were curious. The game went all right, but afterwards, one of the women played the drama card said "you pay more attention to me in game than you do at school...." She got rather emotional about it. The other women was only marginally interested in the game, and was fairly disruptive. (I suspect she was just moral support for the first woman, and didn't really want to be there.) Neither was invited back, and we went back to our caffeine-and-sugar fueled gaming.

In college, on the other hand, I was part of a campaign where the women outnumbered the men 4 to 2, and the GM was female. This campaign was serious: serious role-playing, serious plots, an well-prepared GM, the works. As Hasselich mentioned, more role-playing happens with a mixed group---it isn't mixed in with the antics of an all-guy group.

As long as the hormones stay in control, it seems that gaming is better with women. But then, it may have just been having the right GM.

The question I would ask, of course, is: Presuming such girls actually exist -- can you hook me up with one? Pleeeze?

Well, if you used just my gaming group as your sample space, you'd be forced to conclude that women play RPGs so they can pretend to wield huge, phallic weapons and indulge in gratuitous bloodshed.

Catharsis: Unless I'm imaginary, Girls who game definitely exist. As for hooking you up with one, I don't personally know any who are available because I haven't been moving in gaming circles for a long time.

The question you have to ask yourself is this: Is whether or not she games your primary eliminating factor in a person you want to be with?

As far as gaming goes, it depends:

Age and maturity levels definitely affect things - as a kid doing D&D 1st Ed back in grade school, none of the lasses were interested, and we may not have been up to handling them anyhow, at least as players.

In high school, I didn't game much - but I taught my sister how to play Magic: the Gathering, and she was interested in the card-game thing for a while. She hung out with a lot of guys though, the way I hung out with members of the opposite gender.

In university, things changed again; even if the group I was in didn't have any women, we did more RP than hack and slash, though we had a strong combat component involved as well. This was different from my elementary school and high school days, where games of this nature would involve more hacking and slashing.

Now, online... that's a whole other story - when you can't tell if the person's a male or female gamer, then the differences tend to disappear; the guys either act as stereotypical women (at least, how they see women) or else they get into RP as a male or female role, without qualms. Women can do the hack and slash, though the social aspects of the game, in my experience, are as important as the exploration and hack-and-slashing.

I wouldn't say that groups need women to roleplay more, but they do tend more towards roleplay, especially when headed by female gamemasters, since this is communication and shared storytelling as much as anything. Guys can treat it either as an excuse to show their strength and superiority - which is where powergamers come in, both tabletop and online - or else they get into the social aspects as much as anything else, when they're unfettered by the need to be strictly 'male' in behavior.

Live-action RPGs I've yet to do much with, but they attract a different sort of gamer entirely, from what I've seen.

It can change the way you game, naturally. You get a different dynamic going with a mixed group. What really hits it is this next question...



Definitely yes. The jokes aren't typically so 'blue'.

But in all honesty, I find that it depends more on the person than the gender. Some people are gamers, while others are just not going to be able to pull it off. Not to mention that my tastes in gaming have changed as I've gotten older. If I want 'Monster Smash", that's when I load up an RPG computer game like Diablo or Dungeon Siege. But when I want interaction, role playing and stretching my mind... I prefer paper and pencil. Or IRC, where I've been gaming for many years with many different people, freeform and with rules.

My ladyfriend decided a few months back that she wanted to get back into tabletop gaming again. She'd left the group she last played with since they had gone to 'hack and slash', and that's something we've all given up on for the most part before George the Second lost the monarchy to Perot's Giant Sucking Sound. Not only that, but her daughter was getting into various games, and getting a bit... well... out there. Just like we've all gone through our Munchkin Days, I'm sure.

So Sue's got a bi-weekly game of AD&D running, with her husband, their daughter, a few of her friends and myself. Ken and I are old hands, of course, and we have a lot of fun shifting in and out of character, but we're doing a bit of 'instruction', too. Meghan's enjoying it, too, and so are her friends... When they can make it, at least.

The past session was a bit of a surprise for us, though, since everyone else cancelled, but I took it as an opportunity for making another campaign. Good times.... But enough reminiscing.

I used to try and recruit women to game, but I figured out that some just weren't into it, no matter who they were friends with. But I've gamed with several women over the years, and I know they change the dynamic and the style of how I game.... and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Take care!

I'm a female gamer who has been gaming for quite some time (tabletop rpgs). I've seen the good, the bad and the ugly when it comes to having women in groups with men.

I was first introduced to gaming by a male friend in high school, and it appealed to me and another female friend as we were interested in acting.

Do I think having a female player can effect a gaming group? Yes. Of course I think that *any* player can effect the group that they're in, either positively or negatively.

Does maturity play a big role? A huge YES to that. Not so much age as maturity level. I've been in games where players spent large amount of times staring at my chest, having their characters hit on mine even though it was really out of character, expecting me to bring food to sessions, etc.

Have I felt social pressure not to game? In a way I'd say yes. Telling people I meet that I game is one of the hardest things for me. It's just not something people expect women to do. But I love it too much to stop just because it's not the norm.

Over the past few years my friends and I have managed to encourage many women to game, some loved it, others were neutral, some didn't enjoy it at all. Just how it goes.

Gaming does often seem to be a 'guys only' type thing with a lot of people. Thing is, a lot of male gamers just aren't interested in having female gamers around. Having a female GM makes a real difference, too, as 'blue' doesn't even begin to describe some of the online sessions I've been in where the GM was unaware I was a woman. o.O

And, what is this panel about? Is it a panel for women who like to game, or male gamers who are curious about the female perspective?

or is it for marketing execs who hope that potential female gamers are a large market and want to know how to tap them.

It is going to be a panel at a small con in Boise Idaho called Fandemonium. I don't expect any gaming execs to be there. Since the demographic for cons seems to be heavily male I suspect the audience will be primarily curious males. Hopefully we'll attract at least a few female gamers though so that the panelists feel a little less "on display"

One title possibility for the panel is: Female Gamers, Female Sci-fi lovers, and other imaginary beasts.

Chani: I'm looking forward to the chance to share experiences and just chat in person. See you in Boise!

Oh, I gotta say I love that title.

Okay now I've gotten a good feel for the issues with women and gaming, what about women and science fiction? 20 years ago it seemed to definitely fit into the Realm of Men, but now with loads of female writers and strong female characters and popular Sci-fi blockbusters, can that really be said to be true anymore?

Is there even an issue to discuss? I ask this because, to me, absorption in Science Fiction seems as natural as breathing. I know there are women who don't enjoy it, but there are men who don't like it either. Has the entrance of women into Science Fiction changed the genre?

I know that there are undoubtedly entire books on this subject, but I'm wondering what the average fan thinks/ observes.

What, you mean there's supposed to be less potty humour with women in your gaming group?

I'll have to explain that to Sarah and her voluminous collection of spooge jokes and masturbatory euphemisms sometime.

It's like fantasy, but with technology and (at least with really good sci-fi) a focus on human themes and how that is affected by the technology in question. The technology's either a backdrop or a prop, but the stories are usually the same... just twisted a little, because of the effects technology may have.

However, I do wonder if some of the early women writers have written their female characters to stereotypes, to fit them into the existing market, or if they've expanded it somewhat - Sassinak of the Planet Pirates series of books is almost indistinguishable from Elizabeth Moon's Heris Serrano series, focused on a character of the same name, and David Weber's been writing Honor Harrington for years. But are they expanding the genre any, or are they playing on the strong hero/heroine stereotype that could, with a few twists and substitution of gender-specific terms, be interchangable?

Maybe you should do some looking around or asking others during the panel to see if that's a feasable position, or if someone can demolish it handily.

Hell, L.E. Modesitt Jr's female characters, while stronger, still don't strike me as anything more than sidekicks half the time even with all their useful skills and their otherwise supposed stubborness and independence. Are all male sci-fi writers limited by this Bond Girl/Sidekick mentality? Do female writers play to this as well, in order to sell books?

Well, there's David Weber. Apart from him it seems that Female writers do male charachters far better than male writers do female charachters. Actualy, often female writers do male charachters better than male writers do male charachters, so it may be more a tendancy for male writers to do lousy charachterisation than a failure to write good charachters of the opposite gender.

Modessit's generally does better political intrigue than charachterisations, and he does excellent political intrigue, but I don't recall his male leads being outstanding either.

Ah, but I tend to hang out with ladies... then again, we did exchange words considering beastiality, but it was in character.

Are you implying that the women I game with aren't "ladies"?

Watch it, buster - one of them owns a partisan, and practices with it daily. She might take exception to that.

Asimov and Heinlein are pretty 'bad' at this, as far as such things go, though that may be more typical of their era and the society that shaped them than anything. Susan Calvin's one of Asimov's better characters in this respect, though Jessie Bailey and Gladia Delmarre of the Elijah Bailey books are very 'stereotypical' women of the 1950s.

As far as female writers doing male characters better, I suspect that's more because male characters are a lot easier to write, characterization-wise, since motives can be very simple or complex... and frankly, I find more women understand men than vice-versa, at least to some levels. However, I've also found that some female writers tend to make very 'girly girl' characters, or the stereotypical strong woman type to sell more books.



Modesitt's stories all have the same plot, effectively - the "young man discovers his destiny and himself, and is really good at something" plot theme recurs in the Ecolitan series as well as his original "Forever Hero" trilogy (Dawn for a Distant Earth, The Silent Warrior, In Endless Twilight) and his later fantasy series. Only once or twice has he broken free of this theme (Adiamante is one example), and he keeps writing a similar thing again and again, but varies it enough to make it sell and seem interesting even if the reader recognizes the same themes.

I could be wrong, but I thought that Trigger Argee, Telsey Amberdon, and Nile Etland from James Schmitz were fairly convincing, despite his writing being from the 60's. There are 3 of his books in the free library

Throughout my own library, I have noticed at least one certain theme; most of the stories written by men aren't really about the characters. Of the stories written by women, most of them are only mostly about the characters. With "about the characters" as opposed to "about the world portrayed", or "about the conflicts portrayed", et cetera..

My opinion on this may not be entirely valid, howver, as I have the ability to see the beauty of a wonderful story, even when hidden behind the veil of an unskilled writer. Or director, for that matter. "The Order" tells an excellent story, with all the qualities of a great book, but had an inept director who just couldn't properly bring it to screen.

There are lots of movies that suffer from that affliction. Particularly Sci-fi movies I think. There are lots of really smart dramas out there, but not very many smart sci fi movies.

Fortunately there seem to be increasing numbers of writers, directors, and producers who understand and love the genre. It used to just be Lucas and Spielberg, neither of whom did a good job with female characters. Do we even need to mention Star Trek in reference to non-stereotypical female characters? *shudder*

Well, I just think that some author's have strong characterization and some don't and wether the characters are male or female makes very little difference. Take Terry Prachett's Discworld series Susan Death, and Magrat Garlick both seem to be very 3-Dimensional non stereotypical women to me. But the same can be said of all of his characters. Even his one shot gag characters who make fun of all the fantasy stereotypes are pretty complex.